Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

[HammerStrikes219]

Xearsay and Beyond_transcending definitely seem to be involved in the group which has systematically engaged in extremely time-wasting prolonged stonewalling against matter-of-fact rebuttals and likely deliberately dishonest arguments related to DC Comics in particular.

Perhaps it would be more constructive to simply officially permanently forbid both them, Transcending, and Tetrahedron1234 from participating in any more content revision threads about this verse, rather than temporarily ban them from our entire forum and wiki?

Transcending has, at the very least, tried to be helpful at times and not misbehaved in terms of being outright toxic as far as I am aware.

While not a staff myself, I don’t think we should let this kind of vote manipulation as well as having to literally accusing a fellow non staff member of making up false accusations as well as wanting as far as punishing Deagon for that one when it is the exact opposite. That shouldn’t slide at all.

Topic ban from DC related stuff might work assuming they don’t find ways to work around the topic ban, but given the situation we are in when the evidence exposes vote manipulation to their favor and deliberately stonewall the argument of them being accused of doing vote manipulation as well as accusing @Deagonx of making false accusations. I think a temporary ban is more appropriate as they also did try to deny the accusations from Deagon as much as possible.


Also while I myself ain’t involved in DC threads, I do think we just should use a topic ban if it taken too far once again.

Edit: It is also just equally dishonest about not doing anything questionable behind the scenes when pressed on the topic the group was accused of doing.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he did just try to get me banned for exposing this whole debacle

Good point.

 

[Deagonx]

Topic ban from DC related stuff might work assuming they don’t find ways to work around the topic ban, but given the situation we are in when the evidence exposes vote manipulation to their favor and deliberately stonewall the argument of them being accused of doing vote manipulation as well as accusing @Deagonx of making false accusations.

I feel the same way. I would hate to see them back here in a few weeks after causing so much drama and stress, and to the very end denying that they did any of this despite the fact that, by the assessment of several admins, the evidence was absolutely staggering. And that they all came here in the express spirit of having me punished for calling it out.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I feel the same way. I would hate to see them back here in a few weeks after causing so much drama and stress, and to the very end denying that they did any of this despite the fact that, by the assessment of several admins, the evidence was absolutely staggering. And that they all came here in the express spirit of having me punished for calling it out.

The staff members did explicitly mention the temporary ban will last for at least a month or so.

Something that is a bit lenient as well, but honestly the whole reason for this debacle that started it is basically did start out in DC content revision threads as far as I am aware.

As I can see where Antvasima is coming from, and honestly a temporary ban with a potential topic ban related to DC might been appropriate all things considered too as they did seem to target mainly DC related threads.

 

[Transcending]

I do not know if I am allowed a final TL;DR post to defend myself, but I would like to make one on @Xearsay because he has done absolutely nothing and deserves no punishment. Here are all his messages from our GC-

If any message seems suspicious and context is needed, feel free to ask.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Looks like they should be banned for a while.

Have you banned this user?

Reporting this user. He changed a characters lifting strength without making a CRT about it, and each time I undid it and warned him he reverted it back, and when I warned him for the 4th time he just responded with "Report me 50 times then loser". He also reverted another person's edit that removed his calculation from the verse page and the involved character's page, even though it's been accepted here, with the reasoning that "it's a troll edit". He has also been warned multiple times before.

If you did you might wanna watch this user because he might be another account by him

 

[Damage3245]

Have you banned this user?

If you did you might wanna watch this user because he might be another account by him

I haven't banned them yet. I was hoping another staff member would confirm they should be banned and suggest how long for.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Xearsay and Beyond_transcending definitely seem to be involved in the group which has systematically engaged in extremely time-wasting prolonged stonewalling against matter-of-fact rebuttals and likely deliberately dishonest arguments related to DC Comics in particular.

Perhaps it would be more constructive to simply officially permanently forbid both them, Transcending, and Tetrahedron1234 from participating in any more content revision threads about this verse, rather than temporarily ban them from our entire forum and wiki?

Transcending has, at the very least, tried to be helpful at times and not misbehaved in terms of being outright toxic as far as I am aware.

My concern with a topic ban is that it doesn't really deal with the root of the issue, I feel. If they are willing to manipulate threads for one verse, why stop there? It will be easier from here on out to hide such machinations. Obviously the threat of more severe punishment exists should it be found, but I don't know if that is enough of a stopper.

Still, if you think that's better, I'd like to hear other relevant staff member's opinions, as this may well set a precedent for similar cases in the future. @Moritzva @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Qawsedf234 @Starter_Pack @KingTempest Apologies for the ping, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this'n.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

My concern with a topic ban is that it doesn't really deal with the root of the issue, I feel. If they are willing to manipulate threads for one verse, why stop there? It will be easier from here on out to hide such machinations. Obviously the threat of more severe punishment exists should it be found, but I don't know if that is enough of a stopper.

Still, if you think that's better, I'd like to hear other relevant staff member's opinions, as this may well set a precedent for similar cases in the future. @Moritzva @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Qawsedf234 @Starter_Pack @KingTempest Apologies for the ping, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this'n.

Yeah, that is fair. However, I don’t think we have any evidence that will also suggest they will do it to another verse currently. In the event it does occur to a different verse (or really any other verses) with a good deal of evidence, I will think a ban from getting involved into CRTs will been more appropriate than having just a single topic ban ie, they are no longer allowed to participate in CRTs in general.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Still, if you think that's better, I'd like to hear other relevant staff member's opinions, as this may well set a precedent for similar cases in the future. @Moritzva @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Qawsedf234 @Starter_Pack @KingTempest Apologies for the ping, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this'n.

I mean what you're suggesting is a perma-ban and just asking people to comment on a thread doesn't really warrant that in my view. A perma-topic ban also seems a bit hard. Just ban them for like three months or something in my view. If they do it again then a harsher penalty can be applied.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Xearsay and Beyond Transcending both appear to be equally involved in the issue as Moritzva pointed out; I'm not agreeing with an excessive punishments such as a permanent ban, but a month ban I thought might have been more reasonable. But I feel as if all 4 of them should be given the same treatment whichever we do based on the posts above and Deagon's evidential scans.

 

[Transcending]

Xearsay

What do you think of this?

I do not know if I am allowed a final TL;DR post to defend myself, but I would like to make one on @Xearsay because he has done absolutely nothing and deserves no punishment. Here are all his messages from our GC-

If any message seems suspicious and context is needed, feel free to ask.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean what you're suggesting is a perma-ban and just asking people to comment on a thread doesn't really warrant that in my view. A perma-topic ban also seems a bit hard. Just ban them for like three months or something in my view. If they do it again then a harsher penalty can be applied.

I never suggested a perma ban? Antvasima suggested a topic ban and I handed out a one-month normal ban. I presume a topic ban length could be discussed.

 

[Deagonx]

It will be easier from here on out to hide such machinations.

This is a very good point, as the only reason I was able to detect this was because I was in the discord server. However, they asked the server owner to kick me, so I will no longer have access to any of it. If it occurs again in the future, unless they repeat the same blatant "FRA" milling we will miss it from here on out, and given that none of them have even actually admitted to it happening, I don't see a short ban being remedial.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This is a very good point, as the only reason I was able to detect this was because I was in the discord server. However, they asked the server owner to kick me, so I will no longer have access to any of it. If it occurs again in the future, unless they repeat the same blatant "FRA" milling we will miss it from here on out, and given that none of them have even actually admitted to it happening, I don't see a short ban being remedial.

Tbh I do think this is the first time this happened as in evidence of vote manipulation being revealed, while I do agree with a harsh penalty for those involved in this case, I do think a permanent ban from the wiki and forum is pretty harsh altogether.

Edit: The staff could also make the ban longer if it occurs again.

 

[Antvasima]

This is a very good point, as the only reason I was able to detect this was because I was in the discord server. However, they asked the server owner to kick me, so I will no longer have access to any of it. If it occurs again in the future, unless they repeat the same blatant "FRA" milling we will miss it from here on out, and given that none of them have even actually admitted to it happening, I don't see a short ban being remedial.

Would a temporary full ban combined with a permanent topic ban be a good idea?

 

[Deagonx]

Would a temporary full ban combined with a permanent topic ban be a good idea?

I think so, yes.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tbh I do think this is the first time this happened as in evidence of vote manipulation being revealed , while I do agree with a harsh penalty for those involved in this case, I do think a permanent ban from the wiki and forum is pretty harsh altogether.

Edit: The staff could also make the ban longer if it occurs again.

This is fair. If similar activity occurs again, we will have a precedent for these users doing it and we can act on implication.

 

[Deagonx]

My concern with a topic ban is that it doesn't really deal with the root of the issue, I feel. If they are willing to manipulate threads for one verse, why stop there

I will add that this group of users is mostly concerned with DC, so I doubt they would collaborate on other verses or put together the same level of problematic effort.

To that end I think a topic ban would be effective for this case.

 

[CorbinMLG]

Reporting this user. He changed a characters lifting strength without making a CRT about it, and each time I undid it and warned him he reverted it back, and when I warned him for the 4th time he just responded with "Report me 50 times then loser". He also reverted another person's edit that removed his calculation from the verse page and the involved character's page, even though it's been accepted here, with the reasoning that "it's a troll edit". He has also been warned multiple times before.

Bump..?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bump..?

Apologies, I hadn't seen your report in the middle of the other ongoing discussion. I'll give the man an official warning.

 

[CorbinMLG]

Apologies, I hadn't seen your report in the middle of the other ongoing discussion. I'll give the man an official warning.

Looks like they should be banned for a while.

 

[Damage3245]

If Bambu thinks a warning should be given out first, that's fine with me.

 

[Xearsay]

Xearsay and Beyond Transcending both appear to be equally involved in the issue as Moritzva pointed out; I'm not agreeing with an excessive punishments such as a permanent ban, but a month ban I thought might have been more reasonable. But I feel as if all 4 of them should be given the same treatment whichever we do based on the posts above and Deagon's evidential scans.

I was busy with family drama the past couple days so I haven’t fully been able to partake in what’s going on here. So I will say this now.

Transcending might have asked people to create accounts to agree with his threads, but I never asked anyone to do that for my threads or anyone else’s. I also wasn’t a part of the private server Deagonx and Transcending were in, so I wasn’t even aware this type of activity was going on. And you can also see from my discord activity Transcending posted that I’ve been pretty much uninvolved with whatever voter manipulation they could have been doing. So I believe that I absolutely should be separated from whatever’s going on here.

One person violating rules doesn’t mean anyone and everyone who knows that person should be punished with them. So I’d like to personally be removed from this drama and from any possible punishments.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree with the above, and I think attempting to frame what's happening as "punishing anyone and everyone who knows them" is very dishonest.

As Mori said, it's clear from the evidence that he was directly involved. He was making the same kind of low-effort FRA comments immediately after the new users their group recruited to make accounts here. Him and Transcending were the ones making CRTs that the entire group would argue on in tandem with eachother, and he argued in support of them in the All-purpose thread as well as this thread and played coy about the whole scheme despite his first hand knowledge of it.

We know that links to each other's CRTs were being posted in their group chat that all of them are confirmed as being a part of. A few screencaps of people saying mundane things don't disprove the bad things that clearly happened. The fact that those screenshots are being used as prove of anything is honestly silly. He was directly participating in every action they took, and I don't see the above comment as being any different from the blind denial that the other users gave about their own actions, he is merely benefiting from the excuse of not being in the Discord for his direct statements to be caught in the screencaps, but his participation is obvious from the other evidence, and I think it's clear he's just exploiting the small shred of plausible deniability that the private group chat has given him.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

,

I disagree with the above, and I think attempting to frame what's happening as "punishing anyone and everyone who knows them" is very dishonest.

As Mori said, it's clear from the evidence that he was directly involved. He was making the same kind of low-effort FRA comments immediately after the new users their group recruited to make accounts here. Him and Transcending were the ones making CRTs that the entire group would argue on in tandem with eachother, and he argued in support of them in the All-purpose thread as well as this thread and played coy about the whole scheme despite his first hand knowledge of it.

We know that links to each other's CRTs were being posted in their group chat that all of them are confirmed as being a part of. A few screencaps of people saying mundane things don't disprove the bad things that clearly happened. The fact that those screenshots are being used as prove of anything is honestly silly. He was directly participating in every action they took, and I don't see the above comment as being any different from the blind denial that the other users gave about their own actions, he is merely benefiting from the excuse of not being in the Discord for his direct statements to be caught in the screencaps, but his participation is obvious from the other evidence, and I think it's clear he's just exploiting the small shred of plausible deniability that the private group chat has given him.

This I can agree with as it is pretty much suspicious already as you brought up their most recent attempt of asking the server owner to kick you out from the server you are part of and is a mod of as well which is something that anyone can infer as being from in denial.

Also I will ask you about that attempt on your wall since that is a different topic to tackle while the main topic was about how to handle the punishment (which is a bit lenient as it can get) where a month ban and a year or two year topic ban related to any DC CRTs is more appropriate.

Permanent topic ban isn’t something I can not completely agree with though since that should used if it occurs again.

 

[Deagonx]

Permanent topic ban isn’t something I can not completely agree with though since that should used if it occurs again.

The thing is though, proving it the first time was lightning in a bottle insofar as I happened to be in the Discord. If it happens again there will be no way to notice unless they rely on the same low-effort FRA style disagreements. They did succeed in having me kicked from the server for exposing this.

And given how thoroughly they've exploited every chance to deny culpability, and even went as far as to try and get me punished for bringing it up, I just don't get the impression that they are exhibiting any moral cognizance of their actions.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The thing is though, proving it the first time was lightning in a bottle insofar as I happened to be in the Discord. If it happens again there will be no way to notice unless they rely on the same low-effort FRA style disagreements.

And given how thoroughly they've exploited every chance to deny culpability, and even went as far as to try and get me punished for bringing it up, I just don't get the impression that they are exhibiting any moral cognizance of their actions.

Hmm fair point. I suppose a permanent topic ban from DC CRTs is warranted in that case since they try to strawman you and falsely accused you of making false accusations. Something that shouldn’t been taken lightly as well.

 

[Xearsay]

I disagree with the above, and I think attempting to frame what's happening as "punishing anyone and everyone who knows them" is very dishonest.

As Mori said, it's clear from the evidence that he was directly involved. He was making the same kind of low-effort FRA comments immediately after the new users their group recruited to make accounts here. Him and Transcending were the ones making CRTs that the entire group would argue on in tandem with eachother, and he argued in support of them in the All-purpose thread as well as this thread and played coy about the whole scheme despite his first hand knowledge of it.

We know that links to each other's CRTs were being posted in their group chat that all of them are confirmed as being a part of. A few screencaps of people saying mundane things don't disprove the bad things that clearly happened. The fact that those screenshots are being used as prove of anything is honestly silly. He was directly participating in every action they took, and I don't see the above comment as being any different from the blind denial that the other users gave about their own actions, he is merely benefiting from the excuse of not being in the Discord for his direct statements to be caught in the screencaps, but his participation is obvious from the other evidence, and I think it's clear he's just exploiting the small shred of plausible deniability that the private group chat has given him.

This doesn’t even make any sense. How does me agreeing with their threads prove that I was involved/participating in recruiting people to the site to manipulate votes? Also I barely participated in that all purpose thread. In that thread I made a total of maybe 2-3 comments in the beginning towards Ant and then left and never came back after having to focus on some family matters. Furthermore, as I already said I was not in the same server you and Transcending were a part of. Hence why I literally had no clue they were doing this. So I don’t know how I could “play coy” on something I didn’t even know was going on.

Similarly, how does them linking their threads to a chat I was in mean I was involved/participating in recruiting people to the site to manipulate votes? That chat only had like one other person in it who I wasn’t and still am not even really familiar with who that person is.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not going to go in circles with the same denialism that the other members of your group already attempted. The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Xearsay]

I'm not going to go in circles with the same denialism that the other members of your group already attempted. The evidence speaks for itself.

It’s not denialism. You’re literally bringing up things that don’t correlate with one another in attempt to get me punished on this site. Me agreeing with their threads doesn’t mean I recruited people to the site to manipulate votes. Me being in a chat with them doesn’t mean I recruited people to the site manipulate votes.

 

[Deagonx]

Sure. I guess all the admins got it wrong, and you are all completely innocent, since at this point all four of you have completely denied any wrongdoing.

Like Mori said, the evidence heavily contradicts this, and I don't care to have this go back and forth in perpetuity. The mods have enough information to draw a conclusion

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The way I see it, the reason Xear was not directly implicated in the discord scans is because he was not a part of the server I was in, but based on his actions and references made to him by the others, I think it's clear he was in on it. I suspect that if I had access to the group chat he was in with the others, we would see the same manner of thing.

More importantly, he had every opportunity throughout this entire debacle to separate himself from the others, come clean about what had been going on, and be forthright about his role in it. Instead he participated in the dogpiling and denialism that the others engaged in on the All-purpose thread, and in this thread about trying to get me banned for bringing up that it had happened. For that reason, I personally do not believe he should be excluded. We know at the very least that he was part of the same kind of thing from these messages:

Notably, he commented extremely generic "FRA" comments immediately after similar concepts from users confirmed from the messages to have been invited to VSBW for the explicit purpose of giving FRAs on CRTs, so the timing IMO makes it very clear that he was involved in the same thing. Especially since it happens on the same day as the quote "I posted the link to the CRT in our GC with xearsay"

Transcending

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tetrahedron1234

vsbattles.fandom.com

That is something that can not been denied as you are in a group chat with them.

However, it can been a mere coincidence that you decided to agree with the thread in question since that is pretty much a “FRA”

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It’s not denialism. You’re literally bringing up things that don’t correlate with one another in attempt to get me punished on this site. Me agreeing with their threads doesn’t mean I recruited people to the site to manipulate votes. Me being in a chat with them doesn’t mean I recruited people to the site manipulate votes.

However while this is true, there is also evidence that you likely have knowledge of vote manipulation for that matter.

Also for direct involvement, I will think it is mainly to make sure to get agreement votes if anything since there is no such evidence you do any of that for that matter.
@Transcending, however, can been considered as the one who did started this.

 

[Xearsay]

That is something that can not been denied as you are in a group chat with them.

However, it can been a mere coincidence that you decided to agree with the thread in question since that is pretty much a “FRA”

I never denied being in a chat with them on discord. However, the idea that because I’m in a chat with them means that I somehow recruited people to manipulate votes is what I disagree with.

However while this is true, there is also evidence that you likely have knowledge of vote manipulation for that matter.

How could I have knowledge on something that was happening in a server that I wasn’t a part of?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I never denied being in a chat with them on discord. However, the idea that because I’m in a chat with them means that I somehow recruited people to manipulate votes is what I disagree with.


How could I have knowledge on something that was happening in a server that I wasn’t a part of?

However, it doesn’t mean you aren’t directly involved with wanting to make agreements with specific threads in question. Also only @Deagonx did make that accusation. You can been still been accused of still getting involved with having to do agreement votes in specific threads

Also, you keep on using “I not involved into that server” point when you are still involved in a group chat with them.

Not to mention you did talk with them in private in matter while also you did defend them in this thread earlier including the all purpose thread.

Something I will admit is a bit more suspicious as well.

 

[Deagonx]

Not to mention you did talk with them in private in matter while also stubbornly defend them in this thread earlier including the all purpose thread.

Something I will admit is a bit more suspicious as well.

I will add, a week ago the first time I noticed a new user was in the mix who was exclusively dedicating his posts to agreeing with Transcending and Xear, and called it out, Xear tried to ridicule me for suspecting it.

Seems even more ridiculous now that it's been proven he knew what was going on.

But sure. B_T and Xear claim they were totally innocent. Unbelievable.

 

[Xearsay]

However, it doesn’t mean you aren’t directly involved with wanting to make agreements with specific threads in question. Also only @Deagonx did make that accusation. You can been still been accused of still getting involved with having to do agreement votes in specific threads.

Also, you keep on using “I not involved into that server” point when you are still involved in a group chat with them.

You can entertain the possibilities of what someone could be doing all you want. Literally the only thing that matters is whether you have proof that I actually did these things. And as of right now, my discord messages from the group chat that were posted by Transcending directly prove I wasn’t involved in any recruiting.

Not to mention you did talk with them in private in matter while also stubbornly defend them in this thread earlier including the all purpose thread.

Something I will admit is a bit more suspicious as well.

I defended myself in this thread and that’s really it. Same with the all purpose thread. I only made a few comments in the beginning towards Ant about my threads being locked. The heavy accusation flinging that happened later I didn’t even partake in.

As I said before I was very busy with family matters during the time all this stuff went down. The idea that I was “stubbornly” defending them is a pure exaggeration.

 

[Deagonx]

Literally the only thing that matters is whether you have proof that I actually did these things. And as of right now, my discord messages from the group chat that were posted by Transcending directly prove I wasn’t involved in any recruiting.

They prove no such thing. It would've been trivial to delete or omit any messages that actually implicated you, and you all have shown a willingness to lie.

The heavy accusation flinging that happened later I didn’t even partake in.

So I really don’t see the point in lying to act like we’ve been conspiring to get threads passed.

Yes, you did partake in it. You accused me of lying the same way that they did, and participated here as well when they tried to get me banned for the very lying you accused me of.

Literally the only thing that matters is whether you have proof that I actually did these things.

We do. That's the conclusion that's been drawn by several admins at this point.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You can entertain the possibilities of what someone could be doing all you want. Literally the only thing that matters is whether you have proof that I actually did these things. And as of right now, my discord messages from the group chat that were posted by Transcending directly prove I wasn’t involved in any recruiting.


I barely defended them in this thread. Same with the all purpose thread. I only made a few comments in the beginning towards Ant about my threads being locked. The heavy accusation flinging that happened later I didn’t even partake in.

As I said before I was very busy with family matters during the time all this stuff went down. The idea that I was “stubbornly” defending them is a pure exaggeration.

Decided to make a edit on the “stubbornly defend” since I choose to take a reread of the previous pages. Nonetheless, you still did defend them.

In any case, I say we should actually make the staff offer their input since this has dragged on longer than needed in this case.

Also you can not ignore the other evidence that @Deagonx did provided, but I let the other staff member handled it.