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These are questions I cannot fully answer as there are a ton of details for this hierarchy and as such, I don't remember details.
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Revision in the Digimon World Hierarchy
- Thread starter Executor_N0
- Start date
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- digimon
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- Thread starter
- #82
@DragonEmperor23 The Network Layers/Dimensional Wall layers are simply used in "You need to cross six layers to them reach the physical layer of the Digital World".
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Then Dragon's proposal makes sense.
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Of course, Absolute God Tiers like Yggdrasil, True Lucemon, Zeed, basically all the Low 1-C's could be higher depending how we treat the various realms of the Digital World. Are the Realm of the Holy Beasts and the Kernel Higher Dimensional or implied to be? If so, that's a buff to 9-D. If not, then 7-D.
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@Dragonmasterxyz Just like all the other layers, these are called "higher worlds" or "higher layers" while the ones below are called "Lower World". It's the same thing in all of this.
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So, I guess we are on the part where we have to decide whether "higher worlds" can be higher dimensions. While I believe we can throw out the initial 6 layers before the Digital World, but the layers of the Digital World can be more discussed.
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So in order to keep this conversation going, I will ask these questions. Otherwise, this thread will die...Sorry if you've already answered this.
1. What termnology does Digimon use to refer to higher dimensions?
2. What parts of the Digimon Hierarchy would you consider being higher dimensions and why? Are these layers and realms of the Digital World apart of these?
3. What is you honest thoughts on the size of the cosmology?
1. What termnology does Digimon use to refer to higher dimensions?
2. What parts of the Digimon Hierarchy would you consider being higher dimensions and why? Are these layers and realms of the Digital World apart of these?
3. What is you honest thoughts on the size of the cosmology?
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- #88
1) Most often, references are related to "something higher" and "something lower", but the terms commonly used are layers or worlds, which makes sense because of the franchise's source of inspiration.
The only times we have had a direct reference to higher dimensions are:
2) I do not see these things as being separate within the franchise. At least the layers have never been described differently, always used in the same sentences, with the same terms, etc. I do not see how to determine the structures of the hierarchy differently, at least with my knowledge of it.
It's more like I have no basis to describe the structures as something different within the franchise.
And from what I know, they're all the same. For example, in the Digimon Tamers map all levels of existence are called "layers" from Network layers to Digital World layers.
3) My opinion is just what is in the franchise, how this is equivalent here at VsBattles is already something that is out of my knowledge because there are many variables. And the "level" of it, is basically something that is being complicated here.
For example, it is common for some franchises to follow this:
So if the existence of different planes of existence with infinite multiverses existing at each level of reality is not enough for begin a "higher dimension", then Digimon will not undergo any change from Tier 2 to Tier 1.
Right now the greatest proof that perhaps the layers of the hierarchy of worlds are higher dimensions is that in fact the layer of the Eaters is constantly called a "higher dimension," so if the Eaters are part of the hierarchy of worlds, which is defined as being a set of different planes of existence divided into layers, and the Eaters only exist as part of these layers (In fact they travel to lower worlds to analyze their data) and we know that the interaction of the Eaters with Digimon (And consequently with humans ) is the same as the Digimon with Humans, so this demonstrates that there is a dimensional difference between the levels of the World Hierarchy.
This is currently the most solid base since "higher planes of existence" is not enough for a tier increase.
The only times we have had a direct reference to higher dimensions are:
- Anything related to Eaters. Their world is sometimes called as Higher Dimensional (Ú½ÿµ¼íÕàâ) and other times Hyper Dimensional (ÞÂർíÕàâ);
- Ragnalordmon, it's said that the Digicores have fused in "a higher dimension" (Ú½ÿÒüäµ¼íÕàâ);
- The power of Decker Greymon was said to be in a "higher dimension" (Ú½ÿÒüäµ¼íÕàâ)level in relation to attack, defense and movement.
2) I do not see these things as being separate within the franchise. At least the layers have never been described differently, always used in the same sentences, with the same terms, etc. I do not see how to determine the structures of the hierarchy differently, at least with my knowledge of it.
It's more like I have no basis to describe the structures as something different within the franchise.
And from what I know, they're all the same. For example, in the Digimon Tamers map all levels of existence are called "layers" from Network layers to Digital World layers.
3) My opinion is just what is in the franchise, how this is equivalent here at VsBattles is already something that is out of my knowledge because there are many variables. And the "level" of it, is basically something that is being complicated here.
For example, it is common for some franchises to follow this:
- There's space-time universe (Low 2-C);
- There's a infinite number of universes (2-A);
- There's a realm beyond the space and time of infinite universes (High 2-A);
So if the existence of different planes of existence with infinite multiverses existing at each level of reality is not enough for begin a "higher dimension", then Digimon will not undergo any change from Tier 2 to Tier 1.
Right now the greatest proof that perhaps the layers of the hierarchy of worlds are higher dimensions is that in fact the layer of the Eaters is constantly called a "higher dimension," so if the Eaters are part of the hierarchy of worlds, which is defined as being a set of different planes of existence divided into layers, and the Eaters only exist as part of these layers (In fact they travel to lower worlds to analyze their data) and we know that the interaction of the Eaters with Digimon (And consequently with humans ) is the same as the Digimon with Humans, so this demonstrates that there is a dimensional difference between the levels of the World Hierarchy.
This is currently the most solid base since "higher planes of existence" is not enough for a tier increase.
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So then, I will ask you this.
Do you think we can say with increased certainty that the Layer of the Eaters is similar to the other layers? If so, then I think we have something more solid as long as we have the context. This comparison will be important.
Do you think we can say with increased certainty that the Layer of the Eaters is similar to the other layers? If so, then I think we have something more solid as long as we have the context. This comparison will be important.
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It's all the same hierarchy, the description of the Mother Eater is: "It is an entity that oversees Eater in this world hierarchy and accumulates the eaten data."
First let's establish how the Eaters manifest themselves in our world. Eaters impact Digital Waves, when a large amount of Digital Waves are concentrated in a region, Digital Shift occurs where the Eaters manifest in our dimension. In normal conditions when the Eaters manifest in our world, they appear exactly as "energy spheres" and are placed as the explanation for supernatural phenomena.
This is the same as with the Digimon. For Digimon to manifest in our world, the laws must be broken, the structure of the "Physical" must change to the "Digital", this occurs in distortions where the worlds connect.
And of course, when a Digimon manifests itself in smaller states in the Real World, what happens? The same kinds of supernatural events that occur when the Eaters manifest. The quotes about that are in one of my previous comments.
Of course, when this occurs there needs to be many concentrations of Digital Wavers, which is the name of the energy flowing from the digital worlds and can also flow into the Real World (It's talking about "digital" in the sense of digital structure, the World of Eaters is also Digital, the Network is also Digital, the Digital World is... well digital. All these worlds are "digital", but they existis in a different level).
The whole story in Cyber Sleuth has the idea of evolution. Suedo wanted to evolve the Real World to something bigger, and for that he fused the Digital World and Real World , to give our world the same possibilities as the Digital World. And when that was not enough, he would seek to evolve even more with the power of the Eaters.
They are both parts of the same hierarchy, have been shown to function in the same way, use the same concepts to express themselves and explain how they work, were compared directly to degrees of superiority, and the only difference between them is that the World of Eaters is called a " higher dimension "while the" Digital World "has never been called this, although it is established in the same way as the whole World Hierarchy as well.
First let's establish how the Eaters manifest themselves in our world. Eaters impact Digital Waves, when a large amount of Digital Waves are concentrated in a region, Digital Shift occurs where the Eaters manifest in our dimension. In normal conditions when the Eaters manifest in our world, they appear exactly as "energy spheres" and are placed as the explanation for supernatural phenomena.
This is the same as with the Digimon. For Digimon to manifest in our world, the laws must be broken, the structure of the "Physical" must change to the "Digital", this occurs in distortions where the worlds connect.
And of course, when a Digimon manifests itself in smaller states in the Real World, what happens? The same kinds of supernatural events that occur when the Eaters manifest. The quotes about that are in one of my previous comments.
Of course, when this occurs there needs to be many concentrations of Digital Wavers, which is the name of the energy flowing from the digital worlds and can also flow into the Real World (It's talking about "digital" in the sense of digital structure, the World of Eaters is also Digital, the Network is also Digital, the Digital World is... well digital. All these worlds are "digital", but they existis in a different level).
The whole story in Cyber Sleuth has the idea of evolution. Suedo wanted to evolve the Real World to something bigger, and for that he fused the Digital World and Real World , to give our world the same possibilities as the Digital World. And when that was not enough, he would seek to evolve even more with the power of the Eaters.
They are both parts of the same hierarchy, have been shown to function in the same way, use the same concepts to express themselves and explain how they work, were compared directly to degrees of superiority, and the only difference between them is that the World of Eaters is called a " higher dimension "while the" Digital World "has never been called this, although it is established in the same way as the whole World Hierarchy as well.
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Then I think we could treat all layers as higher dimensions.
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Well then. I think we have the information and context needed. Now we just need verification that we have what is needed.
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One more question while we wait for opinions.
How many layers are between the "Physical Layer" of the Digital World and the World of the Holy Beasts?
To play with this idea.
Physical World = 4-D
6 Layers (assuming that being a Higher Dimension is accepted or if we count these layers) = 10-D at the end.
PL Digital World = 11-D (No, not all Digimon are 11-D in combat. Don't get any crazy ideas. The lower tiers stay the same). 5-D (If we don't count the previous layers as Higher Dimensions)
Layers and beyond = 12-D or higher (Assuming previous 6 layers are counted as Higher Dimensions). 6-D or higher (Previous 6 layers are not counted as HD)
But I am not gonna get ahead of myself.
How many layers are between the "Physical Layer" of the Digital World and the World of the Holy Beasts?
To play with this idea.
Physical World = 4-D
6 Layers (assuming that being a Higher Dimension is accepted or if we count these layers) = 10-D at the end.
PL Digital World = 11-D (No, not all Digimon are 11-D in combat. Don't get any crazy ideas. The lower tiers stay the same). 5-D (If we don't count the previous layers as Higher Dimensions)
Layers and beyond = 12-D or higher (Assuming previous 6 layers are counted as Higher Dimensions). 6-D or higher (Previous 6 layers are not counted as HD)
But I am not gonna get ahead of myself.
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I think that we could put a Possibly for counting the layers if we can't come to a conclusion on counting them. I think we should though, as they are referred to as on the same level as the others.
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After reading through Executor's explanation, I think an upgrade is in order for Digimon's God-Tiers, especially if the layers of the Digital World indeed follow the Neoplatonic cosmology described in the OP and all that jazz.
Though I have quite a bit of doubt regarding the layers of the Dimensional Wall between the Real World and the Digital World being considered higher-order spaces, since apparently there isn't much information regarding them, and when dealing with things like Layers and "Higher Planes of Existence" there needs to be a bit more context to prove one is qualitatively above the other, since these things don't necessarily have to be something like a Composite Hierarchy and can just be superimposed over one another.
And if we do consider them to be relevant for the ratings of the verse, would the Physical Layer of the Digital World really be "above" the Dimensional Wall in the hierarchy? Since the blogs say that it is more like a barrier which separates the Real World and the Digital World and prevents them from merging together, and is actually what allows travel between both worlds. This is mostly just addressing Dragon's post here, to be exact.
Though I have quite a bit of doubt regarding the layers of the Dimensional Wall between the Real World and the Digital World being considered higher-order spaces, since apparently there isn't much information regarding them, and when dealing with things like Layers and "Higher Planes of Existence" there needs to be a bit more context to prove one is qualitatively above the other, since these things don't necessarily have to be something like a Composite Hierarchy and can just be superimposed over one another.
And if we do consider them to be relevant for the ratings of the verse, would the Physical Layer of the Digital World really be "above" the Dimensional Wall in the hierarchy? Since the blogs say that it is more like a barrier which separates the Real World and the Digital World and prevents them from merging together, and is actually what allows travel between both worlds. This is mostly just addressing Dragon's post here, to be exact.
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Yeah, I am iffy on the initial 6 layers being higher dimensions. But, I'll let Ex explain that bit. I am interested in the realms above the "Physical Digital World". But we only know there are "several" of them, i.e more than two.
Based on Ultima's comment, I'd say that a big point we need to iron out is whether the dimensional barrier is considered to be a higher plane than the Physical Human world which is the 4-D Multiverse and then whether the Digital World is above those layers. We know the Digital World is a higher dimension to the Physical World as it is noted as so and this comparison is used to explain the difference between the Digital World to the World of the Eaters which was directly stated to be a higher dimension that even Yggdrasil cannot fully understand/comprehend.
Even ignoring those 6 layers however, we end up with this.
Physical World = 4-D
Digital World = 5-D
Several (As in more than two) = 7-D or 8-D
World of the Holy Beasts = 8-D or 9-D
Yggdrasil's Realm (Kernel) = 9-D or 10-D (This is where God Tiers + All Delete would end up)
World of the Eaters = 10-D or 11-D
Other Works of God and God itself = Unknown (Higher than the World of the Eaters, but unknown how many are there)
Hoped this helped.
Based on Ultima's comment, I'd say that a big point we need to iron out is whether the dimensional barrier is considered to be a higher plane than the Physical Human world which is the 4-D Multiverse and then whether the Digital World is above those layers. We know the Digital World is a higher dimension to the Physical World as it is noted as so and this comparison is used to explain the difference between the Digital World to the World of the Eaters which was directly stated to be a higher dimension that even Yggdrasil cannot fully understand/comprehend.
Even ignoring those 6 layers however, we end up with this.
Physical World = 4-D
Digital World = 5-D
Several (As in more than two) = 7-D or 8-D
World of the Holy Beasts = 8-D or 9-D
Yggdrasil's Realm (Kernel) = 9-D or 10-D (This is where God Tiers + All Delete would end up)
World of the Eaters = 10-D or 11-D
Other Works of God and God itself = Unknown (Higher than the World of the Eaters, but unknown how many are there)
Hoped this helped.
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The "Dimensional Wall" also has its own worlds, they are layers just like all the others.
The trickiest part is that sometimes it is portrayed as actually being a "barrier" that separates the worlds, while in others it is just another of the worlds that must be crossed to move between the layers... wait... Actually, I'm not sure if we can to really consider the Network between the Digital World and the Real World as being the same thing as the Dimensional Barrier ... I mean, the Dimensional Barrier is described as being what keeps the worlds apart while the Network is the world between the Real World and the Digital World which is the main means of communication between these two worlds ... Since in this general context both would be "between the real world and the digital world" I may have ended up making the mistake of simply assigning them as being the same thing ... I think I should correct this on the blog (Even more so when we attribute that the separation of worlds is a result of the power of the Four Holy Beast, and not specifically of the existence of the Network that would be just another layer ... I really need to fix this).
From the cosmological point of view, we know that the Network has its own worlds and complexity, since it is interpreted as the "communications network" of humans most of the times, it have several worlds within it like the Enden Network which is composed of its their own universes. However, still separated from the really human relation, we know that there really is something on the network between the Real World and the Digital World because of Appmon, where they are described exactly as "They live on the network that exists between the Real World and the Digital world".
The trickiest part is that sometimes it is portrayed as actually being a "barrier" that separates the worlds, while in others it is just another of the worlds that must be crossed to move between the layers... wait... Actually, I'm not sure if we can to really consider the Network between the Digital World and the Real World as being the same thing as the Dimensional Barrier ... I mean, the Dimensional Barrier is described as being what keeps the worlds apart while the Network is the world between the Real World and the Digital World which is the main means of communication between these two worlds ... Since in this general context both would be "between the real world and the digital world" I may have ended up making the mistake of simply assigning them as being the same thing ... I think I should correct this on the blog (Even more so when we attribute that the separation of worlds is a result of the power of the Four Holy Beast, and not specifically of the existence of the Network that would be just another layer ... I really need to fix this).
From the cosmological point of view, we know that the Network has its own worlds and complexity, since it is interpreted as the "communications network" of humans most of the times, it have several worlds within it like the Enden Network which is composed of its their own universes. However, still separated from the really human relation, we know that there really is something on the network between the Real World and the Digital World because of Appmon, where they are described exactly as "They live on the network that exists between the Real World and the Digital world".
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Because I am bored and will wait on Ex's edit of the blog for the Dimensional Barrier and Network and maybe what Ultima thinks about it.
If the scaling was to stay the same (It's not), this would be the new rating assuming the six layers are not higher dimensions.
God Tiers
Yggdrasil, True Lucemon, Unsealed Zeed, DarknessBagramon, The one Shoutmon form, Voltbautamon, VictoryGreymon, ZeedGarurumon, All Delete and N.E.O.
Current Stats: Low 1-C" or "At least High 2-A" (We haven't updated Ygg yet) or "At least 2-A" (Volt is the same as Ygg)
New Stats: "High 1-C".
Top Tiers
.............All the 2-A's..............
Current Stats: "At least 2-A"
New Stats: "At least High 2-A"
......Everything else stay the same....
If the scaling was to stay the same (It's not), this would be the new rating assuming the six layers are not higher dimensions.
God Tiers
Yggdrasil, True Lucemon, Unsealed Zeed, DarknessBagramon, The one Shoutmon form, Voltbautamon, VictoryGreymon, ZeedGarurumon, All Delete and N.E.O.
Current Stats: Low 1-C" or "At least High 2-A" (We haven't updated Ygg yet) or "At least 2-A" (Volt is the same as Ygg)
New Stats: "High 1-C".
Top Tiers
.............All the 2-A's..............
Current Stats: "At least 2-A"
New Stats: "At least High 2-A"
......Everything else stay the same....
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Can't we do a Possibly for counting the layers as Higher Dimensions?
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If we do not see the initial 6 layers as higher dimensions then at most we give a "possibly higher".
Not really comfortable with giving say Yggdrasil "At least High 1-C, possibly 1-B" for these 6 layers when we cannot really make them out to be HD.
Not really comfortable with giving say Yggdrasil "At least High 1-C, possibly 1-B" for these 6 layers when we cannot really make them out to be HD.
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I'd rather go with Dragon's interpretation as its much more concrete.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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DragonMaster does make sense to me.
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So I think we have advanced a good deal in this conversation which is nice.
So I will go over somethings.
There will be many changes with Digimon files and who scales to what.
1) Like I said, those who are 3-C and below are not going to sky rocket in tiers. They are going to stay 3-C and below. So don't think we will end up with High 2-A MarineAngemo simply due to us accepting the Digital World's Physical Layer being a 5-D realm.
2) There will be some substantial upgrades and downgrades alike. In terms of downgrades, there are characters who are 2-A who would be downgraded to 3-C. Among these are the Warrior Ten.
3) Some Upgrades would include Mother Eater and the CS cast. However, this is their feat alone. We aren't going to scale all 2-A's to them. That would be bad and a big no in my book.
4) Don't assume feats of "destroying the Digital World System" or "destroying All Worlds" equal Tier 1. It doesn't. Context is important. The 2-A feats are High 2-A. Not High 1-C. Why? Because, most of these feats don't even reach the higher layers. So no. High 2-A unless we have further context.
5)If push comes to shove....everyone ends up as 11-C.
So I will go over somethings.
There will be many changes with Digimon files and who scales to what.
1) Like I said, those who are 3-C and below are not going to sky rocket in tiers. They are going to stay 3-C and below. So don't think we will end up with High 2-A MarineAngemo simply due to us accepting the Digital World's Physical Layer being a 5-D realm.
2) There will be some substantial upgrades and downgrades alike. In terms of downgrades, there are characters who are 2-A who would be downgraded to 3-C. Among these are the Warrior Ten.
3) Some Upgrades would include Mother Eater and the CS cast. However, this is their feat alone. We aren't going to scale all 2-A's to them. That would be bad and a big no in my book.
4) Don't assume feats of "destroying the Digital World System" or "destroying All Worlds" equal Tier 1. It doesn't. Context is important. The 2-A feats are High 2-A. Not High 1-C. Why? Because, most of these feats don't even reach the higher layers. So no. High 2-A unless we have further context.
5)
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1) As in Digimon exists the mechanics of equivalence of existence, due to all processes of Digital Shift, Realise, or even existences in distortions, it is very simple not to put this in the profiles (At least not as a base information) because it is not something notorious. Just like not every demon in SMT is Immeasurable because of the nature of the demons, since a big part of them aren't used in that way (Unless in lore) until the big bosses.
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Yeah lol, I was about to ask about the Mother Eater.
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How big?
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If the updates follow my comment.
This would mean this High 4-C or 4-A who has been shown to only be comparable to Ultimate level Digimon (Who are consistently in the Tier 4 scale)...has been constantly noted to be able to destroy Yggdrasil and reformat her.....EASILY I might add. So a big High 1-C outlier.
This would mean this High 4-C or 4-A who has been shown to only be comparable to Ultimate level Digimon (Who are consistently in the Tier 4 scale)...has been constantly noted to be able to destroy Yggdrasil and reformat her.....EASILY I might add. So a big High 1-C outlier.
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Not exactly Yggdrasil, as this character was not something back then. But the descriptions of Megadramon are very clear 0v0
Megadramon, the Godslayer of Digimon 0v0
| As a Digimon that was artificially remodeled by someone, it was programmed to destroy everything. It can definitely be said that its existence is the epitome of a computer virus. It can easily penetrate Computer Networks protected by strong security, and can very easily destroy and then completely reformat the host computer. | ||
~ DRB Megadramon Profile |
| Following its destruction program, it attacks the network system! | ||
~ St-363 |
| A Virus Dark Dragon who was modified by an unknown entity to be able to destroy a network even when working alone. It invades computer networks and destroys their host computers, inserting its own modifications all while barely expending any effort. | ||
~ Digimon Jintrix |
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^That is so misleading.
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So the scaling blog should be ready by this week or next week assuming everything goes smoothly here as it has been.
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Suck it ArceusDragonmasterxyz said:
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How many times is he shown as comparable to Ultimates?
If the consistency leans more towards the higher rating, then the lower ones can be dismissed. Either that or a compromise could be made between both.
If the consistency leans more towards the higher rating, then the lower ones can be dismissed. Either that or a compromise could be made between both.
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Works under Machinedramon a Mega in Digimon Adventures.
Defeated by Cyberdramon a Ultimate in Digimon Tamers.
Defeated by Knightmon a Ultimate in Digimon Adventure V-Tamer.
Also defeated by Agunimon and Lobomon two Champions in Digimon Adventure V-Tamer as well.
As well as a bunch of other appearances as Digimon fodder.
Defeated by Cyberdramon a Ultimate in Digimon Tamers.
Defeated by Knightmon a Ultimate in Digimon Adventure V-Tamer.
Also defeated by Agunimon and Lobomon two Champions in Digimon Adventure V-Tamer as well.
As well as a bunch of other appearances as Digimon fodder.
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Megadramon started as "the strongest Dragon-type Cyborg Digimon of the Perfect level" and as like the "main pre-evo" of Mugendramon that at the time was said to be "the strongest Digimon ever".
Anyway, after that the setting changed A LOT and these Digimon are now "Digimon fodder" jn a lot of games XD
Anyway, after that the setting changed A LOT and these Digimon are now "Digimon fodder" jn a lot of games XD
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Man I remember the days when Machinedramon/Mugendramon was stated to be the strongest Digimon. In a similar vein to Megadramon, as things evolved, these two became fodder, to the Top and God Tiers anyway. For their levels, they are still pretty powerful.
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Power creep's a b*tch
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Maybe theirs some weird alternate Digital world where Machinedramon is the strongest. I think he was added to Digimon before Mega level was a thing.
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