Reshiram vs Goku

[Sceptilespy]

5-B Forms Used. Saiyan Saga Goku (During fight with Vegeta)

Battle Takes place in the sky, but can go to ground if need be (or if that's where the battle ends up)

Speed equalized.

Reshiram- 7 (Cal, Landon Avery, Yobobojojo, Assault Waffle, TheWrightWay, Kiryu2012, glassman)

Goku- 0

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Namek Saga likely stomps.

But I should probably put Reshiram's power into perspective.

Primal Kyogre is 84 YT by only roaring.

Rayquaza in base casually above both, Primal Kyogre and it's equal in Primal Groudon.

Mega Rayquaza lolstomps it's base form.

Mega Rayquaza is equal to Deoxys who's equal to Mewtwo who's equal to Genesect.

Base Kyurem is superior to Genesect, presumably by a sizable amount.

Reshiram is superior to base Kyurem.

 

[Sceptilespy]

So would Saiyan Saga (During fight with Vegeta) be more fair, or is this fair as is?

 

[Theglassman12]

I think vegeta would be a better option in this fight.

 

[Sceptilespy]

It has now been edited

 

[Theglassman12]

I said vegeta, not goku. Not to mention goku has already have a lot of matches already.

 

[Sceptilespy]

I wanted it to be Goku in the first place. Vegeta and Goku are at the very least equal, with Vegeta probably being much stronger during their fight so it shouldn't make a huge difference.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright then. Goku should take this via sensing, Kaioken, being able to adapt quickly in battle, much better range, and solar flare.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Reshiram has planetary range and spams the ever living crap out of ranged attacks. Kaio Ken gets done in by Noble Roar, and due to the temporary aspect of KK, it's even worse, as when he reverts, he's even weaker than before. Solar Flare is potentially useful, but not when it's also temporary and Reshiram has Hyper Voice. Sensing is useless here given Reshiram's not a stealthy fighter. Being able to adapt quickly has the potential to be useful, but not with how versatile and experienced Reshiram is.

Also, AP advantage helps.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cal goku has been shown to use the Kaioken numerous times without tiring out, Especially Kaioken X3. I can argue that goku has versatile ways to use his ki to win his battles right? Like boosting himself to reach his opponents, and using ki blasts to distract his opponents.

Goku at this point is FAR above baseline.

 

[Sceptilespy]

Goku-1 (Theglassman12)

Reshiram-1? (Not sure if Cal "voted", rather then debunking glassman's reasons for voting.)

Inconclusive- 0

 

[Theglassman12]

His planetary range is with the weather.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lore says Goku takes great pain from KK and that it lasts a short time. And we've seen that happen before. Lore + showings > more showings.

That second thing is not really versatility... First thing counters itself with being temporary and by statistics reduction on Reshiram's part.

I don't want to go with how much Goku is above baseline, but he's still weaker than Reshiram.

 

[SomebodyData]

That would either mean he gained mastery or it depends on the context (Like how much he is exerting)

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah he takes great pain, but he can still use it for good chunks of the fight. If Kaioken was as deadly as the lore stated, then goku wouldn't be able to move after the beam struggle, but he was due to how tenacious he is and how much stamina he has.

Also how is he weaker than reshiram when he's stronger than plenty of people who are above baseline?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, Goku can still obviously operate, but he's still in a much worse condition than before, and that's what the lore states.

Because Primal Kyogre's roar alone is > Raditz. That's all I'm going to say.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do know that Raditz is far above baseline due to curb stomping piccolo right? And you do know that Goku has been in worse conditions than before, and he's still able to fight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No one in the Saiyan Saga, or even the Namek Saga for that matter, can release that amount of energy by simply roaring. Reshiram is superior to people who are superior to people who are equal to people who s***stomp people who s***stomp Primal Kyogre + Primal Groudon.

 

[Theglassman12]

And how strong is that exactly? Cause from what I've seen, it just makes him somewhat above baseline with that calc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. His casual output of energy by roaring is 87 Zettatons. Piccolo, using an actual attack, is 70 Zettatons. Goku is well above Piccolo. Reshiram is well above Kyogre. It's simple who's the stronger one. Heck, I'd argue that people weaker than Reshiram is stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku, because the amount of stomping anyone does in the Saiyan Saga isn't anywhere near the power needed for your roars alone to be 5-B.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do know that other 5-B characters in DBZ have been stomped by other 5-B characters right?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Of course I know that. Heck, I'm the one who upgraded them all to 5-B. None of it comes close to Primal Kyogre's casualness though. All of them put energy, however minimal, into stomping someone around Primal Kyogre's feat. Primal Kyogre's roar, and I think that's what you're missing, which is next to no energy expended, has a bigger feat.

 

[Theglassman12]

Energy that requires little to no struggle to use. Which is exactly what piccolo did when he blew up the moon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lol what? Piccolo very much exerted himself with his attack, in the fact that it was an attack.

 

[Theglassman12]

An attack that literally took him a couple of seconds to fire. If it was an actual attack from him, he would've spend time charging it up, but he didn't. It was a casual blast that he fired.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Throw a strong punch and see how much energy that takes compared to a yell. Also, if that wasn't a severe extrapolation on casualness I don't know what is.

 

[Theglassman12]

How does that change the fact that piccolo blowing up te moon was a casual attack from him? If he literally went all out on that moon, or used an actual attack, don't you think he'll take time to charge up the attack?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No. I don't. Do actual fighters charge up their attacks? If we don't want to use real life, did Goku beat King Piccolo, or Piccolo Jr with a charged attack? Did Trunks beat Merged Zamasu with a charged attack? Charge time means stronger, no doubt, but lol if that alone indicates how casual an uncharged attack is.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes they do, NUMEROUS TIMES throughout the series. And like I said, Piccolo didn't need to charge the attack at all to the extend that his explosive demon wave or special beam cannon.

Goku did beat King Piccolo with a charged up attack since he did say he's hitting him with everything he's got. And Piccolo jr. was worn out from the fight with goku, so he didn't need a charged up attack to take him down. Also the Zamasu thing was done by a spirit Bomb sword, something that ALSO needed to be charged since he got energy from the planet to charge up the attack.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, him having stronger attacks doesn't mean he was casual in the slightest.

Only the Zamasu one debunk was correct. If anything, the first one proves my point more, in that Goku didn't charge an attack yet still gave everything he had into that attack, which means that casualness isn't determined by charge time. And saying that Piccolo was weakened enough that a half-dead Goku only needed a casual headbutt to win is asinine.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, how does that make sense? Piccolo didn't even yell out the attack name. It was just a normal ki blast that he shot.

And how does it prove your point when like I said, he put everything to that attack, and goku was exhausted afterwards. If the same was happening with the moon incident, then Piccolo would've been exhausted from the shot he fired, but he isn't exhausted, he just went to gohan shortly afterwards like it was nothing.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

...and? It's still something that was meant to destroy.

Because he didn't charge. I'm not at all saying that Piccolo can't consistently output that amount on energy, but it's not on the same level of casualness at all.

 

[Theglassman12]

It doesn't change the fact that Piccolo wasn't going all out.

How is it not casual at all when I told you for the past 5 messages that Piccolo didn't get tired out from that attack, and the fact that it was a simple ki blast that he fired, NOT an actual attack that needs a lot of charging time?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because the two aren't interrelated. Not getting tired after doing something doesn't always mean casual, let alone on the level of roaring. The amount of instances of casualness we'd have to give to people befitting this is immense. Throw your hardest punch at a pillow. Did you get tired? No.

 

[Kepekley23]

Passing by to say that "roaring" is a completely unquantifiable level of casual-ness.

Or else we're going to say Dialga's Roar of Time is "casual"

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Roar of Time is an attack though. At best, it's Primordial Sea, which is passive.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Roar of Time is casual.

 

[Sceptilespy]

Reminder, since I saw kaio-ken being used as an argument earlier, in addition to stuff like Noble roar, he can use protect and toxic to stall for time. Kaio-ken is probably Goku's worst move for a fight like this.

 

[Kepekley23]

Kyogre's roar is also an attack, that's why it has AP in the first place.

The problem is, you can easily make the same argument for Goku:

Weighted Piccolo is 70 zettatons with a beam that he can fire in seconds.

Weakened Raditz is strong enough to completely destroy Unweighted Goku, who is slightly stronger than Unweighted Piccolo, with casual attacks. His full power is far stronger than his weakened state.

Piccolo (Post-Training) is easily far, far stronger than Raditz, since he 1-shotted a Raditz-level opponent

Gohan (Masenko) is stated to be even stronger than Piccolo (Post-Training). His Masenko got easily knocked back by Nappa (pre-power up)

Goku is strong enough to easily stomp Nappa (Pre-Power Up) and he can also stalemate Nappa (Calm), who is far stronger than before.

He can easily become 2 to 3 times stronger.

See?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Saying a roar is casual is a fairly baseless thing to say.