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Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

ZephyrosOmega has requested to be unbanned: https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:Antvasima?threadId=4400000000003412382

Upon reading the thread my take on the matter is probably clear but I will outline the main reasons why:

1. Zeph had a history of consistently being rude, aggressive and confrontational. I don't think I have ever interacted with her under any normal circumstances on the forum but I know about her through the many incidents and controversies she was in. And I think many users have been part of the same.

2. Following one of many outbursts, she requested to be banned from CRTs and vs threads, which was applied. But that didn't stop the controversies. In her last incident, she wrongfully (she disagrees) labelled Mr. Bambu as a "transphobic shitstain" on social media and on the forum in her signature instead of calmly approaching somebody with her grievances, which led to another controversy. That was the straw that broke the camel's back and she was banned for good. Before the ban was carried out she also expressed that she did not want to be part of this forum anymore.

After having the conversation with her, I still think she has a lot of unresolved issues and I don't feel convinced that history won't repeat itself. Even if she is not allowed in CRTs or vs threads, she is bound to run into the same people she had scuffles with again at some point and such restrictions did not prevent any controversy the last time. I personally think Zeph is disruptive and doesn't mix well with the wiki. I do remember Zeph being stressed out a lot because of the wiki and I also remember her causing a lot of problems. So I still think it's in everyone's best interest if both are kept away from each other.

EDIT: I was told that she was later unbanned from participating in CRTs and vs threads, but it should be noted that her participation in them was completely unrelated to the last incident she caused, which was mostly centered around something that happened on some discord group. It implies that a CRT restriction won't necessarily stop any conflicts.
If anything, it makes me more uneasy that something from discord about a permanently banned user poured into the forum. Something that could have been easily avoided but wasn't.
 
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I trust AKM's sense of judgement regarding this issue.
 
I know Zeph personally, many people can attest to that, I can state she's improved drastically with respect to her temperament so there won't be any problems.

I'm willing as far as to wager my credibility as staff regarding this, in fact.

So yeah, I guarantee there won't BE a problem as asserted, you can go so far as to demote me if it does.

There is no other "objective gauge for improvement", armchair psychology only extends so far. I know her character well by being her friend in the months following, isn't irrefutable exactly.
 
AKM sama said:
Zeph had a history of consistently being rude, aggressive and confrontational. I don't think I have ever interacted with her under any normal circumstances on the forum but I know about her through the many incidents and controversies she was in. And I think many users have been part of the same.
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Lots of users have a problem with rudeness but don't suffer permanent bans from it, and I believe a year timeframe along with the imposed bans (by moderator choice, not hers) will aid her in not getting into trouble.

AKM sama said:
That was the straw that broke the camel's back and she was banned for good. Before the ban was carried out she also expressed that she did not want to be part of this forum anymore.
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No logical discussion was had in regards to how lengthy of a ban she should have been given and was decided seemingly after the fact. She didn't want to be on the site anymore voluntarily and was granted that with no indication of facing punishment.

AKM sama said:
Even if she is not allowed in CRTs or vs threads, she is bound to run into the same people she had scuffles with again at some point and such restrictions did not prevent any controversy the last time.
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Except they did, and only after she requested said restrictions be lifted from herself (which you obliged) did she find herself arguing with people again. But it's been a year and her only want is to engage in RPs with friends and stick to the FC/OC side of the forum, which seems to me like it's a fair attempt to stay away from troubles because this time it's not an arbitrary enforcement the user put on themselves but instead one imposed by moderators, one not simply lifted at the request of the user because they were the ones that asked for it.

Zeph did delete her comments towards Bambu and no lasting damage has been suffered from it based on how things are today, the only controversy you'd argue has impacted Bambu more outside of the site is the one with Neo.

Zephyr should be allowed back with these conditions properly enforced, permaban should be considered if it continues.
 
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Let me be clear in saying that Zephyros comments hurt me, though my own feelings shouldn't be a factor in judging her today. SuperBearNeo had a grudge with me over Super Mario, Aly. Someone spreading a campaign about me being a transphobe and generally awful human being ain't comparable, I wish you wouldn't say it was. Truthfully, I've thought about that shit quite a lot.

Moving on to the matter at hand. I don't think Zephyros has changed much. It's not the impression I get, at least. If we were just letting her back into FC/OC stuff, I wouldn't have a problem. But I do maintain that she should not be allowed back into VSBW discussions.
 
To clear up a few things, what she did was without a doubt a permaban-worthy offense and part of her ban reason.

As for the restrictions I can see why they'd be helpful for her mental state, but she brought a controversy to the forum that was never on the forum to begin with. Something that was on discord about a permabanned member being brought to the forum has little to do with the ability to participate in CRTs/vs threads.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I don't think Zephyros has changed much. It's not the impression I get, at least.
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How would you know, though? Have you mantained contact with her over the months following that, or recently? You can't really say that.

Either way, as long as she mantains her restrictions given by staff (which even she mentioned was healthy), I'm good with her being back, and can also personally vouch on her better behavior. Specially given she wasn't banned from FC/OC, and she deserves access to the forum regardless.
 
I mean this is armchair psychology debate, again. Gives nothing.

Again, bluntly saying, you know nothing about the changes the person made to themselves over the course of months, I do, I was there, and in fact you don't have to take my word alone for it.

If another notable incident happened with Zephyros, you can demote me on the grounds of making false assertion. The wager is simple as that, I am that confident the person AKM describes is only an echo of my friend who I know has improved drastically ever since with regards to her temperament and assessment of the situation.

I don't think for a fraction the issue extends beyond this.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
SuperBearNeo had a grudge with me over Super Mario, Aly. Someone spreading a campaign about me being a transphobe and generally awful human being ain't comparable,
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But in terms of relative harm they have done to you or your character are about the same, only Zephyr has revoked her statements as they aren't on her Twitter anymore, she lashed out and then decided to remove what she said. Neither of these controversies are affecting you is what I'm saying.

Mr._Bambu said:
Moving on to the matter at hand. I don't think Zephyros has changed much. It's not the impression I get, at least.
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Your impression of her is her feeling the need to defend herself over being what's perceived as unjust treatment over a year later. You two do not speak, and have zero contact. You are speaking from bias here.

AKM sama said:
To clear up a few things, what she did was without a doubt a permaban-worthy offense and part of her ban reason.
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Her ban was firstly done at her request, whatever reasons that may have come up were after the fact.

AKM sama said:
As for the restrictions I can see why they'd be helpful for her mental state, but she brought a controversy to the forum that was never on the forum to begin with. Something that was on discord about a permabanned member being brought to the forum has little to do with the ability to participate in CRTs/vs threads.
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Is this not at least somewhat reminiscent of a similar case with Matt? Even if we ignore full context of the statements the individuals made and look strictly at the accusations to begin with, neither in that moment believed themselves to be incorrect, did they? Zeph retracted her Twitter posts and is receiving a permanent ban but Matt is still around. We aren't consistent.
 
Regarding ZephyrosOmega, as someone who has talked with her, debated her, discussed with her, ect. And I also have hit and miss records albeit the more recent ones were generally ones that resulted in positive relationships. I unfortunately am going to have to agree more with Bambu and AKM on this one. I am strictly against bias person when it comes to bans. I don't use my good friends' relationship be a good reason against banning people, likewise, no matter how much a pet peeve I get from some people, I cannot nor want to ban someone just for that if they haven't done anything that is either strictly against the rules nor has had a toxic influence on the community.

But for the topic at hand, Zephyros does have some really bad tendencies; I know her rudeness against people like Matt as well as what she used to have against me and Glassman regarding Final Fantasy on my case, and some DMC and Blazblue stuff Glass dealt with. I wouldn't consider those too bad especially in the past. But she also exploded all over Antvasima very reminiscent of that time Chartate exploded over Antvasima on his wall. Remember when all he did was point out a mathematically accurate statistic rating and Chartate took it out of context and falsely accused him of suggesting that discrimination against other groups wasn't half as bad as that one? The rating was based on number of instances and not severity of any individual act. Nor was it particularly relevant since he not only is fully aware of the horrendous treatment that all aforementioned groups faced. But Antvasima does not support discrimination towards any group period, nor do I, AKM, or Bambu. In fact, it's listed in our rules to consider all forms of Groupism/Xenophobia to be equally offensive with a 0 tolerance policy. And that also goes for politics and religion; simply having controversial opinions on those topics isn't an offense in itself, but being extremists is a different story and having terrorphobia is definitely NOT included under any form of xenophobia and thus there's no offense for having grudges against extremist groups specifically, but I will note this isn't the platform to discuss said topics in question. But as for why it's relevant; the way Zephyros randomly exploded over Antvasima when he all did was express some worry about the possibility of some irrelevant to gaming political opinion was Scott Cawthon reason for needing to step down as the main producer of FNAF. And she yelled and cussed at him when Antvasima simply wanted to address some misunderstandings here and there. Which again, Fandom is not a platform to discuss politics but Zephyros was clearly the one who was heated in that discussion and the thread got closed because of that discussion when most simply wanted to talk about Cawthon or FNAF.

But I would say the worst case aside from the numerous outbursts, which I'd rather avoid whataboutisms related to those, was her allegations towards Mr Bambu. Bambu is clearly not transphobic; in fact he admits all transphobes should be demoted at bare minimum if any happen to be staff and is not against removing them from the wiki iirc. Plus, he does have an LGBTQ sister whom he has often supported in the LGBTQ+ support parades and stuff. I do not know the full story about the Twitter or Angie situation. But Bambu wasn't the only one who "Misgendered" her; putting it quotes for a reason. But Wokistan also used male pronouns when she was stalking him or inviting him to group chats he didn't want to be apart of. And his reason was a quote from Wokistan.
I usually don't even use the male pronouns anymore, but can't really get down with associating a name that close to that of a family member with an internet sex pest, so "the grossman" it is

adios
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He's not transphobic either and tends to be rather left wing iirc. But either way, we aren't demoting Bambu or Wokistan just from something petty as that. And if you want a real comparison to what the transphobic allegations compares to, it's the fact that I can compile a list a lot of users and several former staff members who are all currently permabanned for giving false allegations of Antvasima being both an Islamophobe and a racist against people from the Middle-East. Both of which stem from some out of context 2017 era DM on Fanfiction which was more so expressing worry about a certain terrorist group invading his country at the time and I can vouch both allegations are false and confirmed by the fact that he alongside me and AKM agree that all racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, Anti-Semitists, Hinduphobes, Islamophobes, and Christophobes should all be banned from the wiki. Zeph's allegations towards Bambu are really not much different from what people all those users have done to Antvasima.

Anyway, I also agree with Bambu that what SBN did is much tamer compared to Zeph's actions. I'm not saying that even if I'm really good friends with SBN, in fact I don't disagree with his permaban from the wiki. I have a lot of disagreements with SBN including his harshness against AKM or Bambu. Especially if they also comment on his YouTube videos and say things that kind of provoke Neo; which he wouldn't be making videos related to VSBW if some people left him alone in the first place. Plus, he actually does make effort to be constructive with his criticism and I also agree that a lot of situations were handled poorly even though I vehemently disagree with other allegations he had with other staff. And in the end, he doesn't falsely accuse people of those xenophobia's and what not.

In conclusion, I don't particularly want Zephyros to stay banned per say. But based on general feedback, it's better off if she stays banned and thus I overall think she should. Her outbursts do happen a lot, and I already have seen them on that discussion, and we can't have people who are going to commit to gossip harassment against our staff be allowed here. So those are my thoughts on the matter.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But as for why it's relevant; the way Zephyros randomly exploded over Antvasima when he all did was express some worry about the possibility of some irrelevant to gaming political opinion was Scott Cawthon reason for needing to step down as the main producer of FNAF. And she yelled and cussed at him when Antvasima simply wanted to address some misunderstandings here and there. Which again, Fandom is not a platform to discuss politics but Zephyros was clearly the one who was heated in that discussion and the thread got closed because of that discussion when most simply wanted to talk about Cawthon or FNAF.
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But then it wasn't Zephyr who injected politics into the discussion, it started with Ant expressing his worries and then Zeph responding to that. If FANDOM isn't the place to discuss politics then Ant shouldn't have brought up his political worry to begin with, he opened himself up to response.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
But I would say the worst case aside from the numerous outbursts, which I'd rather avoid whataboutisms related to those, was her allegations towards Mr Bambu. Bambu is clearly not transphobic
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Okay, but understand that you are arguing against the perceptions of a transgender woman who in the moment believed him to be acting in such a way (regardless of if it is correct or not) and are judging that in the present where the allegation is not public on Twitter but is instead retracted. Whether it is clear to you shouldn't have any bearing on the conversation because in the moment of any allegation the person making it believes themselves to be correct, they aren't acting out of maliciousness.

I also believe you want to avoid whataboutisms (which you then used yourself with Wok) because it actually hurts the case against Zephyr here:

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And if you want a real comparison to what the transphobic allegations compares to, it's the fact that I can compile a list a lot of users and several former staff members who are all currently permabanned for giving false allegations of Antvasima being both an Islamophobe and a racist against people from the Middle-East.
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No I believe Matt's usage of Discord comments to label Lina a litany of the most terrible things you could accuse someone of being is a perfect comparison: It came from off-site, a heated accusation was made public, both people believed themselves to be correct at the time, and both are "long-time helpful members".

The crux of the problem here is that Matt was never permanently banned even after this, he at most got a month.

Don't construe this as me defending Lina here though, my point of the issue is that we aren't being consistent in how we prescribe punishment. And if we want to permanently ban Zephyr after a year of her already having a chance of reform off-site over outbursts and accusations made a year ago then I'd wager Matt be permanently banned as well for the same thing to keep our integrity.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
But Bambu wasn't the only one who "Misgendered" her; putting it quotes for a reason. But Wokistan also used male pronouns when she was stalking him or inviting him to group chats he didn't want to be apart of. And his reason was a quote from Wokistan.
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The problem here is that just because Wok did it doesn't mean Zeph had to call him out too, she only needed to call out Bambu because that's what she saw and felt the need to speak out about.

In short, if we are focusing on the accusation to keep Zephyr permanently banned then we should apply the same to Matt. Either that or let her back with the allocated board bans to keep her out of trouble.

Those are my thoughts.
 
Abstractions said:
But then it wasn't Zephyr who injected politics into the discussion, it started with Ant expressing his worries and then Zeph responding to that. If FANDOM isn't the place to discuss politics then Ant shouldn't have brought up his political worry to begin with, he opened himself up to response.
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While I agree Ant should have avoided bringing it up, he wasn't saying anything outright inflammatory. It was more so he hoped there was no he got fired from his job simply because of whom he voted for, Zephyros saying "I'm sorry for not supporting people who want me dead" was the comment that started inflammatory.
Abstractions said:
Okay, but understand that you are arguing against the perceptions of a transgender woman who in the moment believed him to be acting in such a way (regardless of if it is correct or not) and are judging that in the present where the allegation is not public on Twitter but is instead retracted. Whether it is clear to you shouldn't have any bearing on the conversation because in the moment of any allegation the person making it believes themselves to be correct, they aren't acting out of maliciousness.

I also believe you want to avoid whataboutisms (which you then used yourself with Wok) because it actually hurts the case against Zephyr here:
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Another difference is that Bambu later explained why he wasn't and shared other details the first time it was brought up. But Zephyros still had strong beliefs against that. I also wasn't asking "What about Wokistan" it was more so a simple statement he did that to, but it was just a simple statement to say that wasn't evidence of transphobia. I have friends who are transgender too, and they're not easily offended by simple uses of wrong pronouns.
Abstractions said:
No I believe Matt's usage of Discord comments to label Lina a litany of the most terrible things you could accuse someone of being is a perfect comparison: It came from off-site, a heated accusation was made public, both people believed themselves to be correct at the time, and both are "long-time helpful members".

The crux of the problem here is that Matt was never permanently banned even after this, he at most got a month.
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Actually, Matt wasn't even banned. Not from that specifically, he simple got demoted from Content Mod to Blue name. He was banned for 2 weeks based on drama on Sonic threads and later banned for a month when he called Mario supporters some homophobic slurs; which 1 month was far too generous and that should have been a year at least.
Abstractions said:
The problem here is that just because Wok did it doesn't mean Zeph had to call him out too, she only needed to call out Bambu because that's what she saw and felt the need to speak out about.

In short, if we are focusing on the accusation to keep Zephyr permanently banned then we should apply the same to Matt. Either that or let her back with the allocated board bans to keep her out of trouble.
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Not really my point, the point is that saying a wrong pronoun by accident or was oblivious about other details combined with Angie still legit talking in an awkward manner isn't really transphobic. Also, I don't know about Lina even if the Triple K + Pedophile allegations are indeed extreme and don't agree with those. But Lina has often behaved problematic for other reasons. Bambu on the other hand is a well meaning admin with good intentions and one of the last people one would expect to be transphobic in the first place. Plus her allegations extended to the whole wiki, and not just Bambu when she said "I can never support a wiki that lets transphobic people in the staff".

Another comparison is Amexin; Amexin was another user who had often been prone to having massive outbursts and called a lot of staff transphobic for deleting some pages to a verse that didn't meat our guidelines. Which the patterns of her behavior were similar albeit tamer. But I'd like to wait for AKM Sama to come back to give further thoughts.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
While I agree Ant should have avoided bringing it up, he wasn't saying anything outright inflammatory. It was more so he hoped there was no he got fired from his job simply because of whom he voted for, Zephyros saying "I'm sorry for not supporting people who want me dead" was the comment that started inflammatory.

Another difference is that Bambu later explained why he wasn't and shared other details the first time it was brought up. But Zephyros still had strong beliefs against that. I also wasn't asking "What about Wokistan" it was more so a simple statement he did that to, but it was just a simple statement to say that wasn't evidence of transphobia. I have friends who are transgender too, and they're not easily offended by simple uses of wrong pronouns.
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This probably isn't my place to interject but as another trans woman I feel the need to call bullshit on these particular points. Stating that you do not have support for people who openly support the ongoing bigotry and attempted genocide of trans people across the world is not inflammatory. That is to say, it's as inflammatory as saying any other form of bigotry should not warrant support. If we as a wiki claim to stand against bigotry in all its forms, yet act as though people who stand against and oppose such bigotry are being "inflammatory", then that's pretty ******* hypocritical.

Also, do not bring the personal preferences of your friends into this. Misgendering is something that is very commonly perceived as offensive against trans people. Your friends not minding as much does not affect the preferences of every other trans person (nor should it), and the person in question here very obviously took great offense to misgendering. This is more or less the "I can't be racist because I have black friends" bullshit with a fresh coat of paint.

Anyways, apologies if I'm interrupting or derailing. I just despise the paining of trans people's struggles as things they need to 'just shut up and get over' or whatever, and these statements feel very close to that.
 
Again, it is not my place to determine which side is correct regarding the allegations towards "Whom they voted for" or some being worse than others. (As for my thoughts, I just dislike all American political parties generally speaking save examples like Vermin Supreme). Also again, Antvasima wouldn't intentionally support someone who wants to genocide any group. Plus, he follows other channels who allegedly know more details which he has shown with me in DMs. Did not agree with everything, but it's also not my place. Still, Ant wasn't cursing and had doubts about a selective few being xenophobic where has Zephyros still get really explosive.

The "Preference of my friend" wasn't the point either. More like she had a better understanding that doing so by accident isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Deliberate misgendering on the other hand is deeply offensive yes. Also, it's more like a "Take up to DMs and let it out there rather than do so publicly."
 
Just a note that I have a history of severe mental illness before I came to Fandom, and it has taken me several years to mostly recover from that.

I am also mid-level autistic to start with, and as is very common on that front, I used to be stuck in my own head, have serious limitations in terms of personal experience, social common sense, and mental filters (both outwards and inwards), and take almost everything I heard literally.

Meaning, the further back you go, the more easy I was to indoctrinate and incite into fear and paranoia via political propaganda, including about Jihadism. I have grown much better in that regard over the years, due to continuous active personal development work.

However, even so, I have never supported genuine bigotry. I mean, almost half my family tree was murdered by the Nazis. I am not that much of an idiot.

Anyway, Medeus is one of our nicest and most hardworking staff members. He definitely does not mean any harm.
 
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This isn't about Zephyros or anybody else being trans. This isn't about Zephyros rampantly labeling people as transphobes with little care for context. This isn't about any of that. This is about judging whether or not Zephyros has changed. Her friends seem to think she has. Her friends are people I would generally trust as character witnesses. In this specific instance I am hesitant to do so, because of the direction conversations seem to go about this.

Even now Zephyros hangs to a story that I am a dreadful bigot. Amends aren't made. It's all bullshit. This is an individual who consistently assassinates my character without relent on the basis of my beef with Grossman. To hell with the other transgendered people I never instigated anything with. That doesn't matter. From this, and from this behavior continuing up to today, I can surmise everything I need to. Letting her in is just a matter of time before more shit hits the fan. That's all.
 
Just a note that we should not demote Impress because of this. She is a helpful and productive staff member.

Let's wait to see what AKM thinks about the input above regarding Zephyros.
 
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I agree with Bambu. Zeph only agreed to talk to Bambu now that she wants to come back, when it's beneficial for her, and only if it could guarantee her return. I want to believe Impress and Abstractions, but they are also Zeph's friends. I also believe Zeph can be and is a good user in her friends' group, it's only natural. But if my friend is behaving fine in my circle but has had beef repeatedly with several users on the forum which resulted in many outbursts in the past, I definitely wouldn't be confident about bringing them back. It's one thing how they interact with friends, and another thing how they interact in a forum where they encounter all kinds of people they had beef with.

From my own conversation on the long message wall thread, I don't feel so confident about the change. As anybody can get from reading the thread, there are still unresolved issues that are bound to come up again at some point and she sounds combative about them for someone appealing to be unbanned. I feel like her being here will most probably end up in more drama down the line. I'm just not up for taking that risk again so I think it is better for everyone that things stay like they are.
 
This assertion that being Zeph's friend somehow clouds our judgement seems to imply that you believe we are nepotistic or have poor judge of character, AKM. Neither are the cases for me.

If anything I can claim Bambu can be biased, and given this is a ban discussed year prior, you all are lacking immense context in order to reliably make a judgement here, and are mostly going off face value assertions which are very well unreliable.
 
I never claimed that it clouded your judgment or anybody here has a poor judge of character. All I said is someone can behave in a certain way with friends but completely differently with others. How one behaves around friends should not be a scale to judge someone's actual behavior. We are all looking at something from different positions. Things seem different from different perspectives. Someone can see something from one angle and it will differ with respect to another person seeing from another angle. I just shared my observations and reasons for disagreeing.
 
And I state I have accounted for that behaviour, it's not like I reside in an echo chamber with her, I know in fact her interactions with people she even tends to dislike vehemently, and the assertion that it'll cause further drama is downright inaccurate by my own observations.

You would be asserting I'd have a poor judge of character if I didn't consider something as basic as maybe she's nice only to me/around me". I have considered that, if I didn't I wouldn't be making this post.
 
I see your point, Impress. That's your perception. Unfortunately, I did not get the same confidence after talking to her in the thread.
Zeph only agreed to talk to Bambu now that she wants to come back, when it's beneficial for her, and only if it could guarantee her return. From my own conversation on the long message wall thread, I don't feel so confident about the change. As anybody can get from reading the thread, there are still unresolved issues that are bound to come up again at some point and she sounds combative about them for someone appealing to be unbanned. I feel like her being here will most probably end up in more drama down the line. I'm just not up for taking that risk again so I think it is better for everyone that things stay like they are.
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I feel that it is very likely that another episode will happen, so I maintain my view.
 
I will say that thread you're basing your character study on did very well feel like Zephyros getting cornered since she was getting forced to argue with 3 high-ranked members over an extended period of time with no one chiming in for support. Far more calmer users, hell even staff members, have resorted to passive aggressive comments, insults, or even outbursts in similar scenarios, especially when their own messages are getting ignored for other's, so I feel penalizing her behaviour in that is somewhat ridiculous. Her initial behaviour is completely perfect and her behaviour afterwards is still very easily justifiable since they aren't even rude to begin with.

And I personally think it's abit hypocritical an assertion that Zephyros didn't automatically hand out the olive branch she had a conflict with, in general it isn't like you'd have to be perfect friends with a person you may have wronged, and assuming they'd be receptive of you automatically is a naive thought.
 
The_Impress said:
This assertion that being Zeph's friend somehow clouds our judgement seems to imply that you believe we are nepotistic or have poor judge of character, AKM. Neither are the cases for me.

If anything I can claim Bambu can be biased, and given this is a ban discussed year prior, you all are lacking immense context in order to reliably make a judgement here, and are mostly going off face value assertions which are very well unreliable.
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The implication is that I'm biased already. I'm trying not to be. I assume you are, too. The idea, I believe, is that anybody can be subconsciously biased. I don't like reducing my points in that way, but it has been done. But if I am biased, why would you not be, as her friend? Conversely, why would DDM be biased, for example?

That's how my vote has been degraded in this thread. That I'm biased and to some degree vengeful. But that goes both ways, I think. I think it's fair that Aly thinks I may have some bias. But I also think it's fair for AKM to think the same of you.
 
You can say I have bias, as AKM purported to a degree and I didn't penalize him but addressed him, as such to prove I am not voiding facts due to said bias and letting it cloud my judgement, again, you can literally demote me from my position if I am inaccurate in my very assertion, that is a consequence I am willing to bear. So now that I have things to lose, if I weren't sure of my assessment, Bambu, and didn't demonstratively force myself to at least consider if I were wrong, and still decided that I'm correct on my assertions, that's rigid.

Also I never claimed AKM, Ant, DDM or anyone else has bias save for you, and currently Aly, I asserted rest are lacking context of her growth.

Currently the argument is bunch of your hypotheticals regarding Zephyros' behaviour vs. my experiences, and I am willing to wager on said experience.

I'm sorry if you were offended Bambu, but you just illustrated the very point I said, that if AKM can assert that me and Aly either have some bias or poor judge of character, so can the opposing side since it's just meaningless assertions, so my wager makes it concrete.
 
What pressure does it put? It's not like I'm lying here, or some assertion of being biased, having a poor judge of character, or something else, and I am not leaving it to "bro trust me tho" either, it's a valid wager, and I don't see how anyone's... pressured by something this straight forward.
 
Andytrenom said:
It's just not necessary to bring up stakes like this in a matter that is just supposed to be a formal discussion of whether someone should be allowed back
Click to expand...
The discussion currently is reliant on armchair psychoanalysis of a person, complete character witness, there isn't really anything formal to discuss

She just won't do it, she's here to participants in her friend's roleplay thing that only happens to be on VSBW, and then not use the wiki. There isn't a chance for there to even be a second incident, I can guarantee it.
 
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