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Rock Lee vs Deku

CiscoTheSoto said:
Regardless of whether or not they had Quirks which were effective against Deku, it doesn’t change the fact they were able to deal him serious damage. It’s not like they were some special techniques that did internal damage or anything. Mirio’s simple punch to the gut was able to wind Deku and knock him down for several seconds. Nine was also able to injure Deku and make him bleed when just a few lasers hit him on the shoulder

When they go close combat, which is one of Deku’s starting tactics, Lee will definitely get past Deku’s guard and hit him with a Leaf Hurricane. Against stronger opponents like Sasuke and Naruto, his attacks were able to wind them for several seconds, so Deku’s gonna be even worse off. Lee’s gonna take advantage of that moment and land several more attacks. By the time that Deku manages to start analyzing Lee’s movements, he’ll already be too worn out, and he can’t increase his OFA percentage like he often does in his big fights.
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If the only example you have is Mirio, you’re out of luck. Mirio hit a specific part of the body that stunned him, it wasn’t because he dealt massive damage to him. 8% and Mirio are comparable in AP but Mirio hit essentially a pressure point that instantly stunned him heavily, that wasn’t a matter of stamina. Mirio would be 8-B otherwise, trust me, I WISH it was a one shot.

Nine’s attacks are LASERS. Of course they’re going to draw blood, they’re piercing attacks that go through people. And that was against base Deku as well, so that’s not even a good argument.

Deku didn’t amp vs Gentle and he didn’t amp vs Nine in the second fight where he ACTUALLY took a massive beating from him in 8% for several minutes. The only fights where Deku amped were against Nine in the first round, for a split second, and against Overhaul.

I cannot stress how much you are completely ignoring Gentle Criminal. He amped to be stronger than Deku and then amped even further and was landing several hits on him consistently for minutes and Deku just tanked them all. He then predicted Gentle, who was faster than him, and defeated him, then still ran around the city to get his groceries and perform in the band and go around with Eri, NO REST after his fight. Against someone STRONGER than him, with no 20% amp, he took attacks for (went back to check) 10-15 minutes straight and needed no rest at all before having fun for the rest of the day with his friends.

You bring up a moment where Mirio hit essentially a pressure point and Base Deku vs Nine for instances of Deku’s stamina? But not actual 8% Deku vs Nine and Gentle? I don’t see how this is aiding your stance when it’s just plain wrong.
 
If you want Mirio punching Deku in a weak spot of the human body to be about Mirio’s strength rather than a pressure point maneuver, I invite you to talk to the rest of the supporters of MHA about our scaling chain, because that is one of the most commonly known things about Mirio in that instant of beating Class 1-A
 
Deku was being beaten rather heavily by Muscular in their battle and was overwhelmed by his superior strength and speed. Hell, Muscular could break his arm with a single punch, and if Lee hits hard enough, he could do the same thing since the AP gap is comparable to the gap between 5% Deku and base Muscular. That’s an instance of him being incapable of holding his own against a stronger opponent without increasing OFA. Even if he didn’t have the same level of analytical prediction, he was still rather experienced and had fought several villains before. And this was against a fighter with no real fighting style. How about against an expert martial artist who could get past Sasuke’s guard and outmatch him in taijutsu? I do not see how Deku could pull out a win against a stronger, more skilled opponent in close combat with incredible stamina and who could dodge all his Air Force attacks easily to close the distance and land powerful strikes.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Deku was being beaten rather heavily by Muscular in their battle and was overwhelmed by his superior strength and speed. Hell, Muscular could break his arm with a single punch, and if Lee hits hard enough, he could do the same thing since the AP gap is comparable to the gap between 5% Deku and base Muscular. That’s an instance of him being incapable of holding his own against a stronger opponent without increasing OFA. Even if he didn’t have the same level of analytical prediction, he was still rather experienced and had fought several villains before. And this was against a fighter with no real fighting style. How about against an expert martial artist who could get past Sasuke’s guard and outmatch him in taijutsu? I do not see how Deku could pull out a win against a stronger, more skilled opponent in close combat with incredible stamina and who could dodge all his Air Force attacks easily to close the distance and land powerful strikes.
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Bro you’re bringing up MUSCULAR????

You understand he’s High 8-C+ not because he’s definitively there, but BECAUSE he could break Deku’s arm in one shot right? That’s a result of the wiki not wanting to scale him any higher as well as limitations on upscaling in general, it’s common sense.

Muscular could be 2x stronger than 5% Deku, he could be 3x stronger, he could be 6x stronger, High 8-C+ is just how high he’s allowed to definitively go for his feat of breaking Deku’s arm in that instance. Using that as “definitive evidence” that Rock Lee can do the same to deku with a 2x stat difference is absolutely wild.

The difference between Muscular and Deku, by wiki standards, is 1.28x (5.13 vs 6.5). You’re claiming a 1.28x difference is enough to break Deku’s arm completely and severely injure him, and thus all fights with him should use 1.28x as a baseline for breaking his arm. This is ridiculous and faulty logic.

Also, YOU ARE USING 8% DEKU. WHY ARE YOU BRINING UP MUSCULAR WHEN YOU YOURSELF ADMIT THAT IS A WEAKER KEY? AND THAT HE WAS FATIGUED FROM TRAINING? AND THAT HE GOT STRONGER MONTHS AFTER THAT FIGHT???? What is the purpose of Muscular at all in this conversation.

He wins BECAUSE OF THE REASONS YOU’RE SAYING TO IGNORE. He is vastly superior in stamina than before, his pain tolerance has immensely improved, his analytical prediction has become FAR better, and he has ACTUAL STAMINA FEATS AGAINST PEOPLE STRONGER THAN HIM that prove he can withstand beatings for MANY MINUTES.

Bringing up a weaker key that is MONTHS behind in power, stamina and intelligence, on top of that key being FATIGUED, is baffling to me.
 
->Admits that Muscular is far faster and stronger than 5% Deku and that his analytical prediction was practically nonexistent at that point

->Says he couldn’t keep up with Muscular so how can he keep up with Rock Lee in speed equal in his far smarter and better key

Like, are you even understanding your own argument?
 
Whew, I was heated 2 weeks ago, must have been a bad day, way too aggressive.

But yeah, my arguments stand. It’s prediction, intelligence and range vs fighting skill and AP advantage. Deku inevitably realizes that all Rock Lee can do is taijutsu, begins predicting his movements and blasts him back with Air Force and his kicks.

Rock Lee’s best shot at winning is beating Deku before he begins predicting him, which is incredibly difficult considering Deku’s stamina and that he can begin predicting movements in mere seconds of fighting someone, and that they get better overtime that he can predict people he thought were impossible to predict just moments before.

So ye, Deku smacks him up after he gets his groove.
 
Hm. I've finished Naruto and have read the whole of Part I three times in total, and I've watched/read that arc of mha and beyond. I think I know enough to have a reasonable contribution.

Out of time I can't go over all 85 replies, but based off the posted stats it seems like Rock Lee has a clear speed and AP advantage, so he's got that going for him. Deku, of course, has managed to beat opponents far above his weight class, but this almost entirely due to plot boons (muscular, gentle criminal technically) or outside help (Overhaul, Stain). Deku has his analytical prediction skills, but he was only able to do this once versus Mirio, who (a) isn't quite as fast as Rock Lee, being Mach 21 versus Mach 29 and (b) was certainly not going all-out versus a bunch of 15-year-olds that he could kill with a single hit. Since he doesn't display this ability in the manga much at all, it's reasonable to assume he's not doing it much at all against a noticeably faster opponent, either. You could say that he only predicted it due to the nature of Mirio's quirk and all but that's a lot of speculation.

Another massive boon that Rock Lee has on his side is training. It's good to remind you that barely a year has passed since Deku entered U.A., and that is how long Deku has had to train his martial arts skills (the time spent with All Might was simply muscle-building) and that doesn't count the fact that most of it was simple schoolwork. Rock Lee, on the other hand, has trained relentlessly to be a killer assassin since he was 6-8 years old (the exact age shinobi start training isn't certain) and has been focusing on nothing but his taijutsu the entire time. Count in the fact that he was so disciplined that he managed to learn the Eight Gates, a forbidden technique that most jonin aren't shown being able to learn, and the gap between the two of them in terms of training and experience becomes kind of gigantic.

This isn't to say that Deku has no experience whatsoever, but he would get out-skilled by Rock Lee very, very badly, especially in CQC combat. That in combination with his superior stats all-around is enough for him to have a very confident victory. I'm gonna vote for Rock Lee.
 
Ayewale said:
Deku, of course, has managed to beat opponents far above his weight class, but this almost entirely due to plot boons (muscular, gentle criminal technically) or outside help (Overhaul, Stain).
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How is him defeating Muscular and Gentle Criminal "plot boons"?
Ayewale said:
Deku has his analytical prediction skills, but he was only able to do this once versus Mirio
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He literally predicted Gentle Criminal. The only reason his attack didn't land is due to it getting reflected.
 
GoGoPowerRanger said:
How is him defeating Muscular and Gentle Criminal "plot boons"?

He literally predicted Gentle Criminal. The only reason his attack didn't land is due to it getting reflected.
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Discussing whether something is contrived or not is personal opinion so I'm not gonna clog the thread with that here. Also I don't have every chapter of the manga memorized, so you should probably post a scan of what you're talking about.

(Although just based off what you said, if Gentle Criminal, a character of equal speed, could react to his prediction then Rock Lee absolutely would lol)
 
Ayewale said:
Also I don't have every chapter of the manga memorized, so you should probably post a scan of what you're talking about.
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I don't really need to post a scan. He defeated Muscular via increasing his power past 100%. As for Gentle, Midoriya simply knocked him out with a St. Louis Smash. There was no plot device.
Ayewale said:
(Although just based off what you said, if Gentle Criminal, a character of equal speed, could react to his prediction then Rock Lee absolutely would lol)
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Except he didn't. His Quirk allows him to elastic platform from anything he touches, including air. And when Deku tried to shoot Gentle, his bullet was reflected off of a platform.
 
Ayewale said:
Hm. I've finished Naruto and have read the whole of Part I three times in total, and I've watched/read that arc of mha and beyond. I think I know enough to have a reasonable contribution.

Out of time I can't go over all 85 replies, but based off the posted stats it seems like Rock Lee has a clear speed and AP advantage, so he's got that going for him. Deku, of course, has managed to beat opponents far above his weight class, but this almost entirely due to plot boons (muscular, gentle criminal technically) or outside help (Overhaul, Stain). Deku has his analytical prediction skills, but he was only able to do this once versus Mirio, who (a) isn't quite as fast as Rock Lee, being Mach 21 versus Mach 29 and (b) was certainly not going all-out versus a bunch of 15-year-olds that he could kill with a single hit. Since he doesn't display this ability in the manga much at all, it's reasonable to assume he's not doing it much at all against a noticeably faster opponent, either. You could say that he only predicted it due to the nature of Mirio's quirk and all but that's a lot of speculation.

Another massive boon that Rock Lee has on his side is training. It's good to remind you that barely a year has passed since Deku entered U.A., and that is how long Deku has had to train his martial arts skills (the time spent with All Might was simply muscle-building) and that doesn't count the fact that most of it was simple schoolwork. Rock Lee, on the other hand, has trained relentlessly to be a killer assassin since he was 6-8 years old (the exact age shinobi start training isn't certain) and has been focusing on nothing but his taijutsu the entire time. Count in the fact that he was so disciplined that he managed to learn the Eight Gates, a forbidden technique that most jonin aren't shown being able to learn, and the gap between the two of them in terms of training and experience becomes kind of gigantic.

This isn't to say that Deku has no experience whatsoever, but he would get out-skilled by Rock Lee very, very badly, especially in CQC combat. That in combination with his superior stats all-around is enough for him to have a very confident victory. I'm gonna vote for Rock Lee.
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Mirio was absolutely going all out against Class 1-A, the entire point of that fight was that he was going all out because he was far too excited. It’s an issue Tamaki points out that Mirio has a hard time holding back.

Ignoring Gentle Criminal entirety for analytical prediction? What? He demonstrably predicted him in their fight and his predictions got better mid fight to predict him even after he got faster with Lover Mode, you’re just blatantly wrong.

Training is nice and all but that’s ignoring how much smarter Deku is than Rock Lee. He doesn’t need comparable years of training tk be able to beat him, he just needs to be good enough with the training he has. I’ve already noted that Rock Lee has an advantage in CQC, but Deku’s predictions cut that advantage down since he’s going to be predicting Rock Lee’s movements and completely avoiding him. Not to mention Deku has ranged attacks while Lee doesn’t, so he has for more options open for dealing damage and avoiding it.

The rest of your argument doesn’t really mean much I’m sorry to say. Everything I’ve already noted above has addressed your entire post, idk if you read above or not but you’re simply downplaying Deku to a horrendous degree and ignoring what he’s done in favor of Rock Lee, which I don’t believe is valid at all.

And referring to his wins as “plot boons” or “he had help” when none of that matters with how he would approach a fight with Rock Lee is ridiculous. Muscular was breaking his bones in one hit on top of Deku not even having Analytical Prediction yet. Overhaul had a quirk that was best impossible to avoid, he beat Gentle fair and square, and Stain was, again, before he even HAD analytical prediction.

I would heavily recommend reading above arguments before making such wild claims about Deku’s skill
 
GoGoPowerRanger said:
I don't really need to post a scan. He defeated Muscular via increasing his power past 100%. As for Gentle, Midoriya simply knocked him out with a St. Louis Smash. There was no plot device.

Except he didn't. His Quirk allows him to elastic platform from anything he touches, including air. And when Deku tried to shoot Gentle, his bullet was reflected off of a platform.
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You're not going to post a scan of Deku's analytical prediction versus Gentle? It's not mentioned on his profile, so you absolutely should. The burden of proof is on you. What I did find, though, was a scan of Deku failing to predict Gentle Criminal, and a gentle criminal before he powered up, who'd be slower than mirio, whose a lot slower than Rock Lee.

Kingofwolves999 said:
Mirio was absolutely...
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I think it's pretty fair to say that Mirio wasn't attacking children with killer intent, which is the definition of holding back. Tamaki mentions that he has a hard time, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. He's considered to be on the level of a Pro Hero and has a fantastic amount of control over his quirk. Pretty reasonable to assume he was holding back at least a bit.

I'm still gonna ask for scans of the Gentle Criminal fight. Can't really debate without 'em

About the training:
  1. You complain that I downplay Deku's skill and then dismiss Rock Lee's vast training advantages with 'training is nice and all'. I mean you basically dismissed my entire post and didn't actually respond to anything I said.
  2. I'm not gonna dismiss deku's intelligence, he's very smart and is definitely smarter than Rock Lee...at least, in pretty much every category other than fighting. Rock Lee is regarded as a taijutsu genius and overall very intelligent when it comes to fighting (and such is stated even on his profile) so Deku's intelligence gap isn't as big as you claim it is.
  3. Deku's analytical prediction is not shown to be nearly so effective that he can just nullify people vastly better at fighting than him. Nobody's really addressing the fact that Rock Lee's a lot faster than even Mirio and better trained. Deku wouldn't be able to use his prediction against him well at all.
  4. I think you got a bit offended by my statement about his wins. I'm not saying Deku just cheats through his fights but I'm saying that using them as examples of his beating stronger people wouldn't work because they're very context-specific. Stain & Overhaul would've stomped him without help and Muscular would've won without a random plot power-up.
    1. I'll admit that Deku versus Gentle Criminal was a good win on Deku's part. Still, he was nearly pushed to his limit by a C-rank villain with equal stats (with no training, either). At this point I really need scans and stuff because I went through the chapters containing the fight and didn't see him using his prediction versus lover mode. He only uses it in chapter's 179 and 180 so you can check for yourself.
  5. You said that his intelligence would nullify his CQC advantage, but why? Is there any proof that this would happen? Because there's proof suggesting that people slower/weaker than him can beat his prediction, and there isn't any proof suggesting Deku hardcounters Rock Lee, and Rock Lee is much faster than Mirio and has much better training.
 
Ayewale said:
You're not going to post a scan of Deku's analytical prediction versus Gentle? It's not mentioned on his profile, so you absolutely should. The burden of proof is on you. What I did find, though, was a scan of Deku failing to predict Gentle Criminal, and a gentle criminal before he powered up, who'd be slower than mirio, whose a lot slower than Rock Lee.



I think it's pretty fair to say that Mirio wasn't attacking children with killer intent, which is the definition of holding back. Tamaki mentions that he has a hard time, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. He's considered to be on the level of a Pro Hero and has a fantastic amount of control over his quirk. Pretty reasonable to assume he was holding back at least a bit.

I'm still gonna ask for scans of the Gentle Criminal fight. Can't really debate without 'em

About the training:
  1. You complain that I downplay Deku's skill and then dismiss Rock Lee's vast training advantages with 'training is nice and all'. I mean you basically dismissed my entire post and didn't actually respond to anything I said.
  2. I'm not gonna dismiss deku's intelligence, he's very smart and is definitely smarter than Rock Lee...at least, in pretty much every category other than fighting. Rock Lee is regarded as a taijutsu genius and overall very intelligent when it comes to fighting (and such is stated even on his profile) so Deku's intelligence gap isn't as big as you claim it is.
  3. Deku's analytical prediction is not shown to be nearly so effective that he can just nullify people vastly better at fighting than him. Nobody's really addressing the fact that Rock Lee's a lot faster than even Mirio and better trained. Deku wouldn't be able to use his prediction against him well at all.
  4. I think you got a bit offended by my statement about his wins. I'm not saying Deku just cheats through his fights but I'm saying that using them as examples of his beating stronger people wouldn't work because they're very context-specific. Stain & Overhaul would've stomped him without help and Muscular would've won without a random plot power-up.
    1. I'll admit that Deku versus Gentle Criminal was a good win on Deku's part. Still, he was nearly pushed to his limit by a C-rank villain with equal stats (with no training, either). At this point I really need scans and stuff because I went through the chapters containing the fight and didn't see him using his prediction versus lover mode. He only uses it in chapter's 179 and 180 so you can check for yourself.
  5. You said that his intelligence would nullify his CQC advantage, but why? Is there any proof that this would happen? Because there's proof suggesting that people slower/weaker than him can beat his prediction, and there isn't any proof suggesting Deku hardcounters Rock Lee, and Rock Lee is much faster than Mirio and has much better training.
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Oh boy a bible of text my favorite.

1. Chapter 178, he predicts Gentles movements, memorizes his air membranes and then bounces an Air Force shot off of his air wall right when he makes it despite it being invisible. He has literally overcome Gentle previously being unpredictable in this instant, and forces him into lover mode with this maneuver. Then, while in his faster lover mode, he predicts him again despite him maintaining his bouncing mobility that overwhelmed him before, and snipes him with Air Force shots into a St. Louis Smash. Idk how you read 179 and 180 but then missed 178 where he actually beat base Gentle.

2. Mirio was not holding back that doesn’t mean he was trying to kill them. That is your stipulation, and it is incorrect. I can punch someone hard and not be trying to kill them, that makes 0 sense at all when talking purely physical.

3. Because his training doesn’t actually equate to anything tangible. Give me something that is particularly useful in a fight that results from Rock Lee’s training please.

4. Cool he’s stated smart and a taijutsu genius, what are his feats. Deku has actual feats of his intelligence constantly overcoming opponents, analyzing abilities, making plans, dissecting quirks and so on. Rock Lee has statements and his fight with Gaara. That’s about it.

5. “A lot faster than Mirio” Buddy Mirio is faster than Mach 21 to Rock Lee’s Mach 29, it’s a less than 1.38x difference, that is not a lot faster at all, you’re simply wrong. It’s barely a difference in fact. And how is Rock Lee better trained? Can I get some understanding on what exactly this “training” for Rock Lee gives him? Mirio’s training lets him keep up with Overhaul WITHOUT HIS QUIRK for 5 minutes straight, and he has such precise control that he can selectively be intangible near instantly for any attacks that come his way while striking back at the same time. What on Earth are these Rock Lee feats you’re attempting to call upon with his training.

6. Stain was a weaker key, Overhaul was powered way up, Muscular was stronger and faster than him in verse to the point he was one shotting his bones. No one is citing them as wins, the opposition was using them as means of saying he loses, without looking at any of the context surrounding THOSE fights with THIS fight. Rock Lee wouldn’t do shit to Overhaul either with his constant regen and spike spam that’s even harder to dodge than Gaara’s sand since it’s the entire battlefield not just where there is sand. If Rock Lee fought an opponent who could break his arm and twist it backwards with a single punch, and that opponent was faster than him, and Rock Lee was fatigued, would you be using that as an Anti-Feat for Rock Lee? That’s what Muscular was to Deku, stop bringing him up.

Also, Gentle a C-Rank villain? That’s cause he doesn’t pull actual crimes, are you seriously trying to say that’s his level as a fighter? Gentle is a genius with his quirk and has spent years evading pros because he’s better than them on top of lover mode. He enters the story with mobility that makes Deku, who can predict Mirio coming out of the ground, say he’s impossible to read. His creativity with his ability and help from La Brava make him a strong opponent for anyone, especially when Deku only has blunt force and can’t just get through the elasticity. Calling Gentle a C-Rank villain as if that somehow takes away any of his skill is ridiculous. And no training? He’s been training for tens of years, went to hero school, learned everything his quirk could do by TRAINING. Idk what you’re doing trying to downplay Gentle like he’s a nothing villain, but then hype up other villains as if they didn’t have distinct advantages against Deku that if Rock Lee himself faced in his own verse would absolutely **** him over.

7. Gentle overwhelming his predictions is a feat for Gentle, not an Anti-Feat for Deku. Which is compounded when Deku begins reacting to Gentle in a faster mode literally 5 in-verse minutes later. Being able to predict Rock Lee’s next attack does indeed close the CQC gap, since he can dodge his moves and use his Air Force. Being able to know your opponents next move so you strike back first or respond faster is literally the basis of Analytical Prediction, so against someone whose only strength is cqc, Deku will absolutely recognize and begin adapting to his attacks to avoid them.

Again: THE VILLAINS HE FOUGHT WERE NOT JUST CQC. Saying he can’t deal with cqc because he couldn’t beat x villain is absurd when x villain fought him with abilities or advantages that Rock Lee does not have. Stop bringing them up as if they are relevant to the current discussion, or implying that I brought them up in the first place. That is a failed understanding on your part.

Scans? Sure. Chapter 178 - Deku predicts Gentles movements and adjusts to his air membranes despite being inches above the ground and saying he’s impossibly to predict a minute at best in the previous chapter.

Chalter 179-180 - Deku is actively reacting to Gentle’s bouncing attacks despite him being even faster now and eventually beats him by predicting one of his bounces to snipe him with an Air Force Shot into a St. Louis Smash.

Chapter 124 - Deku predicts Mirio’s movements despite Mirio being UNDERGROUND and one shotting the whole class AND being Mach 21 while not holding back. You can downplay his AP as hard as you want but speed wise Mirio is going all out, he has no reason to hold back his speed just cause he’s “not trying to kill them” which is a bad excuse for someone holding back in the first place.

Also Mirio is FASTER than Mach 21 since that was a weaker Rappa who got stronger and was easily outsped by Overhaul. Overhaul easily killed Rappa 5 times yet Mirio is faster than Overhaul by a lot, so much so he can fight Overhaul Quirkless for 5 minutes straight. Mach 21 = Young Rappa < Current Rappa << Overhaul << Mirio

“Rock Lee is a lot faster” <- yeah no

All I’ve learned from this discussion is that Rock Lee’s training needs some scans of actually doing anything ability wise other than just increasing his CQC skill by an unknown amount, and that if this was speed equal Deku would absolutely smack Rock Lee.
 
Also, if we’re trying to use villains as anti-feats for Deku, at least use his 8% key not his 5% one. That’s just completely disingenuous and trying to downplay him from a weaker state.

Also he kept up with Stain and would get stomped by him because his Quirk literally paralyzes people. If Stain slightly cuts you, you lose, calling that a skill gap, especially when Stain’s own skill isn’t even known, is ridiculous, unless you have to be completely untouched by your opponent to be skilled in comparison to them. Stain even praised his movement at the start of the fight and only didn’t continue fighting Deku solo because he slightly cut him, how does that = Deku is not skilled.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Oh boy a bible of text my favorite.

1. Chapter 178, he predicts Gentles movements, memorizes his air membranes and then bounces an Air Force shot off of his air wall right when he makes it despite it being invisible. He has literally overcome Gentle previously being unpredictable in this instant, and forces him into lover mode with this maneuver. Then, while in his faster lover mode, he predicts him again despite him maintaining his bouncing mobility that overwhelmed him before, and snipes him with Air Force shots into a St. Louis Smash. Idk how you read 179 and 180 but then missed 178 where he actually beat base Gentle.

2. Mirio was not holding back that doesn’t mean he was trying to kill them. That is your stipulation, and it is incorrect. I can punch someone hard and not be trying to kill them, that makes 0 sense at all when talking purely physical.

3. Because his training doesn’t actually equate to anything tangible. Give me something that is particularly useful in a fight that results from Rock Lee’s training please.

4. Cool he’s stated smart and a taijutsu genius, what are his feats. Deku has actual feats of his intelligence constantly overcoming opponents, analyzing abilities, making plans, dissecting quirks and so on. Rock Lee has statements and his fight with Gaara. That’s about it.

5. “A lot faster than Mirio” Buddy Mirio is faster than Mach 21 to Rock Lee’s Mach 29, it’s a less than 1.38x difference, that is not a lot faster at all, you’re simply wrong. It’s barely a difference in fact. And how is Rock Lee better trained? Can I get some understanding on what exactly this “training” for Rock Lee gives him? Mirio’s training lets him keep up with Overhaul WITHOUT HIS QUIRK for 5 minutes straight, and he has such precise control that he can selectively be intangible near instantly for any attacks that come his way while striking back at the same time. What on Earth are these Rock Lee feats you’re attempting to call upon with his training.

6. Stain was a weaker key, Overhaul was powered way up, Muscular was stronger and faster than him in verse to the point he was one shotting his bones. No one is citing them as wins, the opposition was using them as means of saying he loses, without looking at any of the context surrounding THOSE fights with THIS fight. Rock Lee wouldn’t do shit to Overhaul either with his constant regen and spike spam that’s even harder to dodge than Gaara’s sand since it’s the entire battlefield not just where there is sand. If Rock Lee fought an opponent who could break his arm and twist it backwards with a single punch, and that opponent was faster than him, and Rock Lee was fatigued, would you be using that as an Anti-Feat for Rock Lee? That’s what Muscular was to Deku, stop bringing him up.

Also, Gentle a C-Rank villain? That’s cause he doesn’t pull actual crimes, are you seriously trying to say that’s his level as a fighter? Gentle is a genius with his quirk and has spent years evading pros because he’s better than them on top of lover mode. He enters the story with mobility that makes Deku, who can predict Mirio coming out of the ground, say he’s impossible to read. His creativity with his ability and help from La Brava make him a strong opponent for anyone, especially when Deku only has blunt force and can’t just get through the elasticity. Calling Gentle a C-Rank villain as if that somehow takes away any of his skill is ridiculous. And no training? He’s been training for tens of years, went to hero school, learned everything his quirk could do by TRAINING. Idk what you’re doing trying to downplay Gentle like he’s a nothing villain, but then hype up other villains as if they didn’t have distinct advantages against Deku that if Rock Lee himself faced in his own verse would absolutely **** him over.

7. Gentle overwhelming his predictions is a feat for Gentle, not an Anti-Feat for Deku. Which is compounded when Deku begins reacting to Gentle in a faster mode literally 5 in-verse minutes later. Being able to predict Rock Lee’s next attack does indeed close the CQC gap, since he can dodge his moves and use his Air Force. Being able to know your opponents next move so you strike back first or respond faster is literally the basis of Analytical Prediction, so against someone whose only strength is cqc, Deku will absolutely recognize and begin adapting to his attacks to avoid them.

Again: THE VILLAINS HE FOUGHT WERE NOT JUST CQC. Saying he can’t deal with cqc because he couldn’t beat x villain is absurd when x villain fought him with abilities or advantages that Rock Lee does not have. Stop bringing them up as if they are relevant to the current discussion, or implying that I brought them up in the first place. That is a failed understanding on your part.

Scans? Sure. Chapter 178 - Deku predicts Gentles movements and adjusts to his air membranes despite being inches above the ground and saying he’s impossibly to predict a minute at best in the previous chapter.

Chalter 179-180 - Deku is actively reacting to Gentle’s bouncing attacks despite him being even faster now and eventually beats him by predicting one of his bounces to snipe him with an Air Force Shot into a St. Louis Smash.

Chapter 124 - Deku predicts Mirio’s movements despite Mirio being UNDERGROUND and one shotting the whole class AND being Mach 21 while not holding back. You can downplay his AP as hard as you want but speed wise Mirio is going all out, he has no reason to hold back his speed just cause he’s “not trying to kill them” which is a bad excuse for someone holding back in the first place.

Also Mirio is FASTER than Mach 21 since that was a weaker Rappa who got stronger and was easily outsped by Overhaul. Overhaul easily killed Rappa 5 times yet Mirio is faster than Overhaul by a lot, so much so he can fight Overhaul Quirkless for 5 minutes straight. Mach 21 = Young Rappa < Current Rappa << Overhaul << Mirio

“Rock Lee is a lot faster” <- yeah no

All I’ve learned from this discussion is that Rock Lee’s training needs some scans of actually doing anything ability wise other than just increasing his CQC skill by an unknown amount, and that if this was speed equal Deku would absolutely smack Rock Lee.
Click to expand...
I can't really debate with this because you're saying that Mirio is faster than Mach 21 (which, unless you're using decimals is objectively false), that Gentle is a fighting genius based off literally nothing and that Rock Lee being able to learn the eight gates, a forbidden technique that barely anyone in the series could ever learn, isn't a feat of his intelligence. Saying that training doesn't equal anything tangible is ridiculous considering how many vsbw battles are decided in part due to one character having better training. Then saying that not wanting to kill someone isn't holding back, which...is the same as saying he was trying as hard versus the kids as he was versus Overhaul. If you believe that there is no effort distinction between 'willing to kill' and 'unwilling to kill' then you're just arguing with site rules at that point.The cherry on top is that you said Rock Lee isn't faster than Deku, which is objectively untrue. Like, my dude, it is objectively untrue, you cannot argue your way around that.

Like, okay. If you're gonna tell me that Rock Lee being x3 as fast doesn't make him a lot faster then there's no point to this. I'm sticking with my vote. I'd respond to the rest of the points but if we can't agree on hard numbers then there's no point to the more nuanced debate.
 
Ayewale said:
I can't really debate with this because you're saying that Mirio is faster than Mach 21 (which, unless you're using decimals is objectively false), that Gentle is a fighting genius based off literally nothing and that Rock Lee being able to learn the eight gates, a forbidden technique that barely anyone in the series could ever learn, isn't a feat of his intelligence. Saying that training doesn't equal anything tangible is ridiculous considering how many vsbw battles are decided in part due to one character having better training. Then saying that not wanting to kill someone isn't holding back, which...is the same as saying he was trying as hard versus the kids as he was versus Overhaul. If you believe that there is no effort distinction between 'willing to kill' and 'unwilling to kill' then you're just arguing with site rules at that point.The cherry on top is that you said Rock Lee isn't faster than Deku, which is objectively untrue. Like, my dude, it is objectively untrue, you cannot argue your way around that.

Like, okay. If you're gonna tell me that Rock Lee being x3 as fast doesn't make him a lot faster then there's no point to this. I'm sticking with my vote. I'd respond to the rest of the points but if we can't agree on hard numbers then there's no point to the more nuanced debate.
Click to expand...
Bro, what?

Mirio has a scaling chain ABOVE Mach 21, what hard number am I disagreeing with you on? And even WITHOUT the scaling chain, he’s not much slower than Rock Lee (1.38x), so your point about Lee being way faster was just wrong.

None of that is what I was asking for with training. I want concrete feats about his SKILL. I want to know what feats he has that display cqc skill that makes him unreadable by Deku, that shows something that is actually tangible in this fight and indicative of lore than just “he trains a lot to use his techniques.” The main crux of Lee winning is his cqc, which everyone knows is better than Deku’s, but citing his training as if that means Deku can read his moves and just adapt is ridiculous.

Mirio was not trying to kill Overhaul. Was he holding back against Overhaul by your example then? Deku was not trying to kill Bakugo in their fight. Was he holding back then? Your standards for holding back are not a thing in MHA.

When did I say Deku was faster????? I said he can keep up with people 3x his speed near instantly with his predictions, that’s it. No duh he’s slower that’s the whole premise of this debate to give Deku as hard a time as possible with a speed and AP disadvantage. The point of everything I’ve been saying is that DESPITE this disadvantage, he has the tools to win anyway and more often than Lee will.

Rock Lee being 3x faster would be far worse if Deku didn’t have a direct feat of reacting to a 3x faster character within seconds of analyzing his movements patterns, to the point he could attack him coming out of the ground and surprise him, and then his predictions simply improved after his fight with Gentle.

IDK what “hard numbers” we’re disagreeing on when Mirio being > Mach 21 is an absolute fact. Cast your vote how you wish but you’re simply not understanding my argument if this is your ultimate conclusion.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
IDK what “hard numbers” we’re disagreeing on when Mirio being > Mach 21 is an absolute fact. Cast your vote how you wish but you’re simply not understanding my argument if this is your ultimate conclusion.
Click to expand...
scaling chain for reference.
Mirio ~ Overhaul > Rappa Strong Arm Quirk speed = O’Clock 3x Modifier = Mach 21
I put the ~ because idk if he’s equal or superior.
 
I forgot to mention this, but Uchihaslayer brought up a good point about Rock Lee that I had forgotten about. In the beginning of the Chunin Exams, Sasuke and Kotetsu attempted to strike one another with kicks, but Lee was able to move in between both of them and stop both of their kicks with his arms. Keep in mind, their kicks weren't regular kicks either: both of them performed intricate movements, or at least Kotetsu did, yet Lee was able to analyze their movements to not only get in between them before their kicks met, but to catch both of their feet with his hands simultaneously. Even if that's not as impressive as Deku's analytical prediction abilities, with his higher AP and speed, that should still be enough for Lee to win, as Lee would eventually figure out Deku's movements too, and with his superior skill, take the win.
 
I'm going with Rock Lee Here, Higher AP, Faster, better H2H fighter, I dont think Deku's analytical prediction is enough to turn the tides, Hell Rock Lee has performed exceptionally well even when impaired by Dosu's sound based jutsu.

However the bigger issue is Deku has no answer to Rock lee's speed amp using the body flicker which is already above his X3 speed advantage.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
I'm going with Rock Lee Here, Higher AP, Faster, better H2H fighter, I dont think Deku's analytical prediction is enough to turn the tides, Hell Rock Lee has performed exceptionally well even when impaired by Dosu's sound based jutsu.

However the bigger issue is Deku has no answer to Rock lee's speed amp using the body flicker which is already above his X3 speed advantage.
Click to expand...
I’m going to ask this again because I haven’t been answered, but isn’t Lee unable to use any chakra technique properly, even basic ones
 
Acer__ said:
I’m going to ask this again because I haven’t been answered, but isn’t Lee unable to use any chakra technique properly, even basic ones
Click to expand...
he can use the body flicker
nCnF7F3.jpeg
 
Acer__ said:
I asked Cisco why he didn’t equalize speed cause Lee is already 3x faster and he has every other major stat advantage, but that’s not here or there
Click to expand...
Cuz KingWolves believed that it didn't matter cuz he could analyze the speed of opponents x3 faster than him and so it wouldn't be a problem, and nobody else really came to argue that point either.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Cuz KingWolves believed that it didn't matter cuz he could analyze the speed of opponents x3 faster than him and so it wouldn't be a problem, and nobody else really came to argue that point either.
Click to expand...
bruh
please Cisco you want this match to happen but body flicker means he speed blitzes Deku and beats him down before he can fight back I don’t think that’s a valid fight or entertaining
 
I should prob Mentioned that Rock lee can also increase his speed, using abiliites like Front Lotus which blizted characters that were as fast as his regular speed.
 
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