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lol np
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Rosalina's power level is massively overestimated.
- Thread starter Randomtechguy142857
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- mario bros rosalina
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Okay. Am I too late? I wanna do what I was called to do. I'd like to thank Matt and Reppu for teaching me to do drop-the-mic debunk moments on forums ovo.
And I'd also like to say that I got nothing against the OP. Seems like a respectable guy. I'm just providing info that I was asked to. Apologies if I'm sounding mean af.
>Let's talk about Rosalina. Commonly considered to be one of the more powerful characters in the Mario canon, but having played through and 100%ed both Galaxy and Galaxy 2 multiple times, I argue that she is actually on the weaker end of the scale.
Given you address these later, I'll do the same and address them later, one by one.
>First up, Rosalina did NOT reset the universe. Looking at the ending cutscene of Super Mario Galaxy, it's quite clear that the galaxy's explosion was initiated by Bowser's Galaxy Reactor exploding . Rosalina did not even appear the scene until after the galaxy itself exploded and the Lumas all fell in. According to the Prima Guide, the only thing Rosalina did in that entire scene was that she shielded them from the blast. This speaks to her durability but says nothing about her own attack potency/strength.
Her striking strength is in a similar position. We don't see her strike anyone outside of sm4sh, so that's all we have to go off — superhuman, but not incredibly so.
Rosalina is overpowered by Bowser. TWICE.
That is to say, in the only two scenes that Rosalina actually interacts with someone in any manner that resembles combat, she loses. Not only that, she goes in both with a massive power advantage: in Galaxy 1 the situation is relatively unknown but we know that Rosalina had full control of the Comet Observatory, being powered by 7 mighty Grand Stars, and that Bowser was able to completely strip the Observatory of said power. In Galaxy 2 the situation is more clear, as we see it for ourselves: Despite Bowser only having control of one (two? The cutscene before the final battle isn't the clearest) Grand Stars to Rosalina's seven, Bowser uses the Galaxy Generator to completely dominate the Comet Observatory without even stripping it of its power. From this, there can be no doubt that Bowser's power level is orders of magnitude greater than Rosalina's.
And I'd also like to say that I got nothing against the OP. Seems like a respectable guy. I'm just providing info that I was asked to. Apologies if I'm sounding mean af.
>Let's talk about Rosalina. Commonly considered to be one of the more powerful characters in the Mario canon, but having played through and 100%ed both Galaxy and Galaxy 2 multiple times, I argue that she is actually on the weaker end of the scale.
- Firstly, let's start here. I'm gonna be restating this often. Even if Rosalina wasn't the strongest character (not counting TGP) without getting a power-up, there's no way she'd be on the weaker way on the scale when she's actually beat Bowser in SM3DW. And I'm only bringing that up here, as SM3DW is widely considered a massive inconsistency for her to be treated the same way as everyone else currently, is that if Rosalina was treated like everyone else, she'd be treated like those who scale there.
Given you address these later, I'll do the same and address them later, one by one.
>First up, Rosalina did NOT reset the universe. Looking at the ending cutscene of Super Mario Galaxy, it's quite clear that the galaxy's explosion was initiated by Bowser's Galaxy Reactor exploding . Rosalina did not even appear the scene until after the galaxy itself exploded and the Lumas all fell in. According to the Prima Guide, the only thing Rosalina did in that entire scene was that she shielded them from the blast. This speaks to her durability but says nothing about her own attack potency/strength.
- She resets it afterwards. Hence Mario waking up back on his homeworld, when the final battle took place faaaaaar away.
- You...literally provided why it's universal. Threat to the universe, and unlike someone like Frieza, the final black hole can't travel and act as a conquering emperor to make it be like that. Even then, universe resetting. And even if you were right and it wasn't universal+, it's still easily Multi-Galaxy, likely even Multi-Galaxy+. And to address your final point, literally none of the other black holes are a threat to the universe in the slightest.
- Furthermore, she said that, in layman's terms, that galaxies and Lumas go through a process of rebirth where not everything is the same, rather than the universe. And if that were the case, how would she know unless she experienced it before?
- The Lumas collapsed the black hole, which inadvertently caused the explosion, lest everything gets absorbed.
- No offense, but this point easily has the most things wrong about it. Did you even look at the calc for it? Firstly, the Comet Observatory being Sub-Rel, at most nonetheless, is absolute bs, as it goes to the center of the universe very quickly, and it casually traverses the universe constantly, and literally any timeframe that's not billions of years is well into MFTL. And most importantly, it's VASTLY superior to Starship Mario, which travels at that speed. Secondly, Rosalina is >>>>>>>> Bowser and Mario, who have reacted at these speeds, the latter having shot down Starship Mario, unboosted by the Grand Star nonetheless. Heck, even if she wasn't >>>>>>>>>>>> Bowser, she'd still be comparable enough to fight him, which would garner that speed.
- The Comet Observatory is very obviously powered by Power Stars and Grand Stars, not a Luma turned comet.
- Even if we used Sm4sh for feats for her (I'll get to that later), Normal Human is downright laughable as there's MHS+ feats for the characters in that franchise alone, without using their canon counterparts.
Her striking strength is in a similar position. We don't see her strike anyone outside of sm4sh, so that's all we have to go off — superhuman, but not incredibly so.
- I know people below already said so, but downplay for Smash, massive game mechanics, and non-canon (I mean, they're trophies lol). And again, if we did use Smash for feats, and scaled the Sm4sh characters to their canon feats the way you're implying we should do, she'd still be a tier 2 character anyway.
Rosalina is overpowered by Bowser. TWICE.
That is to say, in the only two scenes that Rosalina actually interacts with someone in any manner that resembles combat, she loses. Not only that, she goes in both with a massive power advantage: in Galaxy 1 the situation is relatively unknown but we know that Rosalina had full control of the Comet Observatory, being powered by 7 mighty Grand Stars, and that Bowser was able to completely strip the Observatory of said power. In Galaxy 2 the situation is more clear, as we see it for ourselves: Despite Bowser only having control of one (two? The cutscene before the final battle isn't the clearest) Grand Stars to Rosalina's seven, Bowser uses the Galaxy Generator to completely dominate the Comet Observatory without even stripping it of its power. From this, there can be no doubt that Bowser's power level is orders of magnitude greater than Rosalina's.
- Very, very, very false. Bowser's never even see Rosalina face-to-face in a SMG game, let alone fought her. He drains the ship. That's all. That's like saying if a grown man has his car's oil drained by a 10 year old, he's orders of magnitudes weaker than said child.
- The rest is either a conclusion, or you told us to ignore it, so I have no more points. But, yeah. I hope I provided the information you needed.
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Looks while Cals drop the mic.....dropped its own mic ovo
And of course im heavily disagreeing with this downgrade, especially for Cal's well detailed reasoning.
And of course im heavily disagreeing with this downgrade, especially for Cal's well detailed reasoning.
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- Thread starter
- #88
@The Real Cal Howard
First off, thank you so much for such an in-depth reply. I really want to give this comment the response that it deserves, but unfortunately I'll be unable to say any more than this for a couple of hours. Either way, I'm glad that this is getting attention and will definitely give a more proper response later.
First off, thank you so much for such an in-depth reply. I really want to give this comment the response that it deserves, but unfortunately I'll be unable to say any more than this for a couple of hours. Either way, I'm glad that this is getting attention and will definitely give a more proper response later.
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I can understand the confusion and proposal but apart from Teen Angel thankfully saving me the trouble by reposting my explaination and Cal already debunking a majority of this thread for me, this litterally makes her one of the weakest characters in the entire series, making her comparable to a Goomba or Koopa Troopa. For SMG2, the only reason Bowser overpowered her ship to begin with is because he has the Grand Stars at his disposal, which he stolen from her in the first place and are Low 2-C. Even Rosalina acknowledges it's power. On top of that, Bowser also absorbed several of them to boot and was even able to consumed the universe with it as seen in the climax of SMG2, not to mention it's destroyed the universe in the last game when his reactor powered by it exploded. Rosalina, being one of the notable users and creators of the said artifact, with effortless feat of tanking it while shielding Mario and Peach from the said destruction and warping it in two games a row clearly has enough evidence to back up her tier.
8-B just because of her playable appearances, which she's clearly nerfed in, is completely out of the question.
8-B just because of her playable appearances, which she's clearly nerfed in, is completely out of the question.
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It's clear as it is with the links and all. I really don't see the need for anymore more clarification.
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I kinda wanna give the dude a chance to reply. While I did...pull a Matt on this one and debunk hard, he's a nice enough guy and deserves to have the chance to speak his mind and either give a rebuttal or state his newfound agreement.
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I think we should wait and see if he has anything else to say....before doing so.
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Yeah, he seems new here. And he made this before he had a chance to understand the Tiering System. Let's wait for him to reply before we close it.
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- #99
Right, thanks for giving me a chance here.
>Even if Rosalina wasn't the strongest character (not counting TGP) without getting a power-up, there's no way she'd be on the weaker way on the scale when she's actually beat Bowser in SM3DW. And I'm only bringing that up here, as SM3DW is widely considered a massive inconsistency for her to be treated the same way as everyone else currently, is that if Rosalina was treated like everyone else, she'd be treated like those who scale there.
I'll admit I completely forgot about SM3DW. If we're treating that as canon, then given that that's the only place outside of SSB that she engages in single combat, I guess that needs to be the answer: her AP is equal to that of Mario & co. On the other hand, if we aren't using that as you guys don't seem to, then let's ignore it.
Clarifying edit: From here on out, I'm counting 3DW as non-canon.
>She resets it afterwards. Hence Mario waking up back on his homeworld, when the final battle took place faaaaaar away.
I really don't see how the one leads to the other. Everyone lands up back on Mario's homeworld, and I was always under the impression that that was because, in her words, "the cycle never repeats itself in the same way". As part of the changes to the cycle, everyone ends up on Mario's homeworld. No Rosalina necessary. If it were the case that sending everyone back to Mario's homeworld was Rosalina's doing, then nothing would have changed and Rosalina's above quote would have no meaning whatsoever.
You're going to have to explain to me how "Mario woke up back on his homeworld" somehow implies that "the galaxy resetting was Rosalina's doing". There's a mental leap in there that I'm missing completely. Rosalina even said that the galaxy's rebirth was a part of a natural cycle, which itself implies that Rosalina isn't involved.
>You...literally provided why it's universal. Threat to the universe... And to address your final point, literally none of the other black holes are a threat to the universe in the slightest.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. "Threat to the fabric of the universe" =/= "threat to the universe". And the black holes are exactly why.
A black hole-creating event is a greater power than a threat to the fabric of the universe — it goes beyond a "threat" and ruptures the fabric of the universe itself. If the galaxy reset was only a threat to the fabric of the universe, it must be weaker than any event that creates a black hole. And since "the other black holes aren't threats to the universe at large in the slightest", that means that the galaxy reset, which is necessarily even weaker, was nowhere near a threat to the universe as a whole either.
I suppose we can't really tell exactly whether it's something like Galaxy+ or Multi-Galaxy or whatever, but this definitely sets lower and upper bounds on the explosion: It destroyed and recreated the galaxy, so it's at least Galaxy level, and it must be much less than a threat to the universe, so it's at most Multi-Galaxy+.
>Galaxies and Lumas go through a process of rebirth where not everything is the same, rather than the universe. And if that were the case, how would she know unless she experienced it before?
You seem to have forgotten that Rosalina literally lives on an observatory, a building with the specific intention of observing astronomical/cosmological events from far away. She would have, in her thousands of years, seen the process happen before to other galaxies. And that "process of rebirth where not everything is the same" is, as far as I can tell, EXACTLY what happened at the end of SMG. The galaxy was destroyed, with the collapse of Bowser's Galaxy Reactor being the catalyst, and due to the natural cycle it was reborn. Again, it is unclear exactly what the scale of the explosion was, but like you/she said, it's not a universal process of rebirth, it's a galactic one.
The Lumas collapsed the black hole, which inadvertently caused the explosion, lest everything gets absorbed.
I'm going to need an official source for that one. What the Lumas were doing is vague at best. I was always under the impression that they were doing something to lessen the destructive force of the galaxy resetting. If you show me where you got that information, I'll believe you.
>The Comet Observatory being Sub-Rel, at most nonetheless, is absolute bs, as it goes to the center of the universe very quickly, and it casually traverses the universe constantly, and literally any timeframe that's not billions of years is well into MFTL.
We don't see it going to the centre of the universe in real time. When you look at https://youtu.be/MhCZ0uAkreY?t=5m47s (which is the only time you get to see it move in SMG), it travels at a speed that's visibly nowhere near relativistic, and continues going at that speed until the next shot where it goes through the Airship Armada.
There are 2 possibilities. One is that the 'centre of the universe' was actually pretty close by, which is very plausible as we can literally see it when the Observatory starts moving. The other is that actually a very long time passed between one shot and the next, during which time the Observatory accelerated to unknown speed, traversed the distance, and decelerated once it approached Peach's castle. "Traversing the universe" implies nothing since we're not given a timeframe. If the 2nd is correct, then yeah, the Observatory can travel at whatever arbitrarily high speed it takes to get to the centre of the universe in a timeframe which is, once again, unspecified, off camera (which really could be anything, since we know neither the distance nor the time). Otherwise, the Observatory never appears to travel at anything approaching relativistic.
>It's VASTLY superior to Starship Mario, which travels at that speed.
Sorry, where are you getting that from? I don't remember that at all. The only time they're seen in the same frame is the end of SMG2, and Starship Mario isn't moving then.
>Rosalina is >>> Bowser and Mario
Again, I don't remember where you're getting that from. Whenever she moves unassisted, she seems to only ever do so at a walking pace. I don't remember any point (outside of SM3DW and SSB) at which her speed can be compared with Bowser's, and she never moves faster than Mario does on-screen.
>The Comet Observatory is very obviously powered by Power Stars and Grand Stars, not a Luma turned comet.
This is off-topic, but yes, it's powered by the Power/Grand Stars AND a Luma turned comet, as we see in the storybook. But that's irrelevant.
>Even if we used Sm4sh for feats for her…
Like I said, the only reason I'm including SSB is because it's the only time you see her engaging in combat outside of SM3DW. If we're not counting that as canon, let's drop the topic. But that leaves the questions of AP, striking and lifting strengths completely unanswered, with the Universe+ rankings unjustified.
>Very, very, very false. Bowser's never even seen Rosalina face-to-face in a SMG game, let alone fought her. He drains the ship. That's all. That's like saying if a grown man has his car's oil drained by a 10 year old, he's orders of magnitudes weaker than said child.
I understand the simile, but would like to emphasise that in SMG2 Bowser does not drain the ship. He faces it head-on, at full power, with only one Grand Star to Rosalina's seven, and comes out on top.
Of course, we can't use this as a proper example of direct combat for the reason you gave, and in any other circumstance I would ignore it. But like I said above, outside of SSB and SM3DW, these are the only two times we see Rosalina in confrontation with anybody else. So I fear that as far as AP goes, we're forced to either use this or resort to circumstantial evidence.
I can tell that you all are very eager to close the thread, but I fear that this matter isn't the type to be resolved in only 4 comments. I understand if this isn't the correct place to be discussing it, but if so, I would very much like to continue this conversation elsewhere, until we both agree on something.
>Even if Rosalina wasn't the strongest character (not counting TGP) without getting a power-up, there's no way she'd be on the weaker way on the scale when she's actually beat Bowser in SM3DW. And I'm only bringing that up here, as SM3DW is widely considered a massive inconsistency for her to be treated the same way as everyone else currently, is that if Rosalina was treated like everyone else, she'd be treated like those who scale there.
I'll admit I completely forgot about SM3DW. If we're treating that as canon, then given that that's the only place outside of SSB that she engages in single combat, I guess that needs to be the answer: her AP is equal to that of Mario & co. On the other hand, if we aren't using that as you guys don't seem to, then let's ignore it.
Clarifying edit: From here on out, I'm counting 3DW as non-canon.
>She resets it afterwards. Hence Mario waking up back on his homeworld, when the final battle took place faaaaaar away.
I really don't see how the one leads to the other. Everyone lands up back on Mario's homeworld, and I was always under the impression that that was because, in her words, "the cycle never repeats itself in the same way". As part of the changes to the cycle, everyone ends up on Mario's homeworld. No Rosalina necessary. If it were the case that sending everyone back to Mario's homeworld was Rosalina's doing, then nothing would have changed and Rosalina's above quote would have no meaning whatsoever.
You're going to have to explain to me how "Mario woke up back on his homeworld" somehow implies that "the galaxy resetting was Rosalina's doing". There's a mental leap in there that I'm missing completely. Rosalina even said that the galaxy's rebirth was a part of a natural cycle, which itself implies that Rosalina isn't involved.
>You...literally provided why it's universal. Threat to the universe... And to address your final point, literally none of the other black holes are a threat to the universe in the slightest.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. "Threat to the fabric of the universe" =/= "threat to the universe". And the black holes are exactly why.
A black hole-creating event is a greater power than a threat to the fabric of the universe — it goes beyond a "threat" and ruptures the fabric of the universe itself. If the galaxy reset was only a threat to the fabric of the universe, it must be weaker than any event that creates a black hole. And since "the other black holes aren't threats to the universe at large in the slightest", that means that the galaxy reset, which is necessarily even weaker, was nowhere near a threat to the universe as a whole either.
I suppose we can't really tell exactly whether it's something like Galaxy+ or Multi-Galaxy or whatever, but this definitely sets lower and upper bounds on the explosion: It destroyed and recreated the galaxy, so it's at least Galaxy level, and it must be much less than a threat to the universe, so it's at most Multi-Galaxy+.
>Galaxies and Lumas go through a process of rebirth where not everything is the same, rather than the universe. And if that were the case, how would she know unless she experienced it before?
You seem to have forgotten that Rosalina literally lives on an observatory, a building with the specific intention of observing astronomical/cosmological events from far away. She would have, in her thousands of years, seen the process happen before to other galaxies. And that "process of rebirth where not everything is the same" is, as far as I can tell, EXACTLY what happened at the end of SMG. The galaxy was destroyed, with the collapse of Bowser's Galaxy Reactor being the catalyst, and due to the natural cycle it was reborn. Again, it is unclear exactly what the scale of the explosion was, but like you/she said, it's not a universal process of rebirth, it's a galactic one.
The Lumas collapsed the black hole, which inadvertently caused the explosion, lest everything gets absorbed.
I'm going to need an official source for that one. What the Lumas were doing is vague at best. I was always under the impression that they were doing something to lessen the destructive force of the galaxy resetting. If you show me where you got that information, I'll believe you.
>The Comet Observatory being Sub-Rel, at most nonetheless, is absolute bs, as it goes to the center of the universe very quickly, and it casually traverses the universe constantly, and literally any timeframe that's not billions of years is well into MFTL.
We don't see it going to the centre of the universe in real time. When you look at https://youtu.be/MhCZ0uAkreY?t=5m47s (which is the only time you get to see it move in SMG), it travels at a speed that's visibly nowhere near relativistic, and continues going at that speed until the next shot where it goes through the Airship Armada.
There are 2 possibilities. One is that the 'centre of the universe' was actually pretty close by, which is very plausible as we can literally see it when the Observatory starts moving. The other is that actually a very long time passed between one shot and the next, during which time the Observatory accelerated to unknown speed, traversed the distance, and decelerated once it approached Peach's castle. "Traversing the universe" implies nothing since we're not given a timeframe. If the 2nd is correct, then yeah, the Observatory can travel at whatever arbitrarily high speed it takes to get to the centre of the universe in a timeframe which is, once again, unspecified, off camera (which really could be anything, since we know neither the distance nor the time). Otherwise, the Observatory never appears to travel at anything approaching relativistic.
>It's VASTLY superior to Starship Mario, which travels at that speed.
Sorry, where are you getting that from? I don't remember that at all. The only time they're seen in the same frame is the end of SMG2, and Starship Mario isn't moving then.
>Rosalina is >>> Bowser and Mario
Again, I don't remember where you're getting that from. Whenever she moves unassisted, she seems to only ever do so at a walking pace. I don't remember any point (outside of SM3DW and SSB) at which her speed can be compared with Bowser's, and she never moves faster than Mario does on-screen.
>The Comet Observatory is very obviously powered by Power Stars and Grand Stars, not a Luma turned comet.
This is off-topic, but yes, it's powered by the Power/Grand Stars AND a Luma turned comet, as we see in the storybook. But that's irrelevant.
>Even if we used Sm4sh for feats for her…
Like I said, the only reason I'm including SSB is because it's the only time you see her engaging in combat outside of SM3DW. If we're not counting that as canon, let's drop the topic. But that leaves the questions of AP, striking and lifting strengths completely unanswered, with the Universe+ rankings unjustified.
>Very, very, very false. Bowser's never even seen Rosalina face-to-face in a SMG game, let alone fought her. He drains the ship. That's all. That's like saying if a grown man has his car's oil drained by a 10 year old, he's orders of magnitudes weaker than said child.
I understand the simile, but would like to emphasise that in SMG2 Bowser does not drain the ship. He faces it head-on, at full power, with only one Grand Star to Rosalina's seven, and comes out on top.
Of course, we can't use this as a proper example of direct combat for the reason you gave, and in any other circumstance I would ignore it. But like I said above, outside of SSB and SM3DW, these are the only two times we see Rosalina in confrontation with anybody else. So I fear that as far as AP goes, we're forced to either use this or resort to circumstantial evidence.
I can tell that you all are very eager to close the thread, but I fear that this matter isn't the type to be resolved in only 4 comments. I understand if this isn't the correct place to be discussing it, but if so, I would very much like to continue this conversation elsewhere, until we both agree on something.
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You do realize even if we assumed the Observatory travelled there in 10 billion years (which I guess every Mario character is now immortal and Bowser had insane patience to wait that long before initiating his plan) it'd still be FTL right?Randomtechguy142857 said:
Of course they aren't going to "look" that fast because the audience needs to actually be able to see what's going on. By this logic pretty much no character in any anime is consistently subsonic or above since the audience can watch their fight scenes.
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Okay I'll lowball this feat as much as humanly possible. Let's assume that the Comet Observatory was only 1 galaxy away from the center of the universe. The fact that the ship can casually sail to other galaxies (which already proves its FTL) yet views travelling to Bowser to be a long journey would prove that at bare minimum to be the case.
Now let's assume that everyone in Mario is immortal and for whatever reason Bowser wanted to wait eons before initiating his plan so he and Peach stood there for ages doing nothing. 90 thousand years to get there.
This is still FTL. You can't assume any distance or timeframe that'd make this feat not FTL, besides going into some immensely absurd lowballs.
Now let's assume that everyone in Mario is immortal and for whatever reason Bowser wanted to wait eons before initiating his plan so he and Peach stood there for ages doing nothing. 90 thousand years to get there.
This is still FTL. You can't assume any distance or timeframe that'd make this feat not FTL, besides going into some immensely absurd lowballs.
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The image of Bowser walking around doing his business for 90,000 years waiting for them is pretty great.
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Just because someone has not engaged in direct combat, does not mean we have to disregard a feat that actually happened. By that logic, Zeno isn't Universal+ as a result. We have already explained there are more evidence that supports the ratings than what you are against.
Rosalina's quote about the cycle is simply an explaination of how Lumas are reborn and that they never really perish. On top of that, she only saved Mario and Peach. Everyone else in the Mushroom Kingdom is simply happy with no recollection of what happened because they were resetted with the universe as well.
Rosalina's quote about the cycle is simply an explaination of how Lumas are reborn and that they never really perish. On top of that, she only saved Mario and Peach. Everyone else in the Mushroom Kingdom is simply happy with no recollection of what happened because they were resetted with the universe as well.
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And the Grand Star with the blast and black hole that comes with it is clearly capable of destroying and recreating the universe. It was even confirmed in the same Prima Guide.
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Scary thing is, given his infinite resurrection...he pretty much has that...
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Especially with regards to speed, I feel like there are some implicit assumptions we're all making differently. Are the things called "galaxies" in SMG equivalent to real galaxies in our universe, and should they be regarded as such when defining the galactic scale? I've always thought of them as on the scale of planets at the absolute biggest. What's the largest so-called "galaxy" in SMG1&2? Size-wise, it could almost certainly still be contained within the Earth. The smallest would fit within a large building.
So when the Observatory moves from "galaxy" to "galaxy", I've always considered it to be more on the scale of planet-hopping. That would mean, say, an event which destroys a SMG "galaxy" would really only be really between Moon class and Star class, nowhere near the actual Galaxy class.
This has some pretty serious implications. It would bring Ryukama's serious lowball of 1 galaxy away from hundreds of thousands of light-years down to a couple of light seconds, and would make a journey of a week at the speed of light be able to traverse thousands of galaxies. Then, it's completely plausible to assume that the Comet Observatory, traveling at sub-relativistic speeds, traverses many galaxies to the centre of the universe in a completely reasonable timeframe.
It would also make events that happen on the scale of many "galaxies" solar system-level or multi-solar system-level. This would have the effect of cutting down the power level of pretty much every event we're talking about by a few factors.
Alternatively, we could take SMG's usage of "galaxy" at face value, as you all seem to be doing, which would then mean that, yes, the Comet Observatory travels at MFTL+ if it wants to traverse the distance of a galaxy IRL in reasonable time. But that has some weird implications and can easily lead to conversion errors. The in-game "galaxies", which only appear to be on the scale of metres to kilometres, would really be hundreds of thousands of light years in size.
I feel that this is something we definitely need to clear up, because I fear it's leading to miscommunication.
So when the Observatory moves from "galaxy" to "galaxy", I've always considered it to be more on the scale of planet-hopping. That would mean, say, an event which destroys a SMG "galaxy" would really only be really between Moon class and Star class, nowhere near the actual Galaxy class.
This has some pretty serious implications. It would bring Ryukama's serious lowball of 1 galaxy away from hundreds of thousands of light-years down to a couple of light seconds, and would make a journey of a week at the speed of light be able to traverse thousands of galaxies. Then, it's completely plausible to assume that the Comet Observatory, traveling at sub-relativistic speeds, traverses many galaxies to the centre of the universe in a completely reasonable timeframe.
It would also make events that happen on the scale of many "galaxies" solar system-level or multi-solar system-level. This would have the effect of cutting down the power level of pretty much every event we're talking about by a few factors.
Alternatively, we could take SMG's usage of "galaxy" at face value, as you all seem to be doing, which would then mean that, yes, the Comet Observatory travels at MFTL+ if it wants to traverse the distance of a galaxy IRL in reasonable time. But that has some weird implications and can easily lead to conversion errors. The in-game "galaxies", which only appear to be on the scale of metres to kilometres, would really be hundreds of thousands of light years in size.
I feel that this is something we definitely need to clear up, because I fear it's leading to miscommunication.
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I'm pretty sure several Galaxies in the Galaxy games are actual Galaxies and them looking that small could easily just be game limations like for example the Galaxies seen in world 5 and 6 in Galaxy 2 look exactly like real life Galaxies do so I don't see think what your saying is reasonable to assume
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It's been cleared up years ago when threads about SMG1 and SMG2 are made. You are just bringing up the issues all over again. It's been established that the galaxies Mario travels into and the verse has in general are actual-sized galaxies and Nintendo is fully aware what an actual galaxy looks like even before SMG existed.
https://www.mariowiki.com/World_5_(Super_Mario_Galaxy_2)
And Ryu is only using a lowball in order to explain that regardless of the distance btw Starship Mario and the Comet Observatory from the center of the universe is, it's still FTL. And this is a ludicrous lowball as well. This isn't a case of miscommunication, you just don't understand the context despite not being all that difficult to understand.
https://www.mariowiki.com/World_5_(Super_Mario_Galaxy_2)
And Ryu is only using a lowball in order to explain that regardless of the distance btw Starship Mario and the Comet Observatory from the center of the universe is, it's still FTL. And this is a ludicrous lowball as well. This isn't a case of miscommunication, you just don't understand the context despite not being all that difficult to understand.
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@Dino Ranger Black
>Rosalina's quote about the cycle is simply an explaination of how Lumas are reborn and that they never really perish. On top of that, she only saved Mario and Peach. Everyone else in the Mushroom Kingdom is simply happy with no recollection of what happened because they were resetted with the universe as well.
I'll believe that last point there when I see it. Is that in the Prima guide as well? If so, please link an image here.
>[prima guide image]
Alright, fair enough. Taking the usage of "universe" at face value, and ignoring any effect the Lumas had, I concede that the explosion was universe-scale. (If, as I mentioned above, the scale of the lables SMG uses is not the same as that which we use, then it would likely be less great, but I'm much more willing to take its usage of 'universe' at face-value than its usage of 'galaxy'.)
>Just because someone has not engaged in direct combat, does not mean we have to disregard a feat that actually happened. By that logic, Zeno isn't Universal+ as a result. We have already explained there are more evidence that supports the ratings than what you are against.
With regards to the striking strength, lifting strength and attack potency, is there any evidence that I haven't covered? (It's a big thread and I might have missed something you said.) As far as I can tell, aside from the whole galaxy-reset business that we're still discussing, Rosalina never displays any feats of universe+ AP, striking or lifting strength. Please tell me what I'm missing.
>Rosalina's quote about the cycle is simply an explaination of how Lumas are reborn and that they never really perish. On top of that, she only saved Mario and Peach. Everyone else in the Mushroom Kingdom is simply happy with no recollection of what happened because they were resetted with the universe as well.
I'll believe that last point there when I see it. Is that in the Prima guide as well? If so, please link an image here.
>[prima guide image]
Alright, fair enough. Taking the usage of "universe" at face value, and ignoring any effect the Lumas had, I concede that the explosion was universe-scale. (If, as I mentioned above, the scale of the lables SMG uses is not the same as that which we use, then it would likely be less great, but I'm much more willing to take its usage of 'universe' at face-value than its usage of 'galaxy'.)
>Just because someone has not engaged in direct combat, does not mean we have to disregard a feat that actually happened. By that logic, Zeno isn't Universal+ as a result. We have already explained there are more evidence that supports the ratings than what you are against.
With regards to the striking strength, lifting strength and attack potency, is there any evidence that I haven't covered? (It's a big thread and I might have missed something you said.) As far as I can tell, aside from the whole galaxy-reset business that we're still discussing, Rosalina never displays any feats of universe+ AP, striking or lifting strength. Please tell me what I'm missing.
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I just pointed it out that only Mario and Peach were protected from the blast by Rosalina. Logically, everyone else perished from the destruction. You don't even need the Prima Guide to directly say it. It simple common sense....unless you are telling me that Toads have Universe level durability.
It's a Universal-reseting feat, not a Galaxy-level one. And we all did explained it. Heck, Teen Angel even posted an image of a thread explaining it. If it's too difficult to read, I'll link you. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/461887
It's a Universal-reseting feat, not a Galaxy-level one. And we all did explained it. Heck, Teen Angel even posted an image of a thread explaining it. If it's too difficult to read, I'll link you. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/461887
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I didn't come here to argue or anything. I just came here to post this image, which is a higher quality version of the image that DRB posted - in case you can't read it.
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>It's been cleared up years ago when threads about SMG1 and SMG2 are made. You are just bringing up the issues all over again. It's been established that the galaxies Mario travels into and the verse has in general are actual-sized galaxies and Nintendo is fully aware what an actual galaxy looks like even before SMG existed.
At risk of sounding like an arse, I apologise for not having read every thread ever posted on this wiki. If you could link me to the threads where this issue is settled, that would be great.
The reason I ask this is actually exactly because of world 5. In it, we see the background of a whole host of galaxies — actual galaxies. These are very clearly different from the 'galaxies' Mario visits. The mere fact that images of actual galaxies appear in the background of the world map does not prove that the two concepts used are one and the same; in fact, it is evidence against it. Because the galaxies in the background and the 'galaxies' Mario visits are so very different, it surely means that the game's usage of 'galaxy' differs from our usage, doesn't it?
(I'm not trying to say that Nintendo doesn't know what galaxies look like, anyone who has google knows that. I'm trying to say that they used "galaxy" in a different sense.)
If we're using world backgrounds for evidence of scale, the World 1 background is the atmosphere of a planet, and the World 2 background is within a solar system. According to what you're arguing with the 'galaxies' being actual-sized, this means that 7 actual-sized galaxies fit into the atmosphere of one planet, or into a single solar system. Is that really what you're trying to say? Because that seems like a contradiction to me.
My point is that, if SMG "galaxies" are much smaller than actual galaxies, we don't even need Ryu's lowball to traverse many galaxies at sub-relativistic speeds in a perfectly reasonable amount of time.
>I just pointed it out that only Mario and Peach were protected from the blast by Rosalina. Logically, everyone else perished from the destruction. You don't even need the Prima Guide to directly say it. It simple common sense....unless you are telling me that Toads have Universe level durability.
...how do you know? The entire scene is remarkably unclear. It never says that "only Mario and Peach were protected from the blast", it only specifies that they were. True, we don't see anyone else in the Birth scene, but we don't see Peach there either. There's nothing in the game or the Prima Guide that suggests the others weren't protected either. Even Bowser could've been protected; he took the brunt of the first hit but everyone ended up in the same place once the black hole sucked everything in.
At risk of sounding like an arse, I apologise for not having read every thread ever posted on this wiki. If you could link me to the threads where this issue is settled, that would be great.
The reason I ask this is actually exactly because of world 5. In it, we see the background of a whole host of galaxies — actual galaxies. These are very clearly different from the 'galaxies' Mario visits. The mere fact that images of actual galaxies appear in the background of the world map does not prove that the two concepts used are one and the same; in fact, it is evidence against it. Because the galaxies in the background and the 'galaxies' Mario visits are so very different, it surely means that the game's usage of 'galaxy' differs from our usage, doesn't it?
(I'm not trying to say that Nintendo doesn't know what galaxies look like, anyone who has google knows that. I'm trying to say that they used "galaxy" in a different sense.)
If we're using world backgrounds for evidence of scale, the World 1 background is the atmosphere of a planet, and the World 2 background is within a solar system. According to what you're arguing with the 'galaxies' being actual-sized, this means that 7 actual-sized galaxies fit into the atmosphere of one planet, or into a single solar system. Is that really what you're trying to say? Because that seems like a contradiction to me.
My point is that, if SMG "galaxies" are much smaller than actual galaxies, we don't even need Ryu's lowball to traverse many galaxies at sub-relativistic speeds in a perfectly reasonable amount of time.
>I just pointed it out that only Mario and Peach were protected from the blast by Rosalina. Logically, everyone else perished from the destruction. You don't even need the Prima Guide to directly say it. It simple common sense....unless you are telling me that Toads have Universe level durability.
...how do you know? The entire scene is remarkably unclear. It never says that "only Mario and Peach were protected from the blast", it only specifies that they were. True, we don't see anyone else in the Birth scene, but we don't see Peach there either. There's nothing in the game or the Prima Guide that suggests the others weren't protected either. Even Bowser could've been protected; he took the brunt of the first hit but everyone ended up in the same place once the black hole sucked everything in.
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Sorry but that's only a problem from a personal perspective, not a logical one. The World 5 and Mario Party 3 doesn't even work against it in the slightest since it confirms that the galaxies in Mario's world are indeed actual sized. If anything, it only works against you since the main point of this arugument is that you believe that that galaxies in Mario's verse are a whole lot smaller like a solar system for some reason. World 1 and 2 doesn't even work against it since you can still see (a) galaxy or stars within the background of the levels of these worlds. This arguement is redudant since it's been proven.
"The scene is remarkably unclear." Incorrect. It's completely clear, particularly thanks to the Prima Guide's description of the event. You are being focused on such irrelevant details that's honestly, not hard to dismiss. Bowser was clearly stated to be left behind in the catastrophic event, so he's clearly isn't protected. We clearly see new species or life within every new galaxy created . In order words, they are indeed reborn. You are a nice enough but I'm getting tired over such an argument over irrelevant details. I'm closing this thread since this is getting unnecessary long over such and the matter being resolved years ago.
"The scene is remarkably unclear." Incorrect. It's completely clear, particularly thanks to the Prima Guide's description of the event. You are being focused on such irrelevant details that's honestly, not hard to dismiss. Bowser was clearly stated to be left behind in the catastrophic event, so he's clearly isn't protected. We clearly see new species or life within every new galaxy created . In order words, they are indeed reborn. You are a nice enough but I'm getting tired over such an argument over irrelevant details. I'm closing this thread since this is getting unnecessary long over such and the matter being resolved years ago.
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