• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Rule Against Verses With Slurs In Name

Status
Not open for further replies.
The_Impress said:
I still retain the opinion it is just as offensive just working around the word when said workaround is so damn lazy it is LITERALLY a two letter change, especially when unless you're vary, "n" and "r" look the same when skimming through, except now you look like you're working around a slur filter to say the thing, which you yourself should recognise how pathetic that is. I don't think the warning does anything since it's in the page's name.
Click to expand...
I am under the impression that this is just picking hairs at this point.

Could people misread Ningen as a slur? Most definitely. But with your example of people scrolling by fast, there is plenty of opportunities for people to see a word, think it's something else, realize it didn't say what they thought it said, and continue on with their scrolling.

This just sounds completely paranoid at this point. Again, just change the title to the SFW version of it, make NO mention of the other version of the title in the page, and most casual visitors won't even bat an eye about it.
 
Stop with the sarcasm/light trolling please. Nobody here has any problem with that title in itself.
 
Impress' post definitely expressed a problem with it because it sounds close to a slur. That's just dumb imo. It's not the slur, it doesn't even include it as a substring. Ningen just means person. It was mainly choosen as the replacement because of Dragon Ball Super Zamasu Memes.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Ningen just means human. I find it very insulting to insinuate that the name is "vile". Dog Ningen is not a slur.
Click to expand...
Given that the series is written by two black men, I agree that there's something not great about saying the n word being in the title makes the "vileness apparent from just turning up on your search results", but that's a sociopolitical discussion that will definitely derail this thread.
 
ShivaShakti said:
There are many words in eastern languages which sound similar to the N word (Nigeru, Niga, etc.) We simply need to acknowledge that english is the not the only language which exists.
Click to expand...
Most slur words in general are derived from a poor spelling or pronunciation (Deliberately even more so) of an ethnic or religious adjective. There is a country in Africa, which is where that word got its spelling.

But I still do agree with one point is that if Fandom staff specifically are fine with the name changed work around, then it is fair.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Impress' post definitely expressed a problem with it because it sounds close to a slur. That's just dumb imo. It's not the slur, it doesn't even include it as a substring. Ningen just means person. It was mainly choosen as the replacement because of Dragon Ball Super Zamasu Memes.
Click to expand...
Okay. I apologise for my exaggerated choice of words above.
 
ShivaShakti said:
There are many words in eastern languages which sound similar to the N word (Nigeru, Niga, etc.) We simply need to acknowledge that english is the not the only language which exists.
Click to expand...
I think Zark is aware from this, given she's from India. I think we can agree it'd be damn weird if she wasn't, aye? That said, English is the language of the site. So like... I don't know the merit in making this point.

Impress' post definitely expressed a problem with it because it sounds close to a slur. That's just dumb imo. It's not the slur, it doesn't even include it as a substring. Ningen just means person. It was mainly choosen as the replacement because of Dragon Ball Super Zamasu Memes.
Click to expand...
Her point was that using "Ningen" in this context is just a modification of the slur word. It's two letters off. It's no different than, say, replacing letters with x or asterisks to avoid a slur filter. Context matters, Matt, you're trying to attack a point that literally isn't being made lol.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I think Zark is aware from this, given she's from India. I think we can agree it'd be damn weird if she wasn't, aye? That said, English is the language of the site. So like... I don't know the merit in making this point.
Click to expand...
Because we index multiple characters and series which originate from these cultures. Joseph Joestar often shouts "Nigerundayo" in his own series. Zamasu says the word "Ningen" often as well. The fact that our site is primarily english isn't truthfully a point, considering that we don't only index english settings.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Her point was that using "Ningen" in this context is just a modification of the slur word. It's two letters off. It's no different than, say, replacing letters with x or asterisks to avoid a slur filter. Context matters, Matt, you're trying to attack a point that literally isn't being made lol.
Click to expand...
I think people are confused, because in her second post, impress called the word Ningen equally offensive and then went on to call the series vile several times. From that, it's very clear that Impress' feelings about the series aren't just about Fandom shutting us down for bypassing a slur filter (the concern about fandom's moderation is totally fine imo).

That being said, I think the reasonable thing to do now is wait and see what Fandom says. There's no rush to index Dog Man right now.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Her point was that using "Ningen" in this context is just a modification of the slur word.
Click to expand...
No it’s not. It translates to Human, making the full title “Dog Human”, which is literally what the protagonist is, it’s not a lazy substitute, it’s a genuine sfw way to title the manga
 
I personally think the verse is too grotesque to feature on this wiki anyways, but let’s not act like the sfw title not being an adequate substitution is the reason why
 
Pikaman said:
No it’s not. It translates to Human, making the full title “Dog Human”, which is literally what the protagonist is, it’s not a lazy substitute, it’s a genuine sfw way to title the manga
Click to expand...
It is two letters off of the slur which is the original name. Let's not play dumb, aye? We all can spell. We all know what the intent is.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It is two letters off of the slur which is the original name. Let's not play dumb, aye? We all can spell. We all know what the intent is.
Click to expand...
I can understand the fact there’s minimal difference in the spellings, and it may have even been a small influence in the decision to name it that way, but just maybe they called the manga Dog Human because the protagonist is... a dog-human hybrid? Also the fact there’s other fandom pages that use the sfw title as shown above in the thread
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Yeah, I’m not seeing the issue with using “Dog Ningen”. ‘Ningen’ obviously is not a slur and is apparently applicable on Fandom’s platform.
Click to expand...

shows fandom staff aren’t as cynical as you on this matter.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It is two letters off of the slur which is the original name. Let's not play dumb, aye? We all can spell. We all know what the intent is.
Click to expand...
Actually, this is addressed in the manga, by the author (I just read the first volume. It's a quick read, and actually pretty good).

The author directly states, "Hey, if you're not black, call it Dog-Ningen"....and considering the author is black and would clearly understand if this is or isn't offensive to black people, well, that statement is good enough for me to say, "this makes it inoffensive".

How Fandom mods will react to it is another issue, which does need to be resolved.
 
It isn't about the word Ningen itself but the intent in its use and the disrespectful nature of its application in relation to the other word and vice versa.
 
A case can very easily be made for its use as purely for shock value and it doesn't change the offensive history behind the term. The latter being something that is beyond the scope of their work, this wiki, or fandom. I don't feel comfortable with it on that alone.
 
KatBoi69 said:
Actually, this is addressed in the manga, by the author (I just read the first volume. It's a quick read, and actually pretty good).

The author directly states, "Hey, if you're not black, call it Dog-Ningen"....and considering the author is black and would clearly understand if this is or isn't offensive to black people, well, that statement is good enough for me to say, "this makes it inoffensive".

How Fandom mods will react to it is another issue, which does need to be resolved.
Click to expand...
The author knows people probably shouldn't say the N word, yeah. So he used a word that isn't the N word, but pretty close. I don't know how you can argue that isn't the intent lmao. We're being purposefully obtuse here. It isn't even about whether the author is being disrespectful, it's that the word is objectively a slur and the alt name is just another word that is spelled close to the slur, but not.
 
Who cares...? It's not the n-word, it has its own meaning (sure, Ningen may be a stand in for another word here, but "Dog Ningen" literally just means "Dog Man", it's a title that stands on its own). I doubt Fandom would give a shit - just wait for their answer. It's not on us to judge the morality or appropriateness of the story's title, or the intent behind it.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
The author knows people probably shouldn't say the N word, yeah. So he used a word that isn't the N word, but pretty close. I don't know how you can argue that isn't the intent lmao. We're being purposefully obtuse here. It isn't even about whether the author is being disrespectful, it's that the word is objectively a slur and the alt name is just another word that is spelled close to the slur, but not.
Click to expand...
The intent is that they don't want non-black people saying the n word, but want non-black people to be able to discuss the manga. The author is clearly satisfied that ningen is not the n word.

The difference between a word being a slur and not being a slur is night and day. It's literally all the difference. The only time I've ever seen someone problematize a stand-in word like it is the slur is when someone uses the stand-in as an insult.
 
If we are going to have a discussion on the morality due to the history of the n word, and "shock value", we may as well remove our Boondocks profiles from the wiki then.
 
It being nearly a swear is weak since

A: It is NOT a slur and causes 0 offence, given the only similarities are spelling, and there’s a whole dictionary of words in English, foreign languages, and country names that fall under the exact same criteria

B: The name actually makes sense in the context of the story

It’s a perfectly adequate and sfw substitute that probably has more to do with its relevance to the story and less “hurr durr almost n word”

also if the whole point is not making people say the slur why pick a word that close? It was picked for its relevance to the story, not as a lazy cop out way to censor the title. Even if it was, how does that make it offensive? It’s not a slur, it’s only close to a slur in spelling, what issues arise from this title? It still stands on it’s own
Pikaman said:
I personally think the verse is too grotesque to feature on this wiki anyways, but let’s not act like the sfw title not being an adequate substitution is the reason why
Click to expand...
 
Bambu, you are not making sense.

If the title is accepted to be called Dog Ningen instead of the alternative, why is this even an issue? Just use the SFW version of the title, and let that be that. Ningen is not a slur. Period.

As for the content, I can see how it can be a tad unsettling, and I could be open for discussion. I would just like it settled that the title should not be the reason why the verse gets deleted, and I will stand by this.
 
Starter_Pack said:
As for the content, I can see how it can be a tad unsettling, and I could be open for discussion. I would just like it settled that the title should not be the reason why the verse gets deleted, and I will stand by this.
Click to expand...
Dog Ningen would be one of many verses on our wiki with disturbing or questionable content. I don't think its content is worth discussion.
 
Starter_Pack said:
As for the content, I can see how it can be a tad unsettling, and I could be open for discussion. I would just like it settled that the title should not be the reason why the verse gets deleted, and I will stand by this.
Click to expand...
Considering we have Drawn Together, South Park, and Berserk, this should not be an issue.

It's an action manga with edgy themes, that is appropriate for the wiki and can just be put with that mature content template
 
That's more than acceptable, then. As I said, I was open to discussion about that. If everyone else is fine with it, then so am I.
 
ShivaShakti said:
If we are going to have a discussion on the morality due to the history of the n word, and "shock value", we may as well remove our Boondocks profiles from the wiki then
Click to expand...
There will come a time when people will stop misrepresenting the issue, I'm sure of it. Unfortunately not today.

The content isn't the issue. Nor is the author's nationality- they're probably a fine human being. I do not give a single ****. The problem is you people keep handwaving away the slur with an alt name, saying something like "oh well actually it means human so nyeheheh". Yeah man. I know. That's irrelevant. The word was so ******* clearly chosen to avoid the slur, the meaning is convenient but irrelevant. The fact remains that it is only a couple letters from the original name, and the original name is a damn foul slur- regardless of the intent of the author.

If we make it clear that one can just bypass slurs while still more or less meaning the same thing, that's a problem to me. That is my issue.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
If we make it clear that one can just bypass slurs while still more or less meaning the same thing, that's a problem to me. That is my issue.
Click to expand...
That isn't what anyone against this rule addition is arguing for. They're saying that when a black author gives you an alternate word for a slur that specifically effects black people, in the specific instance of a title of their own work, and they say "This is the way you should refer to this work if you aren't black", then it's fine to use that title.

No one is arguing that you're allowed to freely post rephrased slurs on the forum for fun, or something.

You are literally choosing the "shocking title" with the largest inherent uphill battle to try and pass this rule change.
 
I mean. I personally don't care about the name, in all honesty - the only issue, as far as I'm concerned, is what Fandom will and won't allow. If the work meets other criteria necessitated by the wiki and isn't complete abhorrent garbage, who cares? Other, worse verses with worse names are a different matter entirely. It's not on us to judge a work morally.
 
KatBoi69 said:
That isn't what anyone against this rule addition is arguing for. They're saying that when a black author gives you an alternate word for a slur that specifically effects black people, in the specific instance of a title of their own work, and they say "This is the way you should refer to this work if you aren't black", then it's fine to use that title.

No one is arguing that you're allowed to freely post rephrased slurs on the forum for fun, or something.

You are literally choosing the "shocking title" with the largest inherent uphill battle to try and pass this rule change.
Click to expand...
I am aware of what you're saying. I am pointing out a separate issue, one in which the race of the author or their intent has little meaning.

You keep referencing this as if every thread is a ******* publicity stunt and frankly it's getting old. Zark isn't doing this for kudos and I sure as **** ain't, coz I dunno if you noticed, I don't get many of those around here. I'm speaking my mind because this is what I think about the issue at hand, if you could possibly find a way to understand that, that I don't have a ******* agenda to come out with the most le epic internet points, I'd wildly appreciate that, my man. Thanks.
 
I think I am going to have an aneurysm.
 
Love the sheer strawmanning on the thread.

Honestly I don't even have to write a single point further from my original post in readdressal, since opinions against are just "no its not" and shit I don't even claim is the issue. People taking "offense" to something I said or claiming I am doing this for cookie points should stick to their twitter and reddit accounts respectively because I don't care enough to do either.

And I don't think not having a verse listed on Vs. Battles Wiki really comes under some violation of free speech.

If my points just get outvoted, meh, it's a subjective proposal thus far since I can't really demonstrate the problems given we've avoided listing the verse thus far, but I know they'll occur eventually, and boy will that be a "told you so" from me.

I don't care enough to post further if these are levels of arguments brought against the proposal, what I've stated is already sufficient and general disagreements or fallacies don't need addressing
 
Promestein said:
I mean. I personally don't care about the name, in all honesty - the only issue, as far as I'm concerned, is what Fandom will and won't allow. If the work meets other criteria necessitated by the wiki and isn't complete abhorrent garbage, who cares? Other, worse verses with worse names are a different matter entirely. It's not on us to judge a work morally.
Click to expand...
FANDOM allows Dog Ningen considering we have a profile of the series on another wiki
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Regarding Page Names (Semantics)
Replies
18
Views
1K
KLOL506
KLOL506
DarkGrath
  • Locked
Proposal for Off-Site Rules Revision
2 3
Replies
93
Views
8K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Antvasima
  • Sticky
Wiki Vandalism Reports
8 9 10
Replies
387
Views
24K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Bobsican
  • Locked
Editing Rules: A recent CRT mistakenly removed some rules plus other stuff
2 3
Replies
93
Views
4K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Iamunanimousinthat
  • Locked
The Issue with "Name Fallacy"
Replies
21
Views
3K
KingTempest
KingTempest
Back
Top