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Resistance to teleportation/BFR/magic for DBZ Goku
- Thread starter AKM sama
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- dragon ball son goku
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A good reality warper can mimic pretty much every power that you'll find on the wiki. That's why this isn't resistance against reality warping but against the specific power that was used (And it seems that the resistance isn't legit anyway)AKM sama said:
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@AKM sama
As cal said, just a bit earlier Goku had to especifically ask Porunga to leave him out of the wish to transport everyone out of Namek, so he doesn't have resistance there. It's thus much more likely that Porunga simply contacted Goku and Goku told him not to do it, as Porunga clearly says "He refused", no "It didn't work" or "It won't work".
Even if Porunga didn't and refused mean he failed to teleport Goku, it would simply mean that Goku, unlike Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo who were far below him in terms of power, was strong enough so Porunga couldn't force him to teleport against his will. "Not being able to affect stronger beings with some wishes" is a known limit of wishing dragons. Even if it's there for plot purposes with nebulous rules on what flies or not (what you brought up of not being able to revert the androids back to humans but being able to remove their bombs), you don't get to handwave it away just because Porunga teleported people much weaker than Goku.
As cal said, just a bit earlier Goku had to especifically ask Porunga to leave him out of the wish to transport everyone out of Namek, so he doesn't have resistance there. It's thus much more likely that Porunga simply contacted Goku and Goku told him not to do it, as Porunga clearly says "He refused", no "It didn't work" or "It won't work".
Even if Porunga didn't and refused mean he failed to teleport Goku, it would simply mean that Goku, unlike Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo who were far below him in terms of power, was strong enough so Porunga couldn't force him to teleport against his will. "Not being able to affect stronger beings with some wishes" is a known limit of wishing dragons. Even if it's there for plot purposes with nebulous rules on what flies or not (what you brought up of not being able to revert the androids back to humans but being able to remove their bombs), you don't get to handwave it away just because Porunga teleported people much weaker than Goku.
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Well it's sort of inconsistent since when Porunga wished everyone to be teleported off of Namek, vegeta wanted to fight Frieza, but was teleported out without being told he was. And this is the only time where someone that's being affected by the wish said he doesn't want the wish to happen.
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Reasons? You want reasons?
1)"Aren't wishing dragons like Porunga and Shenron pretty limited in their Reality Warping? As in, their power depends on the power of their creator so they cannot affect beings that are above them against their will? Shenron couldn't just wish away or kill Vegeta and Nappa, for example. That's not a resistance feat, it's a shortcoming of the wishing dragon."
REALLY LIMITED REALITY WARPING. also, let me remind you that Goku is vastly superior to Guru or Dende (who was their kami at that point?)
2) "Not to mention, you can't place Resistance to Reality Warping unless one is shown to resist reality warping from several different sources (Magic, tech, etc...), as it should be Resistance to Magic (As there is another showing of resistance against a magic ability ie Vegeta with the mind manipulation) or unwilling teleportation."
"Resistance to Reality warping" is like saying "Resistance to everything" because, you know, every single power (or almost) can be classified as limited or a form of RW.
3) This feat can be classified as a number of ways instead of "Resistance to RW".
"That's like, resistance against BFR (In the form of teleportation) at best"
4) Porunga said: "He refused"
Porunga never said: "I cannot bring him back"
You interpret this scene the way it suits your agenda, sorry. But that is hardly proof enough of Porunga not having the ability to affect Goku.
1)"Aren't wishing dragons like Porunga and Shenron pretty limited in their Reality Warping? As in, their power depends on the power of their creator so they cannot affect beings that are above them against their will? Shenron couldn't just wish away or kill Vegeta and Nappa, for example. That's not a resistance feat, it's a shortcoming of the wishing dragon."
REALLY LIMITED REALITY WARPING. also, let me remind you that Goku is vastly superior to Guru or Dende (who was their kami at that point?)
2) "Not to mention, you can't place Resistance to Reality Warping unless one is shown to resist reality warping from several different sources (Magic, tech, etc...), as it should be Resistance to Magic (As there is another showing of resistance against a magic ability ie Vegeta with the mind manipulation) or unwilling teleportation."
"Resistance to Reality warping" is like saying "Resistance to everything" because, you know, every single power (or almost) can be classified as limited or a form of RW.
3) This feat can be classified as a number of ways instead of "Resistance to RW".
"That's like, resistance against BFR (In the form of teleportation) at best"
4) Porunga said: "He refused"
Porunga never said: "I cannot bring him back"
You interpret this scene the way it suits your agenda, sorry. But that is hardly proof enough of Porunga not having the ability to affect Goku.
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- Thread starter
- #47
Okay, I know Porunga has limited reality warping. But it's still reality warping.Kaltias said:
It would be a strech to assume that Porunga didn't use his only power to displace Goku.
So maybe "limited" resistance?
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Okay, there are a lot of comments regarding "Porunga has limits", "Goku is stronger", "Goku refused, and Porunga didn't say he can't bring him back"
Well, I am saddened by the fact that all of this has been covered at the top and people are still ignoring it.
Well, I am saddened by the fact that all of this has been covered at the top and people are still ignoring it.
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...;_; only PaChi2 noticed my comment...
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- #51
I am gonna emphasize on this bit again.
When the wishes were beyond their powers, they flat out informed the wish-makers about it without even trying to perform them.
In this particular case however Porunga tried to teleport Goku. He never once made a statement about his limitations that this was something beyond his jurisdiction, nor did he say anything about the power gap. He tried and Goku simply resisted it and there was nothing Porunga could do about it.
And dragon's don't seek permissions to carry out the wishes. This is further evidenced by the fact that the same dragon transported everyone on planet Namek.
When the wishes were beyond their powers, they flat out informed the wish-makers about it without even trying to perform them.
In this particular case however Porunga tried to teleport Goku. He never once made a statement about his limitations that this was something beyond his jurisdiction, nor did he say anything about the power gap. He tried and Goku simply resisted it and there was nothing Porunga could do about it.
And dragon's don't seek permissions to carry out the wishes. This is further evidenced by the fact that the same dragon transported everyone on planet Namek.
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I noticed, SD-sama ;-;SomebodyData said:
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- Thread starter
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I can agree to this but can anyone first explain how Porunga does not use his only power of RW to displace people from one place to another?Kaltias said:
If not, shouldn't this at least be "limited" resistance to RW?
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@AKM oh didn't see that lol
"Is there a rule like this?"
Surprisingly no, while it seems to generally be accepted in people's heads (Like giving fire resistance rather than say magic resistance for resisting magically produced fire), no one really brings it up. Now if one were to resist magically produced stuff often (unless it's like the only source of power in the verse), then it would imply resistance to magic instead. In this case just replace magic with RW and fire with teleportation.
"What if, as in this case, the character has been exposed to it only once? Do we simply ignore it and pretend it never happened?"
Unless it was PIS (Which this is not the case), no we don't. That's why I'm suggesting resistance to unwilling teleportation / BFR or magic (considering Vegeta has resisted mind manipulation magic)
@Cal ;_; thx
"Is there a rule like this?"
Surprisingly no, while it seems to generally be accepted in people's heads (Like giving fire resistance rather than say magic resistance for resisting magically produced fire), no one really brings it up. Now if one were to resist magically produced stuff often (unless it's like the only source of power in the verse), then it would imply resistance to magic instead. In this case just replace magic with RW and fire with teleportation.
"What if, as in this case, the character has been exposed to it only once? Do we simply ignore it and pretend it never happened?"
Unless it was PIS (Which this is not the case), no we don't. That's why I'm suggesting resistance to unwilling teleportation / BFR or magic (considering Vegeta has resisted mind manipulation magic)
@Cal ;_; thx
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@AKM sama
Well, I am saddened by the fact that all of this has been covered at the top and people are still ignoring it.
No. You tried to pretend the obvious arguments against it aren't valid and don't count because Porunga teleported much more weaker characters than Goku, which is nonsensical, and you keep ignoring how Goku had to especifically ask in the prior wish to not be teleported away.
When the wishes were beyond their powers, they flat out informed the wish-makers about it without even trying to perform them. In this particular case however Porunga tried to teleport Goku. He never once made a statement about his limitations that this was something beyond his jurisdiction, nor did he say anything about the power gap. He tried and Goku simply resisted it and there was nothing Porunga could do about it.
Do you have any proof Porunga actually tried to teleport Goku without his consent? Because if so I'd like to see it. The pause Porunga makes could just as well be him contacting Goku by telepathy and Goku refusing to be teleported, just like Porunga says. And this still means nothing given the prior point debunks your entire argument.
And dragon's don't seek permissions to carry out the wishes. This is further evidenced by the fact that the same dragon transported everyone on planet Namek.
There would no point to using the word refuse if there wasn't some sort of interaction. That Porunga didn't bother asking for permission from much weaker characters doesn't mean he wouldn't necessarily need to get permission to transport a much stronger, clearly above his power, Goku.
To sum up, there's no actual proof Porunga actually tried to teleport Goku against his will and failed, and the fact that Goku had to exclude himself from being teleported away from Namek points that Porunga would have been successful on his attempt to do so.
Well, I am saddened by the fact that all of this has been covered at the top and people are still ignoring it.
No. You tried to pretend the obvious arguments against it aren't valid and don't count because Porunga teleported much more weaker characters than Goku, which is nonsensical, and you keep ignoring how Goku had to especifically ask in the prior wish to not be teleported away.
When the wishes were beyond their powers, they flat out informed the wish-makers about it without even trying to perform them. In this particular case however Porunga tried to teleport Goku. He never once made a statement about his limitations that this was something beyond his jurisdiction, nor did he say anything about the power gap. He tried and Goku simply resisted it and there was nothing Porunga could do about it.
Do you have any proof Porunga actually tried to teleport Goku without his consent? Because if so I'd like to see it. The pause Porunga makes could just as well be him contacting Goku by telepathy and Goku refusing to be teleported, just like Porunga says. And this still means nothing given the prior point debunks your entire argument.
And dragon's don't seek permissions to carry out the wishes. This is further evidenced by the fact that the same dragon transported everyone on planet Namek.
There would no point to using the word refuse if there wasn't some sort of interaction. That Porunga didn't bother asking for permission from much weaker characters doesn't mean he wouldn't necessarily need to get permission to transport a much stronger, clearly above his power, Goku.
To sum up, there's no actual proof Porunga actually tried to teleport Goku against his will and failed, and the fact that Goku had to exclude himself from being teleported away from Namek points that Porunga would have been successful on his attempt to do so.
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There are more people that disagrees with this, i will repeat it again: Polunga sensed Goku throught and understood that he did not wanted to return to earth that way or more likely he was training in the planet Yardrat and did not wanted to be interrupted.
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@Lazy Porunga is only 5-B, if he asked permission from stronger characters he would have had to ask Vegeta.
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- Thread starter
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"There would no point to using the word refuse if there wasn't some sort of interaction. That Porunga didn't bother asking for permission from much weaker characters doesn't mean he wouldn't necessarily need to get permission to transport a much stronger, clearly above his power, Goku."
Except if you read the top, there is one instance waiting to get your attention. When Porunga did the same to much stronger beings.
And for the last time, dragons don't operate this way. They don't ask permission. If something is beyond their power they flat out refuse to perform it. If something is within their power they flat out perform it.
Except if you read the top, there is one instance waiting to get your attention. When Porunga did the same to much stronger beings.
And for the last time, dragons don't operate this way. They don't ask permission. If something is beyond their power they flat out refuse to perform it. If something is within their power they flat out perform it.
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Well yeah, its RW through magic.
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@SomebodyData
Stronger characters doesn't necessarily mean characters just immediately stronger than him. There's a ceiling to what he can affect, Vegeta didn't reach it and Goku did. Simple as that. And that's only if he tried and failed, which there's no proof of.
@AKM sama
I read the top, it doesn't mean anything for reasons already explained by me and others. You keep ignoring how Goku had to ask to not be included in the mass teleport. Stop nitpicking and address the evidence against your claims.
Stronger characters doesn't necessarily mean characters just immediately stronger than him. There's a ceiling to what he can affect, Vegeta didn't reach it and Goku did. Simple as that. And that's only if he tried and failed, which there's no proof of.
@AKM sama
I read the top, it doesn't mean anything for reasons already explained by me and others. You keep ignoring how Goku had to ask to not be included in the mass teleport. Stop nitpicking and address the evidence against your claims.
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@AKM sama
Goku had to request for both Frieza and himself. And I didn't say Frieza was resistant. And even then it doesn't take away anything from the feat as Porunga tried and failed later on in the series.
This is not addressing it. This is pretending that it doesn't count because you say so. Remember you still have zero proof of Porunga actually trying to force a teleport on Goku and of Goku spontaneously developing a resistance in that short span of time.
Goku had to request for both Frieza and himself. And I didn't say Frieza was resistant. And even then it doesn't take away anything from the feat as Porunga tried and failed later on in the series.
This is not addressing it. This is pretending that it doesn't count because you say so. Remember you still have zero proof of Porunga actually trying to force a teleport on Goku and of Goku spontaneously developing a resistance in that short span of time.
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Goku admitted that he did not wanted to return to earth as he wanted to deal with Frieza. Goku was saved by a Yardrat, which he explained the Instant Transmission move. Goku wanted to learn the tecnique after recovering from the Frieza fight, which took him some time. After that he trained in order master said tecnique.
It's more than likely that Porunga could not transport Goku because he was training in order to learn said tecnique and did not wanted to be interrupted by being forced to earth.
It's more than likely that Porunga could not transport Goku because he was training in order to learn said tecnique and did not wanted to be interrupted by being forced to earth.
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@Lazy quite an assumption to make isn't it? They both are extremely stronger than Porunga, so a random power cap in between doesn't make sense. Not to mention, Porunga revived Ult. Gohan and Piccolo in the Buu Arc without asking them, so your assumption fails there too.
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@SomebodyData
Not at all. Do you have any evidence that Porunga is unable to affect anyone even slightly stronger than him instead of his powers simply stopping after a certain point?
The other side of the argument is assuming Porunga tried to forcefully teleport Goku and failed instead of contacting him like it's implied in the manga, and also adds a second assumption that in that case Goku has to have spontaneously developed a resistance that's not brought up again or adressed in the story itself instead of the simple "he's too strong for the dragon to affect with his wish" we already know as a limitation of wishing dragons.
As for Porunga reviving Gohan and Piccolo, I mentioned that the rules of what wishes work on stronger people and what wishes don't are nebulous because they are there for plot reasons, as seen with 18's example. It's entirely possible reviving someone was like 18's bomb and it's unrelated to their power.
Not at all. Do you have any evidence that Porunga is unable to affect anyone even slightly stronger than him instead of his powers simply stopping after a certain point?
The other side of the argument is assuming Porunga tried to forcefully teleport Goku and failed instead of contacting him like it's implied in the manga, and also adds a second assumption that in that case Goku has to have spontaneously developed a resistance that's not brought up again or adressed in the story itself instead of the simple "he's too strong for the dragon to affect with his wish" we already know as a limitation of wishing dragons.
As for Porunga reviving Gohan and Piccolo, I mentioned that the rules of what wishes work on stronger people and what wishes don't are nebulous because they are there for plot reasons, as seen with 18's example. It's entirely possible reviving someone was like 18's bomb and it's unrelated to their power.
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@Lazy
Your point that Porunga contacted Goku looks like a reach to me.
Anyone who follows DB knows that the dragon doesn't seek permission. They are there to grant the wish of the wish-maker and if they can do it, the do it instantly.
If they can't do it, they tell the wish-maker instantly.
"He refused" clearly suggests that Porunga tried but wasn't able to force him, and Goku said that he'll come back later. Going by Occam's razor this would mean Porunga contacted Goku after failing.
Your point that Porunga contacted Goku looks like a reach to me.
Anyone who follows DB knows that the dragon doesn't seek permission. They are there to grant the wish of the wish-maker and if they can do it, the do it instantly.
If they can't do it, they tell the wish-maker instantly.
"He refused" clearly suggests that Porunga tried but wasn't able to force him, and Goku said that he'll come back later. Going by Occam's razor this would mean Porunga contacted Goku after failing.
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@Lazy You can't disprove a negative. And that's not what I'm even saying, I'm saying Goku has a resistance not that Porunga stops working.
It's not really implied, "refused" can mean "resisted" like in Frisk's case. Second assumption?
Here's what I'm assuming:
Goku has resistance to teleportation because Porunga couldn't teleport him.
What you are:
Porunga's teleportation works on Low 4-C Vegeta but not Low 4-C Goku because of a power difference that's not even tiers apart. Or Porunga asks him due to his strength but doesn't in the Buu saga.
That's because you're making this more complicated than it actually is.
It's not really implied, "refused" can mean "resisted" like in Frisk's case. Second assumption?
Here's what I'm assuming:
Goku has resistance to teleportation because Porunga couldn't teleport him.
What you are:
Porunga's teleportation works on Low 4-C Vegeta but not Low 4-C Goku because of a power difference that's not even tiers apart. Or Porunga asks him due to his strength but doesn't in the Buu saga.
That's because you're making this more complicated than it actually is.
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@AKM sama
I disagree. Refused implies some sort of contact and Goku said no. Why he did so or why he didn't in other occasions is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
The facts are that there's zero proof of Porunga trying and failing to teleport him, and even if it there were proof of that there's zero proof of that being a resistance to teleporting, much less resistance to reality warping, instead of the canon fact that wishing dragons sometimes cannot affect some characters with their wishes if the target is sufficiently above them in terms of power, which wouldn't be a resistance at all, it would be a weakness of the wishing dragon.
I disagree. Refused implies some sort of contact and Goku said no. Why he did so or why he didn't in other occasions is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
The facts are that there's zero proof of Porunga trying and failing to teleport him, and even if it there were proof of that there's zero proof of that being a resistance to teleporting, much less resistance to reality warping, instead of the canon fact that wishing dragons sometimes cannot affect some characters with their wishes if the target is sufficiently above them in terms of power, which wouldn't be a resistance at all, it would be a weakness of the wishing dragon.
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@AKM depends if we consider Vegeta resisting mind manipulation due to its magical nature considering thats the only thing they have in common, but I reaaaally doubt it.
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@SomebodyData
Neither of us has any proof of where the point of "strong enough that Porunga cannot affect a character with certain wishes" starts. Your assumption on where it starts is as valid as mine.
And I disagree with you on "refusing" meaning resistance, and bringing another series into this means nothing. We're debating Dragon Ball, not Undertale. Ultimately, this is a matter of opinion, though, and it's not solid proof for either side as seen by multiple people disagreeing.
Here's what I'm assuming:
Goku has resistance to teleportation because Porunga couldn't teleport him.
What you are:
Porunga's teleportation works on Low 4-C Vegeta but not Low 4-C Goku because of a power difference that's not even tiers apart. Or Porunga asks him due to his strength but doesn't in the Buu saga.
No. You assume that Porunga tried and failed and that this is a resistance instead of another instance of wishing dragons being limited. No solid proof for either assumption.
I assume are that either the point of strength where wishes don't work is below Goku's level or that Porunga tried to ask him in that occasion. No solid proof for either assumption.
Neither of us has any proof of where the point of "strong enough that Porunga cannot affect a character with certain wishes" starts. Your assumption on where it starts is as valid as mine.
And I disagree with you on "refusing" meaning resistance, and bringing another series into this means nothing. We're debating Dragon Ball, not Undertale. Ultimately, this is a matter of opinion, though, and it's not solid proof for either side as seen by multiple people disagreeing.
Here's what I'm assuming:
Goku has resistance to teleportation because Porunga couldn't teleport him.
What you are:
Porunga's teleportation works on Low 4-C Vegeta but not Low 4-C Goku because of a power difference that's not even tiers apart. Or Porunga asks him due to his strength but doesn't in the Buu saga.
No. You assume that Porunga tried and failed and that this is a resistance instead of another instance of wishing dragons being limited. No solid proof for either assumption.
I assume are that either the point of strength where wishes don't work is below Goku's level or that Porunga tried to ask him in that occasion. No solid proof for either assumption.
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- Thread starter
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@Lazy
Any implication from the series where any dragon has ever stated that teleportation takes power gap into consideration?
Clearly these dragons always give reasons when they are unable to do something. But they never stated anything about the power gap while reviving beings. Same applies here.
Any implication from the series where any dragon has ever stated that teleportation takes power gap into consideration?
Clearly these dragons always give reasons when they are unable to do something. But they never stated anything about the power gap while reviving beings. Same applies here.
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