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Ryougi Shiki Tier
- Thread starter Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)
- Start date
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- 11,444
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@Hadou
Really bad example.
The Hadou Gods transcend the Hyperdimensional Throne and are responsible for the existence of reality as well as every layer of dimensional space, with the Throne that commands all of dimensional space and transcends it being a mere tool that the Hadou Gods can crush with ease if they ever wanted to.
Really bad example.
The Hadou Gods transcend the Hyperdimensional Throne and are responsible for the existence of reality as well as every layer of dimensional space, with the Throne that commands all of dimensional space and transcends it being a mere tool that the Hadou Gods can crush with ease if they ever wanted to.
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- Thread starter
- #43
But there are only 22 mentioned dimensions in the verse. It isn't a bad example. The reason the Throne is notable is because all concepts exist within the Throne, so the Hadou Gods transcend all concepts, including the concept of dimensions. Similarly, even though only 6 dimensions have been mentioned in the Nasuverse, Akasha transcends all concepts, including the concept of dimensions.
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- #45
Well, okay. I was just saying, transcending the concept of dimensions also warrants a 1-A rating, even if there aren't Infinity tell dimensions in the verse.
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No it is not, for the reasons I gave before.
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Which were?Gargoyle One said:
I'm not supporting this, I'm just questioning why you think transcending the concept of dimensions entirely is not 1-A even if there are not infinite dimensions.
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Which were the fact that there is zero evidence of infinite dimensions barring a single vague statement.
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- #49
I said there DO NOT have to be infinite dimensions in the verse for you to be Outerversal. You simply have to transcend the concept of dimensions. The page on Outerverse says that.
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- #50
"An outerverse can also be in line with the concept of "Beyond Reality" in which its nature is not only different, but also conceptually superior to the concept of dimension as some formless, transcendental realm, that is, even an infinite-dimensional hyperverse would be nonexistent in comparison to them, regardless if the setting of a verse is infinite-dimensional or not. What this means is, if a setting is for example, 14-dimensional, but a world outside of it is described as being conceptually superior to all forms of space-time, the realm qualifies as an outerverse."
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HadouCyberspaceWitch does have a point. If an entity was supposed to be a being beyond the concept of dimensional reality altogether, then it wouldn't matter how many dimensions that verse has at all. They'd be a being beyond the restraints of any system in that case.
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- #52
^ Basically my point. If Akasha transcends all concepts, and even acknowledges transcending all theories on dimensions, and being metaphysical, I don't see why he isn't 1-A. Literally like transcends the concept of dimensions.
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The statement of what m8 ovo
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I actually don't think it does.
Heres something from the description of the swirl of the root
" is a metaphysical location within the Nasuverse that acts as the "force" that exists at the top of all theories in every dimension, as well as the source of all events and phenomena in the universe."
What do you make of that bolded bit?
Heres something from the description of the swirl of the root
" is a metaphysical location within the Nasuverse that acts as the "force" that exists at the top of all theories in every dimension, as well as the source of all events and phenomena in the universe."
What do you make of that bolded bit?
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- #57
I don't know where it is, and I can't really find it. But if what his summary and description say are true, I think he sounds pretty Outerversal to me.
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If you transcend the concept of dimensions, you are 1-A. Period. Even transcending an infinite number of dimensions an infinite number of times over or transcending space and time itself isn't necessarily enough for 1-A. But if said characters are stated to transcend the concept of dimensions itself or all concepts in general, they are 1-A. An example: Comparing a verse where 4-D is the maximum dimensions shown to one where there are infinitely infinite dimensions. If the one with 4-D has characters who are directly stated to transcend dimensions entirely, that is grounds for 1-A, whereas transcending infinite dimensions is not. Compare the Crimson King and Downstreamers to 1-A's in the Cthulhu Mythos. I am having a hard time remembering any dimensions higher than 4 being mentioned except in passing, and I'm not sure if infinite dimensions are EVER mentioned. That being said, transcending all dimensional theories sounds more like a solid case for Possibly 1-A than anything.
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Someone needs to find the exact quote.
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- #60
I don't know where it would be. I was just going by what was on the profile.
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Akasha is the top of the hierarchy in Nasuverse. And under the description of the swirl of the root sits at the top of all theories in every dimension
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- #63
http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General%20True%20Magic%20and%20Root%20Informatio
I found this, but it doesn't talk about what we're looking for. I'll keep looking.
I found this, but it doesn't talk about what we're looking for. I'll keep looking.
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- #64
I don't really see why we need to find it, though. We can use basically the exact same justification that we have now and add a "possibly 1-A" at the end, because that just makes sense.
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"existing at the top of all theories in every dimension"
That is not 1-A, in any facet.
That is not 1-A, in any facet.
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- Thread starter
- #67
Nothing suggests infinite dimensions, so it wouldn't be High 1-B. It would be "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A".
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We need the quote to judge whether or not an upgrade is necessary based on the original wording.
Unless it explicitly mentions transcendence or something 1-A isn't even in the ballpark.
Unless it explicitly mentions transcendence or something 1-A isn't even in the ballpark.
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>Transcendence over everything
>1-A
Literally every Creator God 1-A when?
Seriously, that is not remotely sufficient. You need far, far, FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more evidence than that alone to warrant 1-A.
Yes, Akasha is beyond everything, but said everything only has up to 6D space.
>1-A
Literally every Creator God 1-A when?
Seriously, that is not remotely sufficient. You need far, far, FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more evidence than that alone to warrant 1-A.
Yes, Akasha is beyond everything, but said everything only has up to 6D space.
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- #72
I can't find it. I was mainly just going by the page Akasha has, his descriptions, justifications, and what the Type Moon and Fate wikis say about him. I've searched a few times, but couldn't find it.
The only other relevant things I've found are that Shiki can kill any concept without exception, but I don't know. I suppose I should ask from the Knowledgeable Members List for the people knowledgeable on the verse to comment here.
The only other relevant things I've found are that Shiki can kill any concept without exception, but I don't know. I suppose I should ask from the Knowledgeable Members List for the people knowledgeable on the verse to comment here.
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Killing any concept without exception is an NLF. We don't use NLFs. We are not those people who think Exalted is the strongest verse in fiction because some characters have a value of infinity in all their stats.
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- #75
Matt, I know we don't use NLF. I'm just saying.
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@ProspectX
English?
English?
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Also:
"Behold those who transact on Transfinite Levels of Existence which humankind will not even imagine for tens of thousands of years."
Basically stating that Marvel Abstracts exist on levels of reality which are beyond anything human can conceive, or will even imagine for tens of thousands of years.
Obviously that means that all of them, including the Watcher, are Tier -1, right?
Or at least 1-A, right?
Obviously not. Not only is "Being beyond any physical or scientific theories" only High 1-B (See the Downstreamers), but this is obviously an absurd claim that needs to be dismissed as such. The people writing it had not even the faintest clue of the implications it carried, and applying it contradicts everything.
We cannot use vague statements like "Beyond physics" to say someone is 1-A.
Do you have the faintest idea of how many characters are "Outside the laws of physics"?
Hell, there are characters who are not even Planet level who have that. That just means they can warp and distort reality.
In the Akasha's sense, that just means it is beyond anything physics entails in the Nasuverse, which goes up to 6 Dimensions.
Ergo, it is 7D.
"Behold those who transact on Transfinite Levels of Existence which humankind will not even imagine for tens of thousands of years."
Basically stating that Marvel Abstracts exist on levels of reality which are beyond anything human can conceive, or will even imagine for tens of thousands of years.
Obviously that means that all of them, including the Watcher, are Tier -1, right?
Or at least 1-A, right?
Obviously not. Not only is "Being beyond any physical or scientific theories" only High 1-B (See the Downstreamers), but this is obviously an absurd claim that needs to be dismissed as such. The people writing it had not even the faintest clue of the implications it carried, and applying it contradicts everything.
We cannot use vague statements like "Beyond physics" to say someone is 1-A.
Do you have the faintest idea of how many characters are "Outside the laws of physics"?
Hell, there are characters who are not even Planet level who have that. That just means they can warp and distort reality.
In the Akasha's sense, that just means it is beyond anything physics entails in the Nasuverse, which goes up to 6 Dimensions.
Ergo, it is 7D.
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There's a reason why we have dimensional tiering and require verses to ellaborate on their cosmologies before giving massive upgrades. If not, people like Morgan Freeman God and Azathoth would be listed on the same level since they transcend and created everything in their verse. Or Dimentio would be as strong as Elder God Demonbane since they can both "destroy all of existence".
Akasha being above all in her verse doesn't immediately make her 1-A. Also "existing at the top of all theories in every dimension" is way to vague to suggest 1-A or transcendence of the concept of dimensions in the slightest.
Akasha being above all in her verse doesn't immediately make her 1-A. Also "existing at the top of all theories in every dimension" is way to vague to suggest 1-A or transcendence of the concept of dimensions in the slightest.
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You said she is beyond everything, that's not correctly pharsed within the actual term.
If we are talking about dimensional space, if we imply a 4 dimensional continuum, there is always another one above it. Because there has to always be a bigger system of reference, than that locality.
If we are talking about dimensional space, if we imply a 4 dimensional continuum, there is always another one above it. Because there has to always be a bigger system of reference, than that locality.
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