Saint Seiya Acausality+Causality manipulation?

[SSJRyu1]

I noticed that many of the SS characters had Acausality and some even Causality manipulation on there list of abilities. I couldn't find the reasoning for this and don't recall these abilities being used, so if somebody could explain why this is and bring up relevant scans it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Read this thread https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/331294

 

[SSJRyu1]

Thanks for sharing the thread man. Certainly cool to see that they have the ability. So let me get this right, he is acasual since he is unaffected by his history being altered after getting Athena's blood, and Athena has causality manipulation since she manipulates his history.

So does that mean immunity to history manipulation is basically acausality, and the ability to manipulate history is causality manipulation?

Also to what extent would such causality manipulation be from such a feat, would it give them similar abilities such as GER's or more, or only apply to the shown history manipulation?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I wouldn't say that for every case, but it's a definite posibility.

I mean, Acausality makes you immune to effects of history, cause and effect (shocking, I know) and the like, so I guess it only depends on the scale of the History manipulation.

On those scans it was a Universe level thing.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Alright, so for example lets say somebody is unaffected by alterations in the past, and they can remain unharmed even if the entire past is erased, that would constitute Acausality? And if they can freely alter history directly that would be causality manipulation? It sounds very similar to high end time manipulation and resistance to time manipulation, maybe they are one in the same?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, that would constitute Acausality, very definitely.

If their manipulation of history involves redirecting the cause and effect of things, it would.

"Redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect. "

From the Causality Manipulation power page.

 

[SSJRyu1]

OK thanks for the clarification.

I also had a question about SS Multiverse. I noticed that Chronus is "possibly 2A" What is the thought process behind him being 2A instead of 2B since I don't recall them stating there are infinite timelines/Universes in SS, just a lot or many or something along those lines.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's because Chronos encompasses all of space-time, but also exists beyond it.

 

[SSJRyu1]

So anybody existing beyond space time is 2A?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I'm confused then, why place Chronus that high? Wouldn't he be like Arceus who is 2C, except in his case 2B since we know that the SS verse is at least 2B in size?

 

[Andykhang]

^Existing beyond spacetime is just that, mean you're only a 4thlander. Only when you're destroying stuff is when you're 2-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay.

All of the timelines of Saint Seiya (At least 2-B) are part of Chronos, but he is actually much larger than that. He transcends space-time and the Olympian Gods alltogether, and that likey includes their Kamui forms, and Zeus, Typhon, Gaia and Tartarus might all be 2-B in reality.

If Chronos' transcendence of Space-Time and the Olympian Gods is similar to how the Olympians transcend human reality, he could even be High 2-A.

But we don't know much about him, so that's why he has "Possibly"

 

[Tivanenk]

Chronos is 2-A because he transcends the 4-D spectrum (not just the physical universe, but the entire time axis as well), making him, logically - 5-D. I don't know why he's not High 2-A though.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understand, transcending the 4-D space-time of a universe, could just make a character a higher order of 4-D, not necessarily 5-D, unless explicitly stated as such, especially if there are serious contradictions to this extreme a scale of power.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

As far as I understand, transcending the 4-D space-time of a universe, could just make a character a higher order of 4-D, not necessarily 5-D, unless explicitly stated as such, especially if there are serious contradictions to this extreme a scale of power.

I agree. I personally think Chronos is High 2-A, but there aren't many evidences for it. However, if another 2-A char is introduced, we can likely scale Chronos up from that.

 

[SSJRyu1]

OK, thanks for the input, I understand that he is above the size of the Verse now, but wouldn't that make him At least 2B? I mean as was said it does not make him 5D automatically, so we can't assume he is 5D, or infinitely above 4D power can we? Does it say he is infinitely above the Olympians? iirc it just said he transcends them, which does not necessarily mean he is infinitely above them. I would think at least 2B would be what he has proven so far from the scans ive seen, but of course I'm no expert on SS so there may be proof he is infinitely above the Olympians I don't know about.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He can't be At least 2-B since there's a very big Possibility that Zeus and Typhon are 2-B, and they'd have innumerable variations of them across all timelines, all of which Chronos would have to be superior.

 

[Tivanenk]

Wouldn't At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A be better for Chronos?

 

[SSJRyu1]

But 2B ranges through a huge range.

For example if Hades would have 10 Universes worth of Power currently, and 100 with his god robes, and Zeus was 12 times that as he posses all 12 robes iirc, he would be in the range of 1,200 times Universal, even if we said he were a million times that for whatever reason, he would still be lower end 2B, and even if there were a centillion timelines, each with that, and Chronus is more powerful than all of them combined, it still would only make Chronus At least 2B, nothing suggests Chronus is infinitely above the Olympians to my knowledge, just much stronger.

Is there any proof he is infinitely stronger than the Olympians, 5D, or that there are infinite timelines to scale to him being beyond them? If not I don't see why he should be considered 2A personally.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@SSJRyu1

Your scaling if far too conservative.

Even Cronus is capable of destroying all of the space-time spectrum over a short period of time. He is definitely at a high end 2-C, and Zeus is very likely 2-B.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Aren't we supposed to be conservative here though? I agree Zeus is 2B most likely by scaling, but again 2B is 1001 Universes - 10^500 Universes, even if we said Zeus is a trillion times Universal and there are a centillion timelines each with a Zeus copy, and Chronus is above all them combined, that is still just 10^112 times Universal for all Zeus from all timelines combined, so Chronus would still sit as at least 2B being above that, I haven't seen anything proving he is infinitely above Zeus, it's not impossible but I haven't seen proof for it.

 

[Shining_Trapezohedron]

Artemis have said that Chronos is already transcended the Olympian existence.

But we need more info if we are gonna change Chronos tier so I think the best we could do is keep him at "At least 2-A" until there is more proof of his own power.

 

[SSJRyu1]

true, but transcending them does not necessarily mean being infinitely above them, just above tehm, so personally I don't see why we have him at 2A when he is not proven to be infinitely beyond the Olympians, and the verse is not proven to be infinitely large.

 

[Shining_Trapezohedron]

In one of the beginning chapter, you can see many galaxies in the background. Those are the universe themselves and Chronos is largely above those kind of thing since he had some of the feat to back up his own power. Like Completely shatter Athena shield which is already consider almost unreakable not even Hades sword can break through that thing. And even turn Athena to a baby completely.

To be transcended mean you are already above and beyond. If Chronos is not that Transcended then Artemis wouldnt made that kind of statement.

But I still suggest that we should still wrote him "At least 2-A" until the next dimension can provide us with more detail about him then we can change if he is High 2-B or 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Matthew?

 

[SSJRyu1]

Personally if we go the conservative route At least 2B sounds the most logical, since we have no proof they are infinitely above the Olympians or that the verse has infinite Universes.

Transcendent simply means to be significantly above a being, not always infinitely above. For example Aizen claimed to be transcendent IIRC but is certainly not infinitely above the regular shinigami.

 

[Shining_Trapezohedron]

Aizen by his own definition is already way beyond a regular shinigami already by complete fusion with Hyogoku. Heck, not even Mugetsu can killed him.

Again, we should wait and see about the infinite universe and I dont know about Chronos being 2-B, I think he should be High 2-B for the most part since even an Olympian speak greatly about his power.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes, he is way above them for sure, but not infinitely above them, as that would make him infinitely Universal on a 3D scale and have infinite speed if he were infinitely above them, which isn't the case.

I agree, I suggested he should be "At least 2-B" Which means that he is minimum in 2-B level, possibly more.

 

[Shining_Trapezohedron]

Let wait for Matthew response.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem is this, SSJRyu1.

Chronos exists on a whole other level of existence, far beyond the reality of the Gods, and all of the Saint Seiya universes, timelines and gods.

He IS all of space-time, I.E, the whole spectrum / concept of it. Every space-time continuum, all of past and all of future in every universe is simply a part of him, and is said that he actually transcends space-time altogether.

If he simply was all of space-time, then yeah, at least 2-B would seem acceptable. But he's not. Space-Time itself is just a small portion of Chronos.

Oh, and by the way, one timeline in Saint Seiya is actually larger than Low 2-C in scale, as there are many universe-sized areas in it (Human Universe, Heaven, Underworld, Tartarus, Sea Realm, etc)

Now, let's talk about the Gods who Chronos scales from.

First, there is Cronus, who is capable of destroying all of space-time over minutes. There are innumerable universes in Saint Seiya, so every second he'd be destroying hundreds of space-time continuums to do such a feat (I can get the scans if you want).

Zeus without Kamui curbstomped Cronus, as seem in flashback. Also there is Typhon, who is even stronger than Cronus, but too lost when Zeus went all out (Likely Kamui). Zeus is called All-Mighty and Omnipotent by a whole bunch of characters. There is also Gaia and Tartarus, who are in the same level.

ALL OF THESE BEINGS exist in every single timeline, and Chronos is trancendent over all of them combined + the timelines.

There is also the Christian God, who is 2-A by being stated to be infinitely beyond Lucifer in power, but I don't know if he exists in all timelines at the same time, or one in each. If I had to guess, I'd say one in each.

Chronos is 2-A, plain and simple, saying that he is At least 2-B would be limiting him to Space-Time, which is something he transcends and exists beyond.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well being far above countless 2C or even countless low or mid tier 2B beings still only makes him at least 2B from what I understand.

However the thing with Lucifer and God is interesting, can you show a scan for him being infinitely above Lucifer? Also can you show something that says Chronus is equal or above God? As I can't find scans for those two statements. If you had those two I would agree he should be 2A, otherwise I would think he should be at least 2B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, there is no scan saying that Chronos > God, so it is uncertain.

I can try to get scans from the movie.

 

[Victor2]

they don`t say god is infinitly greater than lucifer, also where does titan cronus states he can destroy all of space-time in minutes? i haven`t been able to find this scan that i`ve been looking for a long time.

 

[SSJRyu1]

OK sounds good. If we can at least get the infinitely stronger one that would at least prove god is 2A. If we could find a comparison then scaling could begin to Chronus.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Victor

Here it is:

http://imgur.com/a/WaaHu

"Acabei de destruir a Adamas Psammos que se encontra no labirinto de Cronos. Minha ampulheta que controla o tempo, sem ela... As horas saem de controle. O passado e o futuro, tanto daqui como da terra, se confundem... E tudo cai no mais terrivel caos..."

Meaning:

"I have just destroyed the Adams Psammos which was inside the Labyrinth of Cronus. My hourglass which controls time, without it... The passing of the hours loses all control. The past and future, both of here and of Earth, are twisted... And all fall into the most terrible chaos."

http://imgur.com/a/upuA1

"A chama de meus bra├ºos é um indicador. Cada chama que se apaga é mais um desvio do tempo. Se n├úo me destruirem antes de todas elas se apagaram... Tudo aqui e na terra entrara em colapso e acabara em ru├¡nas. E isso nem Zeus poderia evitar..."

Meaning:

"The flames of my arms are an indicator: With each flame that is extinguished, a further shift in time occours. If you do not destroy me before they are all gone... Then everything both here and on Earth will collapse and end in ruin. And that not even Zeus will be able to avoid."

http://imgur.com/a/uoujX

"O que foi? Levanta dai. Ou vai deixar a chama do tempo se extinguir? Quando essa chama se apagar, esta terra desaparacera. Olha só... Uma j├í se foi..."

Meaning:

"What happened? Get up already. Or are you going to let the flames of time be extinguished? When this flame fades, this earth will disappear. Oh, look... One's already gone."

 

[Victor2]

did cronus made the "hourglass" ? and how did they stop him from destroying all of space-time?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes.

They "defeated" him before it happened.

 

[Tivanenk]

Matthew, Matthew, he's the man. If he can't do it, no one can!

• cheerleads from the side*

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Regardless, Cronus CAN, if he wants to, destroy every single space-time continuum in the span of minutes, and he is a God bound by a single timeline, meaning there are countless versions of him, and he is complete fodder to the like of Zeus, Gaia, Tartarus and Typhon.