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RWBY: AP buffs

Spinoirr said:
This whole "outlier" stuff sure reminds me of when roshi wasn't moon level because he only did it once and that's it
Click to expand...
This is not even REMOTELY a comparable situation. That feat had backing from numerous text sources, guidebooks and statements. It had several well established, long as HELL threads about it, and one of the biggest reasonings for the doubt was the scaling chain.

Salem’s feat doesn’t have any of that.

1) We don’t even know if she did the feat or how she did it

2) The scaling chain produced by it is contradicted by the Long Memory

3) The LS portion of that calc is contradicted by Penny’s upper limit of LS being far lower than the suggested scaling

4) The casual nature of a feat that is literally the most powerful feat in the entire verse is done by a character that has, at best, Low 7-B scaling against people that also only have Low 7-B scaling. High 6-C comes from nowhere.

There are issues here that are not congruent with High 6-C being a thing.

Spinoirr said:
That's like saying deku is only small building level because fa Jin deku only destroyed some building floors 🗿

You think that maybe just maybe they held back the blast to not blow up atlas
Click to expand...
No. That’s not even comparable? I’m Dayi my this feat is outlier to the numerous other feats surrounding it performed by other characters.

“Held back the blast” can I get a scan of this being the case??? Oscar looked horrified at the damage he already DID cause, there is no reasoning whatsoever they would have held back when he didn’t even know how big the attack would be. He literally expelled all of its energy doing that, how would he have held it back?
 
WeeklyBattles said:
And again, he outright said that there was barely anything left within Long Memory when he got it back, and after Oscar used the nuke it was left almost completely empty

Its moreso that Oz got progressively weaker with each reincarnation, and this was after he split up his power equally among himself and the four original Maidens, and that when Oscar used the blast it was already basically running on fumes from how little energy was left.

Also the barrier that protected Oscar from being in the heart of that blast is the same one that Cinder broke through when she killed Ozpin in volume 3
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t that just suggest that the power stockpiled into the Long Memory, even after decaying, is enough to vaporize Hazel? If we’re under the assumption that the calc is correct, and that 6-C is the amount of energy held within, it still is making an issue where Hazel, who would be High 6-C directly scaling to Salem, got literally one shot by it. How does that make any sense? A 6-C attack one shots a High 6-C? Something is not adding up.

So if he’s getting progressively weaker, and the power of the cane is getting weaker, and he’s STILL able to one shot Hazel, what is that telling us about the Long Memory? Even if it’s running on fumes, IGNORING any 6-C or High 6-C stuff, it is immensely stronger than Ozpin, any Maiden, or even Salem herself.

The Long Memory would vaporize every character in the series other than the gods if it is strong enough to vaporize Hazel. That is a fact.

So when it is calculated at 6-C, and then people want to claim Old Ozpin is 5x stronger than that blast, it just doesn’t make sense
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Clips for reference




6-C might be too shaky to use but 7-A should be fine
Click to expand...

7-A I would just like a timeframe for her making Monstra. Like anything. Otherwise she shouldn’t scale to Monstra either since the methods of its creation would be unknown to how it scales to her attack potency.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wouldn’t that just suggest that the power stockpiled into the Long Memory, even after decaying, is enough to vaporize Hazel? If we’re under the assumption that the calc is correct, and that 6-C is the amount of energy held within, it still is making an issue where Hazel, who would be High 6-C directly scaling to Salem, got literally one shot by it. How does that make any sense? A 6-C attack one shots a High 6-C? Something is not adding up.

So if he’s getting progressively weaker, and the power of the cane is getting weaker, and he’s STILL able to one shot Hazel, what is that telling us about the Long Memory? Even if it’s running on fumes, IGNORING any 6-C or High 6-C stuff, it is immensely stronger than Ozpin, any Maiden, or even Salem herself.

The Long Memory would vaporize every character in the series other than the gods if it is strong enough to vaporize Hazel. That is a fact.
Click to expand...
Hazel also had his aura broken, was physically overtaxxing his own body by injecting numerous crystals of raw Dust into himself (when it was directly stated in volume 6 that his pain numbing semblance was the reason he was able to handle even two), was near death from the beating he took from Salem, and was actively burning himself alive to try to slow Salem down.

Also Salem is a glass cannon, that much has been agreed on for years. Hell, Yang split her in half in the same episode.
Kingofwolves999 said:
So when it is calculated at 6-C, and then people want to claim Old Ozpin is 5x stronger than that blast, it just doesn’t make sense
Click to expand...
Agreed, hence why im trying to steer this away from 6-C lol
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
7-A I would just like a timeframe for her making Monstra. Like anything. Otherwise she shouldn’t scale to Monstra either since the methods of its creation would be unknown to how it scales to her attack potency.
Click to expand...
There is not a clip that shows that, she would scale just by virtue of being >>>> the Maidens and equal to prime ozma
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Hazel also had his aura broken, was physically overtaxxing his own body by injecting numerous crystals of raw Dust into himself (when it was directly stated in volume 6 that his pain numbing semblance was the reason he was able to handle even two), was near death from the beating he took from Salem, and was actively burning himself alive.

Also Salem is a glass cannon, that much has been agreed on for years. Hell, Yang split her in half in the same episode.

Agreed, hence why im trying to steer this away from 6-C lol
Click to expand...
I know, I don’t much care for Salem, I know her durability is terrible.

But that same, messed up, severely wounded Hazel was still able to fight Salem. He didn’t die in one shot to her attacks, and in fact is directly comparable to her even in a near death state.

Also…

Literally none of that would make him not get absolutely annihilated by pure kinetic energy. Like, his body would be High 6-C by interpretation of this thread, as well as how we rule Aura. Even if the blast just killed him, overcoming a 25x difference is quite doubtful, but it’s even more egregious than that. It literally reduced him to nothing via sheer force. That is not something that “being near death” matters for. His body’s durability doesn’t lower because he got beat up (I mean technically it does because Aura but he’s that strong without Aura you know what I mean), he was that much weaker than the Long Memory already.

WeeklyBattles said:
There is not a clip that shows that, she would scale just by virtue of being >>>> the Maidens and equal to prime ozma
Click to expand...
Wait so why are the Maidens 7-A
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I know, I don’t much care for Salem, I know her durability is terrible.

But that same, messed up, severely wounded Hazel was still able to fight Salem. He didn’t die in one shot to her attacks, and in fact is directly comparable to her even in a near death state.

Also…

Literally none of that would make him not get absolutely annihilated by pure kinetic energy. Like, his body would be High 6-C by interpretation of this thread, as well as how we rule Aura. Even if the blast just killed him, overcoming a 25x difference is quite doubtful, but it’s even more egregious than that. It literally reduced him to nothing via sheer force. That is not something that “being near death” matters for. His body’s durability doesn’t lower because he got beat up (I mean technically it does because Aura but he’s that strong without Aura you know what I mean), he was that much weaker than the Long Memory already.
Click to expand...
Yes, hence why the general cast downscales from this feat (7-A not 6-C, im still not arguing for 6-C)
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wait so why are the Maidens 7-A
Click to expand...
Like i said above, the barrier that shielded Oscar from being in the heart of the blast is the same barrier Ozpin made in the fight against Cinder in volume 3, the one that Cinder subsequently broke through and killed Ozpin. ie. Cinder broke through the barrier that can withstand the 7-A blast in question.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Yes, hence why the general cast downscales from this feat (7-A not 6-C, im still not arguing for 6-C)

Like i said above, the barrier that shielded Oscar from being in the heart of the blast is the same barrier Ozpin made in the fight against Cinder in volume 3, the one that Cinder subsequently broke through and killed Ozpin. ie. Cinder broke through the barrier that can withstand the 7-A blast in question.
Click to expand...
Wait do we even have a calc for how much energy Oscar's shield Tanked based on the island level ke blast?
 
Spinoirr said:
Also because she did it telekinetically just put "at least class T, possibly class P with telekinesis"
Click to expand...
Like I said, the evidence she even DID IT with telekinesis is not there at all. We don’t know why the river did that, if Salem caused it, if Monstra caused it, nada. Saying she did so with telekinesis is speculation with not a lot of ground.
WeeklyBattles said:
Yes, hence why the general cast downscales from this feat (7-A not 6-C, im still not arguing for 6-C)

Like i said above, the barrier that shielded Oscar from being in the heart of the blast is the same barrier Ozpin made in the fight against Cinder in volume 3, the one that Cinder subsequently broke through and killed Ozpin. ie. Cinder broke through the barrier that can withstand the 7-A blast in question.
Click to expand...
Why would they downscale from a feat that one shots the top tiers? No one scales to Hazel, and if they did, they would die instantly to the Long Memory. No way they’re downscaling from it when it’s that much stronger than them.

So Cinder is strong enough to one shot Hazel? That’s essentially what you’re arguing for. And what 7-A value are they even scaling to then? Oscar’s shield would be 6-C, and if the claim is that Ozpin’s shield is the same strength, then his shield would be 6-C, making Cinder 6-C, making Salem 6-C, making Hazel 6-C, except he gets vaporized by the 6-C feat that he’s literally scaling to.

I’d say just put Oscar’s shield as its own thing rather than saying Ozpin was just as strong. Them being the exact same strength is problematic.

Also did we even see Cinder break his shield? I know there was an explosion but it’s not confirmed that she broke through it in that instant to my knowledge.
 
And wasn’t Ozpin weaker than ever before due to age? Would that not affect his abilities with magic as well if he’s basically dying in his current body, on top of his incarnations getting weaker?
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
And wasn’t Ozpin weaker than ever before due to age? Would that not affect his abilities with magic as well if he’s basically dying in his current body, on top of his incarnations getting weaker?
Click to expand...
We have no idea how old Ozpin is, even though he has gray hair that could just be his natural hair color
 
Spinoirr said:
We have no idea how old Ozpin is, even though he has gray hair that could just be his natural hair color
Click to expand...
I could have sworn I heard that his age was making him weaker somewhere. Either way, his shield being just as strong as Oscar’s, which could withstand an attack that one shot Hazel, introduces a huge scaling issue. It’s a logical problem, not a value based one.

Like there’s no reasoning for Cinder to be able to one shot Hazel, yet Salem who is stronger can’t.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
And wasn’t Ozpin weaker than ever before due to age? Would that not affect his abilities with magic as well if he’s basically dying in his current body, on top of his incarnations getting weaker?
Click to expand...
Kingofwolves999 said:
I could have sworn I heard that his age was making him weaker somewhere.
Click to expand...
Its not his physical age, its literally a thing that every time he reincarnates he gets weaker (to the point that he refers to his current power as 'dwindling')
Kingofwolves999 said:
Either way, his shield being just as strong as Oscar’s, which could withstand an attack that one shot Hazel, introduces a huge scaling issue. It’s a logical problem, not a value based one.

Like there’s no reasoning for Cinder to be able to one shot Hazel, yet Salem who is stronger can’t.
Click to expand...
Salem did oneshot him? Like, he outright admits in the previous episode that she toyed with him in their first fight by letting him 'kill' her hundreds of times, only for her to effortlessly overpower him the second she got serious, as well as the scene from volume 7 where she casually overpowered him to the point of making him scream in agony (ie. causing him enough physical pain to overwhelm his pain-numbing semblance). Even in that fight the second she got a hit with her magic it was over for Hazel.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Why would they downscale from a feat that one shots the top tiers? No one scales to Hazel, and if they did, they would die instantly to the Long Memory. No way they’re downscaling from it when it’s that much stronger than them.
Click to expand...
Hazel isnt a top tier, the rest of the cast is on par with him by the time of the Atlas arc. And it oneshotting Salem the glass cannon holds no bearing on their tiers when Yang was able to rip her in half in the same episode.
Kingofwolves999 said:
So Cinder is strong enough to one shot Hazel? That’s essentially what you’re arguing for.
Click to expand...
Yes
Kingofwolves999 said:
And what 7-A value are they even scaling to then? Oscar’s shield would be 6-C, and if the claim is that Ozpin’s shield is the same strength, then his shield would be 6-C, making Cinder 6-C, making Salem 6-C, making Hazel 6-C, except he gets vaporized by the 6-C feat that he’s literally scaling to.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

RWBY: Monstra

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

This, the 7-A calc in the OP. No one is being 6-C, the 7-A feat is Monstra's durability. Oscar's shield would be 7-A, the maidens would upscale from it, Ozma and Salem's magic would upscale from the maidens, and the rest of the cast downscale from it, like i said this is quite literally the exact scaling the verse currently has for the Atlas arc, just with updated math.
Kingofwolves999 said:
I’d say just put Oscar’s shield as its own thing rather than saying Ozpin was just as strong. Them being the exact same strength is problematic.
Click to expand...
Honestly you can viably argue that Ozpin was stronger, he is noted as getting weaker every time he reincarnates.
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also did we even see Cinder break his shield? I know there was an explosion but it’s not confirmed that she broke through it in that instant to my knowledge.
Click to expand...
Ye, at the end of the clip, and in the immediate scene that follows is an outside shot of pyrrha reacting to the explosion caused by ozpin's death followed immediately by cinder flying out of the basement she and Oz were fighting in and going to the top of Beacon tower
 
I thought the calc for Oscar's shield and the explosion was that Oscar made the explosion happen on top of Salem and Hazel. \

Not that his shield was the center of the explosion.

Using the distance and surface area used in this calc. And using the energy from this calc.

(67315479100000000000)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54661179823286580.88 Joules per m^2.

Shield Durability = 54661179823286580.88 * 24.2505 = 1325560941304611229.63 Joules, 316.81 Megatons (Mountain level)

However the 6-C results is incorrect. The mass needed for vaporizing clouds is just water density, while the calc above uses the full weight of the cloud.

KLOL says the mass should be divided by 1003. Doing that gives me a mass of 29634825154.2 kg, redoing the calculation.

Energy = 29634825154.2 * 2264705 = 67114136700842511 Joules, 16.04 Megatons.

(67114136700842511)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54497686771858.54 Joules per m^2

Shield Durability = 54497686771858.54 * 24.2505 = 1321596153060955.52427 Joules, 315.86 Kilotons (Large Town level)
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Salem did oneshot him? Like, he outright admits in the previous episode that she toyed with him in their first fight by letting him 'kill' her hundreds of times, only for her to effortlessly overpower him the second she got serious, as well as the scene from volume 7 where she casually overpowered him to the point of making him scream in agony (ie. causing him enough physical pain to overwhelm his pain-numbing semblance)
Click to expand...
No she did not? She actively tries to kill him serveral times to get at Oscar in their fight during V8, the one that lets him scale to her. She is not one shotting him in that fight. She is somewhat stronger than him, but not enough to literally vaporize him in a single hit like the Long Memory did
WeeklyBattles said:
Hazel isnt a top tier, the rest of the cast is on par with him by the time of the Atlas arc. And it oneshotting Salem the glass cannon holds no bearing on their tiers when Yang was able to rip her in half in the same episode.

Yes

vsbattles.fandom.com

RWBY: Monstra

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

This, the 7-A calc in the OP. No one is being 6-C, the 7-A feat is Monstra's durability. Oscar's shield would be 7-A, the maidens would upscale from it, Ozma and Salem's magic would upscale from the maidens, and the rest of the cast downscale from it, like i said this is quite literally the exact scaling the verse currently has for the Atlas arc, just with updated math.

Honestly you can viably argue that Ozpin was stronger, he is noted as getting weaker every time he reincarnates.

Ye, at the end of the clip, and in the immediate scene that follows is an outside shot of pyrrha reacting to the explosion caused by ozpin's death followed immediately by cinder flying out of the basement she and Oz were fighting in and going to the top of Beacon tower
Click to expand...
Hazel when amplified by Dust is the strongest non-magic character. He could completely tank several attacks from other characters, and even against Salem herself she was not able to one shot him. She is stronger, but he is not so much weaker he dies immediately to her with his dust injections.

Again, Salem’s durability is irrelevant.

Then now your claim is that every Maiden in the verse is able to one shot every other character in the verse. In which case why are they downscaling in the first place? Why is Cinder not completely disintegrating Ruby and Friends with a casual wave of her hand? How on earth did she not kill Ruby with a fireball in Volume 5 if she can one shot her? Why did Winter not die instantly when Cinder even breathed in her direction? Can Winter without maiden powers one shot Hazel too? Who all is able to one shot Hazel in a comparable manner to the Long Memory? Why didn’t Salem one shot him when she was trying to get to Oscar? She could literally disintegrate him into nothing, but instead just lets him punch her?

Like there are far too many inconsistencies that are spawned from Cinder being able to one shot Hazel.

Why would his shield scale to Monstra? If it’s a KE based attack, he would just scale to how ever far away his shield was from the blast, not to Monstra’s durability because it killed Monstra.

That shows there was an explosion, not that Cinder broke through his shield. It seemed like his shield was actually holding up quite well. And right after their fight, we cut to the downed heroes talking for several minutes, then we go to Jaune and Pyrrha. The explosion she hears is not the one from Ozpin and Cinder’s clash, its from Cinder flying up after killing Ozpin.

There are several minutes worth of fighting we did not see on screen while Jaune and Pyrrha ran out of Beacon. Assuming that the explosions he heard was caused by that clash of magic isn’t really a solid guess imo. The shot of Pyrrha reacting and then cutting to Cinder shows that she was reacting to Cinder flying up, not the clash they had super far underground.
 
TheRustyOne said:
I thought the calc for Oscar's shield and the explosion was that Oscar made the explosion happen on top of Salem and Hazel. \

Not that his shield was the center of the explosion.

Using the distance and surface area used in this calc. And using the energy from this calc.

(67315479100000000000)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54661179823286580.88 Joules per m^2.

Shield Durability = 54661179823286580.88 * 24.2505 = 1325560941304611229.63 Joules, 316.81 Megatons (Mountain level)

However the 6-C results is incorrect. The mass needed for vaporizing clouds is just water density, while the calc above uses the full weight of the cloud.

KLOL says the mass should be divided by 1003. Doing that gives me a mass of 29634825154.2 kg, redoing the calculation.

Energy = 29634825154.2 * 2264705 = 67114136700842511 Joules, 16.04 Megatons.

(67114136700842511)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54497686771858.54 Joules per m^2

Shield Durability = 54497686771858.54 * 24.2505 = 1321596153060955.52427 Joules, 315.86 Kilotons (Large Town level)
Click to expand...
And yet the blast killed the mountain level whale

Looks like the higher/mountain level ke blast thing is back then
 
TheRustyOne said:
I thought the calc for Oscar's shield and the explosion was that Oscar made the explosion happen on top of Salem and Hazel. \

Not that his shield was the center of the explosion.

Using the distance and surface area used in this calc. And using the energy from this calc.

(67315479100000000000)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54661179823286580.88 Joules per m^2.

Shield Durability = 54661179823286580.88 * 24.2505 = 1325560941304611229.63 Joules, 316.81 Megatons (Mountain level)

However the 6-C results is incorrect. The mass needed for vaporizing clouds is just water density, while the calc above uses the full weight of the cloud.

KLOL says the mass should be divided by 1003. Doing that gives me a mass of 29634825154.2 kg, redoing the calculation.

Energy = 29634825154.2 * 2264705 = 67114136700842511 Joules, 16.04 Megatons.

(67114136700842511)/(4pi((7)^2))/2 = 54497686771858.54 Joules per m^2

Shield Durability = 54497686771858.54 * 24.2505 = 1321596153060955.52427 Joules, 315.86 Kilotons (Large Town level)
Click to expand...
Not necessary, calcs for this kind of feat do not apply unless you are on the outskirts of a blast, not at the heart of it like Oscar was
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Not necessary, calcs for this kind of feat do not apply unless you are on the outskirts of a blast, not at the heart of it like Oscar was
Click to expand...
So we're assuming Oscar made his shield blow up and not... Salem and Hazel?

With this logic, Hazel and Salem. Maiden comparable characters, where vaporized by that explosion from a distance of 7 meters.

Using the above again, but this time using the cross section area of a person.

54661179823286580.88 * 0.68 = 37169602279834874 Joules or 8.88 Megatons (City level). This value of 6-C is incorrect though.

54497686771858.54 * 0.68 = 37058427004863 Joules or 8.85 Kilotons (Town level)

This vaporized Hazel and Salem, which means they should be lower than this?
 
TheRustyOne said:
So we're assuming Oscar made his shield blow up and not... Salem and Hazel?

With this logic, Hazel and Salem. Maiden comparable characters, where vaporized by that explosion from a distance of 7 meters.

Using the above again, but this time using the cross section area of a person.

54661179823286580.88 * 0.68 = 37169602279834874 Joules or 8.88 Megatons (City level). This value of 6-C is incorrect though.

54497686771858.54 * 0.68 = 37058427004863 Joules or 8.85 Kilotons (Town level)

This vaporized Hazel and Salem.
Click to expand...
No? He was in the heart of the blast radius, an inverse square law is not required, ive literally been told this is the case by multiple calc members across multiple verse-wide revisions for other verses.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
No? He was in the heart of the blast radius, an inverse square law is not required, ive literally been told this is the case by multiple calc members across multiple verse-wide revisions for other verses.
Click to expand...
So you agree that 7-C energy is enough to vaporize Hazel? That’s Rusty’s main argument, not Oscar’s shield.

Edit: brb in a few minutes
 
WeeklyBattles said:
No? He was in the heart of the blast radius, an inverse square law is not required, ive literally been told this is the case by multiple calc members across multiple verse-wide revisions for other verses.
Click to expand...
No Salem and Hazel do need inverse square, since they aren't at the center according to you.

Are you listening? Oscar and Salem have a distance of 7 meters, they both can't be in the center. Someone needs the inverse square law here.
 
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