Ryu vs Incineroar (1-7-0) (Grace)

[koopa3144]

• Fight takes place in a wrestling ring
• Winner is decided by knockout
• Ryu is in his SFV-III key
• Speed is equalized

Ryu:1

Incineroar:7

Incon:0

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Ryu should have quite the skill advantage and he has also a large experience against master wrestlers who are most likely better than Incineroar, namely Zangief and Alex, and the latter was already having troubles against an early series Ryu, while the one used here stomped him without even trying.

Incineroar is quite the wrestler in his own regard, but there's no way to tell how experienced he is against actual fighters such as Ryu, as it might no have stumbled upon too many fighting types, as well as having faired well against them, and remember that combat experience against non-martial artist mons helps so far.

Add the fact that Incineroar's weak to fighting moves, and that Ryu's LS is at the very least comparable (the difference between their calcs is a little more than 2X, but Ryu scales massively above that feat which was casual to beging with).

Incineroar has some useful tools, but Ryu's also got his own, and at the end of the way I think the scale is tilted in Ryu's favor.

 

[koopa3144]

Ryu should have quite the skill advantage and he has also a large experience against master wrestlers who are most likely better than Incineroar, namely Zangief and Alex, and the latter was already having troubles against an early series Ryu, while the one used here stomped him without even trying.

Incineroar is quite the wrestler in his own regard, but there's no way to tell how experienced he is against actual fighters such as Ryu, as it might no have stumbled upon too many fighting types, as well as having faired well against them, and remember that combat experience against non-martial artist mons helps so far.

Add the fact that Incineroar's weak to fighting moves, and that Ryu's LS is at the very least comparable (the difference between their calcs is a little more than 2X, but Ryu scales massively above that feat which was casual to beging with).

Incineroar has some useful tools, but Ryu's also got his own, and at the end of the way I think the scale is tilted in Ryu's favor.

Do you want me to count this as a vote for Ryu?

 

[SamanPatou]

Yes

 

[Arceus0x]

Gonna counter it in a bit

 

[Arceus0x]

Incineroar might have an experience disadvantage but a few things need to be noted. 1. Fighting type moves =/= every form of martial arts. Just punching people doesn't mean it's suddenly a fighting type move since there are other moves composed of complex physical attacks that aren't fighting types. It has been basically accepted that fighting types aren't a type weakness that can be applied outside of the verse, the only ones that can be are the elemental ones such as fire or water. This comes from all of the types coming from Arceus' plates.

Anyways, Incineroar has tons of options here. He can deal any damage he takes back by using Counter, he can lower Ryu's speed severely, his defense and attack potency. He can also boost his own power up to 4x with bulk up. All of this comes from distance and sound based moves, one being a roar, the other a leer and the other a grimace, making it basically undodgeable especially in close combat.
Besides that is obviously Incineroar's fire based abilities which have good range and good heat.

I ain't voting for now but i will say that Incineroar had a damn good chance to get a win here

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, Incineroar has 2000C heat and Ryu has no resistance. Overall, i vote for him via the reasons above and crazy heat

 

[koopa3144]

Yes

Counted

 

[koopa3144]

Also, Incineroar has 2000C heat and Ryu has no resistance. Overall, i vote for him via the reasons above and crazy heat

Counted

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Incineroar might have an experience disadvantage but a few things need to be noted. 1.

This shouldn't be underestimated, since he's primarily a physical fighter, being in notable disadvantage at cqc could mean he doesn't get the chance of using some of his best or most useful moves, or being worn out quickly. The dex also states he prefers all out, no holds barred and rough battles, with punches and kicks and such, and being at a disadvantage in such field can be extremely detrimental for it.
Also, Ryu's having a comparable if not higher LS makes Incineroar's wrestlig-oriented style quite less effective.

Fighting type moves =/= every form of martial arts. Just punching people doesn't mean it's suddenly a fighting type move since there are other moves composed of complex physical attacks that aren't fighting types. It has been basically accepted that fighting types aren't a type weakness that can be applied outside of the verse, the only ones that can be are the elemental ones such as fire or water. This comes from all of the types coming from Arceus' plates.

I thought we still followed the concept of fighting as specifically refined moves, against more rough and brawling-oriented normal physical attacks (although the latter can't be applied outside of the verse), with Dark being a mix of underhanded tactics and dark energy.
Technically the fact that SF works by Ki being a manifestation of fighting spirit which fuels the fighter, similarly to the Pokemon aura, might intertwine with Pokèmon mechanics.
Anyway, if current wiki rules don't allow this, then ok, but otherwise it would be another major disadvantage for Inci.

He can deal any damage he takes back by using Counter,

From what I see, Inci doesn't learn counter

he can lower Ryu's speed severely, his defense and attack potency. He can also boost his own power up to 4x with bulk up. All of this comes from distance and sound based moves, one being a roar, the other a leer and the other a grimace, making it basically undodgeable especially in close combat.
Besides that is obviously Incineroar's fire based abilities which have good range and good heat.

First, do we really accept PKMN multipliers and divisors as actual values, instead of unquantifiable stat alterations like we do with most other RPGs, where we classify X and / as game mechanics?
Anyway, Ryu's already going to sense how strong Inci is through ki sensing, and would also notice if it power ups, how he did it, and take countermeasures, or just trying to pressure it more or finish it off more quickly. Stat down moves are a thing and would work, yes, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that Incineroar will have the chance to land all of them and to stack them up, or even just spam them so much given its behavior.
Ryu's also quite used at fighting opponents with higher stats (Seth in the OAV, Bison in the Alpha series, Akuma several times..), and his smarts, experience, willpower and stamina also weight in, he defintiely isn't going to get trumped by a few stat debuffs (although they surely don't play in his favor, I'm not saying that)

In ranged options they're basically even in experience and attacks, but I'd say Inci's tendency to fight head-on puts him a step back towards Ryu, who has refined his hadoken as a major part of his style (in opposition to Ken's style), and while their heat is going to do jackshit to Inci, such projectiles are concussive energy in the first place, meaning they're still going to damage it, while Electric hadokens would work fully.

And speaking of other options, Ryu could very well apply his statuses here, if he manages to combo Inci, something he's likely to do given the skill gap, and that means more free hits, especially power-upped moves.
His 3 powernull techniques, air manip and electricity are also in-there to be accounted.

Also, Incineroar has 2000C heat and Ryu has no resistance. Overall, i vote for him via the reasons above and crazy heat

That's quite the big thing, but I would say that such projectiles can be avoided and countered, both things Ryu can very well do.
Also, the dex also says Inci prefers to leave ranged fire attacks as finishers, that should be taken into consideration.

 

[Arceus0x]

I thought we still followed the concept of fighting as specifically refined moves, against more rough and brawling-oriented normal physical attacks (although the latter can't be applied outside of the verse), with Dark being a mix of underhanded tactics and dark energy.
Technically the fact that SF works by Ki being a manifestation of fighting spirit which fuels the fighter, similarly to the Pokemon aura, might intertwine with Pokèmon mechanics.
Anyway, if current wiki rules don't allow this, then ok, but otherwise it would be another major disadvantage for Inci.

Nah that changed generally. There are many pokemon moves that contain martial arts that aren't considered fighting type moves. Considering everything comes from the plates and ki isn't really the same as aura and how it functions there isn't much to equalize here.

First, do we really accept PKMN multipliers and divisors as actual values, instead of unquantifiable stat alterations like we do with most other RPGs, where we classify X and / as game mechanics?

technically yeah, you see many things that are ingame often appear in the anime and manga, an example being Ash vs. Drasnea where one of her attacks, hyper fang, hits Ash's pokemon and Clemont (genius dude) states that the move cuts exactly half of the opponent's stamina. This suggests that things that seem to only appear in game appear in the anime as well, countering the fact that most of the descriptions are just game mechanics. Not to mention that we do know that a single use of stat amps boost characters significantly and, in my opinion, using 1.5 to 2x multiplier is a good estimate (though tbh in some cases it may be a lowball as there are examples of agility just blitzing opponents first few uses, so overall, taking the stats is good), not to mention the same multiplier appears in mystery dungeon canonically as it is stated that our power doubles or our speed doubles in which case you will walk and fight visually twice as fast as your opponent or thrice or ect.

Anyway, Ryu's already going to sense how strong Inci is through ki sensing, and would also notice if it power ups, how he did it, and take countermeasures, or just trying to pressure it more or finish it off more quickly. Stat down moves are a thing and would work, yes, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that Incineroar will have the chance to land all of them and to stack them up, or even just spam them so much given its behavior.
Ryu's also quite used at fighting opponents with higher stats (Seth in the OAV, Bison in the Alpha series, Akuma several times..), and his smarts, experience, willpower and stamina also weight in, he defintiely isn't going to get trumped by a few stat debuffs (although they surely don't play in his favor, I'm not saying that)

that is understandable but speed debuffs would make his life hell, not to mention Incineroar has the attack swagger which he will definitely use, given his personality, and that will buff but also confuse ryu which will definitely cause problems for him, major problems as he will either hit himself or hit things at random until he snaps back out of it by the time Incineroar could just use growl to lower his stats back down, hit him with a throat chop or just melt him with one of his attacks

In ranged options they're basically even in experience and attacks, but I'd say Inci's tendency to fight head-on puts him a step back towards Ryu, who has refined his hadoken as a major part of his style (in opposition to Ken's style), and while their heat is going to do jackshit to Inci, such projectiles are concussive energy in the first place, meaning they're still going to damage it, while Electric hadokens would work fully.

that's true, though flamethrower may turn out to be more effective since unlike a singular hadouken, flamethrower is a continuous heat stream

And speaking of other options, Ryu could very well apply his statuses here, if he manages to combo Inci, something he's likely to do given the skill gap, and that means more free hits, especially power-upped moves.
His 3 powernull techniques, air manip and electricity are also in-there to be accounted.

you also have to account that Inci's cc options aren't limited. If Inci boosts his stats with bulk up he can use powertrip which is a very powerful attack that increases in power with each stat boost. Additionally he has fake out and thrash, one making Ryu flinch and the other making it hard for him to fully counter the attack as it is basically a barrage of random punches.

That's quite the big thing, but I would say that such projectiles can be avoided and countered, both things Ryu can very well do.
Also, the dex also says Inci prefers to leave ranged fire attacks as finishers, that should be taken into consideration.

he also has flare blitz and fire fang both of which are viable options for him. If Ryu ever gets hit with swagger these moves will be a nearly guaranteed heat and considering Inci could pierce into Ryu's skin he could just melt his body with just his flames in a fire fang.

 

[SamanPatou]

that is understandable but speed debuffs would make his life hell,

Not really, higher stats can be countered to a certain degree by tactic, prediction, smarts, skill and certain techniques, all things Ryu has refined to the masterful levels, to which his enhanced senses have to be added.
Ryu has also most notably matched SFV Nash to a standstill, whose fighting style at the time was basically a spam of speed boosts (although in short bursts), and whose skill was definitely higher than Inci's.

not to mention Incineroar has the attack swagger which he will definitely use, given his personality, and that will buff but also confuse ryu which will definitely cause problems for him, major problems as he will either hit himself or hit things at random until he snaps back out of it by the time Incineroar could just use growl to lower his stats back down, hit him with a throat chop or just melt him with one of his attacks.

Confusion isn't a complete handicap, mons still have good chances to behave normally. Ryu's power of nothingness might also weight in, maybe, since it's basically purging all distractions and intereferences to focus on the fight, in opposition to the Satsui no Hado.
Anyway, I agree that stat alterations and statuses are effective tools, but given the skill gap, Ryu's tools and Inci's attitude, the cat might not make it in time to spam or land certain moves, as well as having the chance of doing them with the necessary accuracy or time.

that's true, though flamethrower may turn out to be more effective since unlike a singular hadouken, flamethrower is a continuous heat stream.

Ryu can use the hadoken as a continous stream as well, and even normal ones have been shown to work against fiery explosions.
Also, given Ryu's acrobatics and experience against expert projectile users, ember and flamethrower might not be completely effective.

you also have to account that Inci's cc options aren't limited. If Inci boosts his stats with bulk up he can use powertrip which is a very powerful attack that increases in power with each stat boost. Additionally he has fake out and thrash, one making Ryu flinch and the other making it hard for him to fully counter the attack as it is basically a barrage of random punches.

Power Trip needs Inci to have the chance of boosting at least a few time, which shouldn't be given for granted.
Fake out is a one time move that needs to be used immediately, unless Inci always starts with that, it isn't a reliable option.
A barrage of random punches is the least effective thing you can do against one like Ryu, who deals with barrages of very precise strikes from expert martial artists all the times. Random punches will just get parried and avoided, giving Ryu a chance to counter and affect Inci with one of his own statuses (crumpling and such)

he also has flare blitz and fire fang both of which are viable options for him. If Ryu ever gets hit with swagger these moves will be a nearly guaranteed heat and considering Inci could pierce into Ryu's skin he could just melt his body with just his flames in a fire fang.

They have to land first, a tackle and a bite can be seen through and coutneracted accordingly.
Inci isn't more feral than guys like Blanka and Necalli, against which Ryu has experience, having even matched the latter at the end, even before powerin up.

 

[Arceus0x]

I will respond properly later when my head is clearer but just saying that using bulk up for incineroar takes like one good muscle flex which he can easily do

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump 3x

 

[koopa3144]

Bump 4x

 

[koopa3144]

Bump 5x

 

[koopa3144]

bump x6

 

[Mushy]

Voting Incineroar because he has superior options outside of just martial arts to Ryu.

Incineroar has an arsenal of fighting type moves that might make up for Ryu’s, that isn’t Incineroar’s only options unlike Ryu who doesn’t have many tools outside of his martial arts.

 

[koopa3144]

Voting Incineroar because he has superior options outside of just martial arts to Ryu.

Incineroar has an arsenal of fighting type moves that might make up for Ryu’s, that isn’t Incineroar’s only options unlike Ryu who doesn’t have many tools outside of his martial arts.

counted

 

[SamanPatou]

Voting Incineroar because he has superior options outside of just martial arts to Ryu.

Incineroar has an arsenal of fighting type moves that might make up for Ryu’s, that isn’t Incineroar’s only options unlike Ryu who doesn’t have many tools outside of his martial arts.

This is quite and underselling, and you still have to see what those martial arts are, as a good fighter can very well compensate a lack of hax, which is honestly what Ryu does, just look at Bison's profile.
And Incineroar remains a non-fighting type who's still described as a rough brawler, having some fighting type moves doesn't make it equal to one of the caliber of Ryu.

And Ryu's martial arts still include stuff like ranged attacks, air manip, electricity, statuses, very good acrobatics and (limited) powernull.
I didn't mention his deconstruction because it isn't in character for Inci to go for the kill, but for whatever reason this wild animal tries that, I think it's fair to say Ryu would try to defend himself with his best option.

 

[Mushy]

This is quite and underselling, and you still have to see what those martial arts are.."

I don't know why you would immediately resort to me not understanding Ryu's skills in martial arts considering you have little to no evidence of what I know. Purely an assumption.

...a good fighter can very well compensate a lack of hax...

I believe it is generally the other way around.

Under normal conditions, Mario should be able to defeat Kamek, but it is Kamek's hax that make people automatically rethink the match entirely.

Mario's skills as a fighter is not enough to overlook hax in many cases. I don't think we would hear "Mario wins because of his fighting skills", but rather "Mario would win if Kamek doesn't resort to turning him into a goomba."

And Incineroar remains a non-fighting type who's still described as a rough brawler, having some fighting type moves doesn't make it equal to one of the caliber of Ryu.

I didn't say that having fighting type moves made Incineroar equal to Ryu, I stated that it makes combat easier for Incineroar.

Moves like acrobatics, assurance, blaze kick, body slam, close combat, cross chop, darkest lariat, drain punch, endeavor, fake out, fire fang, fire punch, flame charge, flare blitz, focus punch, giga impact, heat crash, iron head, leech life, lick, low kick, mega punch, outrage, revenge, shadow claw, stomping tantrum, superpower, thrash, throat chop, reversal, and thunder punch will be a great help for Incineroar. It isn't just fighting type moves we are talking here anyway.

And Ryu's martial arts still include stuff like ranged attacks, air manip, electricity, statuses, very good acrobatics and (limited) powernull.

I hope he gets to use some of that power-null, because Incin has multiple moves that either benefit from or don't care about it such as darkest lariat and lash out, alongside other moves that can boost his stats such as bulk up or swords dance.

Any statuses are happily greeted by facade, as well as will-o-wisp being distributed in response.

Any other option Ryu has outside of martial arts seems inferior to Incin's kit anyway.

I didn't mention his deconstruction because it isn't in character for Inci to go for the kill, but for whatever reason this wild animal tries that, I think it's fair to say Ryu would try to defend himself with his best option.

What makes you think a wild Incineroar isn't going to kill Ryu given the chance?

"This Pokémon has a violent, selfish disposition. If it's not in the mood to listen, it will ignore its Trainer's orders with complete nonchalance."
-Pokedex - Pokemon Sun

Incineroars are violent by nature, and, if they wouldn't care about the orders of their own trainers, they won't care for Ryu's pleas either.

-

"After hurling ferocious punches and flinging furious kicks, it finishes opponents off by spewing fire from around its navel."
-Pokedex - Pokemon Moon

Incineroars are generally seen throwing "ferocious" and "furious" attacks, which are characteristics of a violent being.

-

"Although it's rough mannered and egotistical, it finds beating down unworthy opponents boring."
-Pokedex - Pokemon Ultra Sun

Rough mannered beings generally don't care for mercy hand-outs.

-

"It excels at violent, no-holds-barred battles. The temperature of the flames that issue from its navel exceeds 3,600 degrees Fahrenheit.*"
-Pokedex - Pokemon Sword

This one is just a straight-up rebuttal from Nintendo themselves. No mercy. Only defeat.

-

"Incineroar's rough and aggressive behavior is its most notable trait, but the way it helps out small Pokémon shows that it has a kind side as well.*"
-Pokedex - Pokemon Shield

Being rough and aggressive is Incin's most notable trait, but showing mercy to small Pokemon. I do hope your debate doesn't have room for Ryu being considered a little Pokemon.

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't know why you would immediately resort to me not understanding Ryu's skills in martial arts considering you have little to no evidence of what I know. Purely an assumption.

I'll reply to the rest later, but first, my apologies for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to refer to "you" as a person with my "you", it was more of a generic way to refer to a generic subject in the argument.

 

[Mushy]

I'll reply to the rest later, but first, my apologies for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to refer to "you" as a person with my "you", it was more of a generic way to refer to a generic subject in the argument.

I didn’t take if offensively, so there is no worries.

Simply the business of the debate.

I look forward to your response.

 

[SamanPatou]

I believe it is generally the other way around.
Under normal conditions, Mario should be able to defeat Kamek, but it is Kamek's hax that make people automatically rethink the match entirely.
Mario's skills as a fighter is not enough to overlook hax in many cases. I don't think we would hear "Mario wins because of his fighting skills", but rather "Mario would win if Kamek doesn't resort to turning him into a goomba."

Instead, I think narration is what allows us to sort the thing out.
It's logical to assume hax usually beats mundane forms of combat, but when the story tells us that David beat Goliath, then it's quite reasonable to assume the former figured out a way to circumvent the latter's advantages.
In this case you can argue Mario used his crazy acrobatics, exploited the environment or something else to win.

In the same way, Ryu can beat one like Bison through sheer skill despite being less versatile in terms of combat options

I didn't say that having fighting type moves made Incineroar equal to Ryu, I stated that it makes combat easier for Incineroar.

Yes, but it goes so far, honestly, given the width of the gap

Moves like acrobatics, assurance, blaze kick, body slam, close combat, cross chop, darkest lariat, drain punch, endeavor, fake out, fire fang, fire punch, flame charge, flare blitz, focus punch, giga impact, heat crash, iron head, leech life, lick, low kick, mega punch, outrage, revenge, shadow claw, stomping tantrum, superpower, thrash, throat chop, reversal, and thunder punch will be a great help for Incineroar. It isn't just fighting type moves we are talking here anyway.

First, remind me if we allow TM moves in our files, since we assume these are wild Pokémon.
I'm sure it's been discussed several times, but I don't remember the last verdict.

I hope he gets to use some of that power-null, because Incin has multiple moves that either benefit from or don't care about it such as darkest lariat and lash out, alongside other moves that can boost his stats such as bulk up or swords dance.

Ryu's powernull is a form of "super block", it basically nulls the damage dealt by an attack not eccessively superior to Ryu's stats and allows Ryu to counterattack.
Also, his hadokens have shown the ability to extinguish large bursts of flames.

Any statuses are happily greeted by facade, as well as will-o-wisp being distributed in response.

Not really, because Ryu's statuses don't linger on the opponent.
The first is generally called stun, basically if Ryu connects a decently long combo, or chains together several attacks within a timeframe without giving the opponent much window to recover, he stuns them for a little, a period during which they are left standing still and unable to act.
I also want to note that, despite it being a common trope within fighting games, it was established in a CRT that it should be generally accounted, since techniques such as Poison's Love Kiss or Alex's Headbutt Machine Gun are specifically meant to induce such status (which otherwise can be induced by everyone via the methods above).
This, along the next one, is quite useful, since it basically grants Ryu more free hits.

The second is crumpling, Ryu does it via his Kaze no Obushi and Kakko Fubatsu (the latter combines the super block mentioned above).
Once these moves connect, the opponent is "turned off", faints for a small time and falls down, giving Ryu the chance to connect free hits.

These techniques are also particularly in-character, since Ryu's whole deal (especially starting from SFV) is his calmness of mind and heart, through which he combines attacks and defense to exploit the opponent's mistakes and open windows.

What makes you think a wild Incineroar isn't going to kill Ryu given the chance?

I misremembered Inci's dex entries, then.

That said, Ryu isn't stranger to kill the enemy if it means saving his life or ridding the world of a great evil (Bison [twice] and Seth [clone] are examples).
Inci would fall in the first category, meaning that at some point, if Ryu's determines that his life is seriously endangered, he could fire a Mu No Ken hadoken and make Inci vanish, were it to land.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

want to ask that what is incineroar incon ?,cuz if we lean into who have more skill,that must be ryu for sure,i don't see how he lose to some wild pokemon

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wasn't there a statement that Machamp are masters of every single martial arts ever and practically every third stage pokemon under the sun can swap hands with them just fine? Incinerate isn't exactly lacking in skill, I just wanna put that out there.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Wasn't there a statement that Machamp are masters of every single martial arts ever.

Yes.
"Machamp is known as the Pokémon that has mastered every kind of martial arts. If it grabs hold of the foe with its four arms, the battle is all but over. The hapless foe is thrown far over the horizon." ~ Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire Machamp dex entry
"With four arms, it can attack and defend simultaneously. It's said to have mastered every martial art in the world." ~Ultra Moon Machamp dex entry

This is also supported by Machop to an extent, the first stage
"Loves to build its muscles. It trains in all styles of martial arts to become even stronger." ~Red, Blue, and Leafgreen Machop entry
"Very powerful in spite of its small size. Its mastery of many types of martial arts makes it very tough." ~Yellow, Let's Go Pikachu, and Let's Go Eevee entry
"Machop exercises by hefting around a Graveler as if it were a barbell. There are some Machop that travel the world in a quest to master all kinds of martial arts." ~Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire entry
"It continually undertakes strenuous training to master all forms of martial arts. Its strength lets it easily hoist a sumo wrestler onto its shoulders." ~Emerald entry
"It hefts a Graveler repeatedly to strengthen its entire body. It uses every type of martial arts." ~Diamond, X, and Brilliant Diamond entry

Sorry if a bit long, just wanted to be a bit thorough
Edit: It's also accepted on the profiles, including on Incineroar's and Machamp's

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yes.
"Machamp is known as the Pokémon that has mastered every kind of martial arts. If it grabs hold of the foe with its four arms, the battle is all but over. The hapless foe is thrown far over the horizon." ~ Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire Machamp dex entry
"With four arms, it can attack and defend simultaneously. It's said to have mastered every martial art in the world." ~Ultra Moon Machamp dex entry

This is also supported by Machop to an extent, the first stage
"Loves to build its muscles. It trains in all styles of martial arts to become even stronger." ~Red, Blue, and Leafgreen Machop entry
"Very powerful in spite of its small size. Its mastery of many types of martial arts makes it very tough." ~Yellow, Let's Go Pikachu, and Let's Go Eevee entry
"Machop exercises by hefting around a Graveler as if it were a barbell. There are some Machop that travel the world in a quest to master all kinds of martial arts." ~Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire entry
"It continually undertakes strenuous training to master all forms of martial arts. Its strength lets it easily hoist a sumo wrestler onto its shoulders." ~Emerald entry
"It hefts a Graveler repeatedly to strengthen its entire body. It uses every type of martial arts." ~Diamond, X, and Brilliant Diamond entry

Sorry if a bit long, just wanted to be a bit thorough

Then yeah, Pokemon can swap hands with this things pretty damn consistently. People don't give them enough credit in the skill department.

 

[SamanPatou]

Wasn't there a statement that Machamp are masters of every single martial arts ever and practically every third stage pokemon under the sun can swap hands with them just fine? Incinerate isn't exactly lacking in skill, I just wanna put that out there.

This is a gigantic misconception.
Not only it's not stated everywhere that every single third stage is even the skill department, but most of the Pokemon don't have anything to do with martial arts, so them matching Machamp meants nothing without proper context.
Martial arts have been made by humans to fight another human, but they are pratically useless when fighting animals, living objects etc..., especially if they have elemental powers and such.
I can accept skillscaling when it's explicitly about fighting types who canonically match Machamp even in the wild (such ad Hawlucha) but all other non-fighting types just fight in different manners, it's not a clash of martial arts skill anymore, just overall combat ability.

And this scaling with Incineroar doesn't even work, since it's not a fighting type, instead a dark type (basically the antithesis of the fighting type, to which it is also weak), but it is explicitly stated by the dex to use an unrefined form of brawling.

 

[Mushy]

Apologies for the long-awaited answer. I like to take my time with these sorts of things. If you aren't interested in the discussion anymore, don't feel stressed about answering.

It's logical to assume hax usually beats mundane forms of combat, but when the story tells us that David beat Goliath, then it's quite reasonable to assume the former figured out a way to circumvent the latter's advantages.

I don't think either mentioned character in this example has any notable "hax". This feels more like just an example of "strong projectile vs. weak point on powerful opponent" rather than a testament of pure skill.

Not that David didn't have skill, as he evidently did considering how well he aimed the rock, but that the factors that came into play regarding David's decision of attack.

It will be these factors I think will play out in this match. For example, Incin has superior projectile and utility game, which, in my opinion, will probably earn him a win, but I wouldn't consider those to be hax.

I am honestly a bit confused as to how hax became relevant in this discussion anyway given that Incin doesn't have many hax, just simply superior zoning options. After reviewing Incineroar's moves, I can't find any options that would be any different than what I described.

In this case you can argue Mario used his crazy acrobatics, exploited the environment or something else to win.

In the same way, Ryu can beat one like Bison through sheer skill despite being less versatile in terms of combat options

I won't go into this since I don't see hax as being incredibly relevant.

Yes, but it goes so far, honestly, given the width of the gap

I don't see how this comment refutes what I said.

First, remind me if we allow TM moves in our files, since we assume these are wild Pokémon.
I'm sure it's been discussed several times, but I don't remember the last verdict.

I am not sure what the last verdict is because I am a bit new here, but I can see how it woukd work.

Once a Pokemon is abandoned by the trainer, it becomes wild.

The trainer could have loaded tms onto the Pokemon before it was abandoned, which, not only makes a case for a wild Pokemon learning moves by tm, but also the rest of its arsenal.

Ryu's powernull is a form of "super block", it basically nulls the damage dealt by an attack not eccessively superior to Ryu's stats and allows Ryu to counterattack.

I see. Apologies, as I thought it "power-null" was the ability to reduce stats or power.

Also, his hadokens have shown the ability to extinguish large bursts of flames.

Would like citations for this one.

Not really, because Ryu's statuses don't linger on the opponent.
The first is generally called stun, basically if Ryu connects a decently long combo, or chains together several attacks within a timeframe without giving the opponent much window to recover, he stuns them for a little, a period during which they are left standing still and unable to act.
I also want to note that, despite it being a common trope within fighting games, it was established in a CRT that it should be generally accounted, since techniques such as Poison's Love Kiss or Alex's Headbutt Machine Gun are specifically meant to induce such status (which otherwise can be induced by everyone via the methods above).
This, along the next one, is quite useful, since it basically grants Ryu more free hits.

SF has a new definition for everything it seems.

That said, Ryu isn't stranger to kill the enemy if it means saving his life or ridding the world of a great evil (Bison [twice] and Seth [clone] are examples).
Inci would fall in the first category, meaning that at some point, if Ryu's determines that his life is seriously endangered, he could fire a Mu No Ken hadoken and make Inci vanish, were it to land.

Odd thing to say after a concession.

That said, I don't disagree with you, and, to think of it, I don't think I ever did. It's simply logical that one would be willing to kill another over the safety of itself.

Provided this, I don't think that the Incin entries were all that necessary.

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think either mentioned character in this example has any notable "hax". This feels more like just an example of "strong projectile vs. weak point on powerful opponent" rather than a testament of pure skill.
Not that David didn't have skill, as he evidently did considering how well he aimed the rock, but that the factors that came into play regarding David's decision of attack.

I meant more apparently insormountable odds being beaten because of the narrative telling us the character can win.

It will be these factors I think will play out in this match. For example, Incin has superior projectile and utility game, which, in my opinion, will probably earn him a win, but I wouldn't consider those to be hax.

I wouldn't necessarily say Inci has superior projectiles, given how the dex portrays him as a mostly purely physical fighter, while Ryu is known for his hadokens, of which he knows a few versions, and the fact is extremely trained and skilled at using them.
I'd say they're more even than not, with the exception of Ryu being more prone to using them in-character.

I don't see how this comment refutes what I said.

It doesn't refuse what you said, but I believe that having a few fighting type moves makes really low difference.

I am not sure what the last verdict is because I am a bit new here, but I can see how it woukd work.
Once a Pokemon is abandoned by the trainer, it becomes wild.
The trainer could have loaded tms onto the Pokemon before it was abandoned, which, not only makes a case for a wild Pokemon learning moves by tm, but also the rest of its arsenal.

Iirc I think we always assumed the wild mons to be purely wild, because being partially trained would include a great load of stuff that trained mons have and wild don't, which isn't limited to just TMs

I see. Apologies, as I thought it "power-null" was the ability to reduce stats or power.

We list reducing stats as Statistics Reduction, while canceling out powers is effectively powernull, but in this case I didn't know how to classify the act of canceling the impact of a strike, which is why it was decided to list such techniwues as limited power-null.

Would like citations for this one.

It's in Ryu's P&A, but these are the two feats.

SF has a new definition for everything it seems.

It's more like the concept of status effect being quite broad, instead of being limited to the classic RPG definition.

Odd thing to say after a concession.
That said, I don't disagree with you, and, to think of it, I don't think I ever did. It's simply logical that one would be willing to kill another over the safety of itself.
Provided this, I don't think that the Incin entries were all that necessary.

It's because Ryu doesn't kill for free, and always prefers to subdue even evil opponents, instead of outright murdering them.
The times he did, what to either save his life and/or get rid of someone who couldn't be helped, and was a threat to the whole world (Bison and Seth).
I first made the concession because I seemed to recall Inci being a honorable fighter who battles only for the fun of it, but I definitely misremembered.