Removing History and Temporal erasure from High-Godly

[AKM sama]

But is important, becouse we are literally debating how the ability should work, and which characters should get and which not, we are debating the criteria.

This thread is for determining the standards of High-Godly regen. Once that is done, you can debate which characters would be affected later in a separate thread.

You can always ask questions with a general case, like "will high-godly be given to a character that was a timeline but erased and people still remember them" or something like that. This thread is for ironing out the ability, not a particular verse.

And again, avoid cluttering this thread with that so that staff members can reply without getting distracted and lost.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I'll bring the discussion where it belongs.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think we need to clarify anything, we might just have to look at what pages shouldn't have it.

Well, there is current confusion for Zamasu in this regard, so I would prefer if we clarify our standards at least.

High Godly is coming back from absolutely nothing on a physical or spiritual level. If someone has an anchor, we remove their rating.

Actually, that is our definition for Mid-Godly. High-Godly currently requires temporals or/and conceptual, and/or even narrative destruction as well.

Sailor Moon might be a sketchy case. I believe changing the past in that verse doesn't affect the future completely, but I'll have to check.

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry for commenting here, but I think we should just put people who are erased from history but still remembered, back to Mid-Godly, and properly explain how the ability works for a solid High Godly rating.

That sounds reasonable, imo.

Agreed.

 

[ByAsura]

Given what God900 said, that seems fine. Though, I don't think we need to clarify what we define as someone's history, more describe what actually falls into the borders of High-Godly (eg. they can't have anchors, and can't be remembered en masse if they're erased from time-space).

I say en masse specifically because obviously there's atemporal characters (like characters in DC remembering the Crisis on Infinite Earths), or Doctor Who logic where the characters manipulating time-space may retain their memories. Sometimes, however, those memories can allow these characters to be resurrected.

As for living time-spaces, it's entirely verse dependent and should still fall under the same criteria.

• Was a truly fundamental aspect(s) of their being (such as the concept of physical laws) erased?
• Were they erased from history to the point where characters can't remember them rather than just being deleted in the present?
• If they have a soul or spiritual/astral existence, was that erased? It'd still apply regardless (they're time-space, after all), unless they specifically had a higher level of being that allowed them to survive.
• Do they have an anchor or driving force that resurrected them/allowed them to resurrect? If so, they aren't High Godly. Evil Ernie, who had an incorporeal form to survive the complete erasure and recreation of his universe, is a good example.

I did mean to say nothing on a temporal or conceptual level. My mistake.

The Sailor Moon thing was addressed. It's fine.

 

[Teezar]

Let me say something, if someone is erased from.history would the person still be remembered? Cause if the person is remembered then his history not truly erased. But if someone whose history was truly erased regenerated then I guess high godly is fine

I agree with pain.

 

[Executor_N0]

As I said before, I understand the levels of Regeneration as how much "you" can restore "you" to your "whole" state of "being". When discussing High-Godly and my understanding of it as "regenerating from a state of nothing at all levels" that would need to discuss what "you" even mean, and this discussion on temporal or conceptual destruction is a good example of not really understanding what that means.

Because, sometimes you can really say that someone has regenerated from nothing at all levels without the need to talk about time, because it might be possible that “time” was never a thing that was part of said being “existence”.

That in fact is a thing in most worldviews that talk about a metaphysical existence outside the physical body, the limitation of time and space is a thing only for your false, limited, physical body (The soul is, therefore, eternal. And talking about eternal as really meaning "beyond time" as in most of those worldviews, not the corrupted meaning of eternal that somehow tries to fit it into the existence of physical time). To think that showing that the metaphysical existence erasure would need to show an effect on time, would mean that it’s somehow influenced by time, when that breaks the whole meaning of what that metaphysical thing means (That could happen, of course, but this is an example of why it's not a necessity if we have evidence that a worldview doesn't work with that).

Let's go back to the example that I gave about an existence that was only physical without any kind of metaphysical part to it, now think that it has some kind of metaphysical aspect, but both can be independent of each other. That is, they can be "the same '', but the soul can act as its own being outside the body, and is simply putting an "influence" over the physical body, but if there was no soul at all the body could have done the same. If the soul is outside of time and the erasure of the soul meant that erasure of all the influence of the soul in the ´physical world would also disappear

However since the body and the soul were never the same "being" and were simply recognized as the "same", that means that even after the soul was erased, the existence of "someone" that did "some things" in the timeline would still happen because the body could do all the things that it did before, but without a soul. And then you can have everything in-between of this example and my first one. You could have soul and body being able to act mostly independent of each other, but if the soul is removed, the body kind of die, but if the timeline is restarted the body would act its own way through the new timeline until it got to the point when the soul was removed and the body would stop without an explanation.

As you can see, the real question about High-Godly depends on what you consider makes up the existence of someone. If the temporal existence of someone is a necessary part of its whole existence, then affecting that would be necessary for High-Godly. If it isn't, but a metaphysical existence beyond the timestream is, then affecting that metaphysical existence is what would be needed. Sometimes someone has both aspects, but one is the one that really matters, or sometimes both matter.

It'll all depend on how the worldview of a particular work of fiction describes what "existence of being" really means. Sometimes we'll have whole essays about that and we can be very sure about the rules of what makes up a "Being", sometimes we'll have only vague statements that we need to make sense of all of that.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

That make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you suggest that we should do here from a practical perspective Executor?

I personally think that ByAsura's latest suggestions seem to make sense.

What do other staff members here think?

 

[Vietthai96]

while this is a staff thread, and i'm need to say sorry because i'm intruding on this thread, because this thread somehow is the result of DBH Fused Zamasu revision about High Godly regen, and as a DB supporter i want to present my opinion which i also posted in this thread about DBH Fused Zamasu

I disagree, and my point is:

So what about High Godly regen from history erasure, it is erasure on Causality level, Causality is the cause and effect (which everyone know), your past is the cause and the present is the effect, and in turn the present is the cause and future is the effect. That mean History erasure is erase you to the level where you not even exist across the era from the past to present, to future, which erase the entire causality and fate of one person across time, make him never exist, it is a watered down version of narrative, plot erasure where you erase a character across the plot of a story, make that character never exist before. thus in turn affect other character memory, because...well..after the erasure other characters will be like never met the guy, he/she is not a part of history (or the plot, narrative). So when you regen from this kind of erasure, this is a very insane regen (which i think is regen from non-existence state)

Regen from History Erasure is legit High Godly, problem is we need to add a better explaination on high godly section, especially the history erasure part

 

[Tarang123]

while this is a staff thread, and i'm need to say sorry because i'm intruding on this thread, because this thread somehow is the result of DBH Fused Zamasu revision about High Godly regen, and as a DB supporter i want to present my opinion which i also posted in this thread about DBH Fused Zamasu

I disagree, and my point is:

Regen from History Erasure is legit High Godly, problem is we need to add a better explaination on high godly section, especially the history erasure part

thing is, Zamasu wasn't erased from all of history, just a single timeline. It's like saying that I erased someone along with their entire universe. Them regenerating doesn't make it High Godly regeneration.

 

[Vietthai96]

thing is, Zamasu wasn't erased from all of history, just a single timeline. It's like saying that I erased someone along with their entire universe. Them regenerating doesn't make it High Godly regeneration.

Single timeline is enough, problem is the detail, as he doesn't get erased on causality level, the guy just get erased physically and spiritually, also this is derail, so take that to other thread

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Rather late to this, but, regardless:

As you can see, the real question about High-Godly depends on what you consider makes up the existence of someone. If the temporal existence of someone is a necessary part of its whole existence, then affecting that would be necessary for High-Godly. If it isn't, but a metaphysical existence beyond the timestream is, then affecting that metaphysical existence is what would be needed. Sometimes someone has both aspects, but one is the one that really matters, or sometimes both matter.

That's pretty much my view on it. Given the whole point of High-Godly is returning even after every single aspect of your existence is erased, what exactly this entails would obviously vary from verse to verse, so much so that the current requirements only specify that one needs to regenerate from the destruction of body, mind and soul, "along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence," which their underlying concept is just a possible example of.

I don't really understand the point regarding Acausality, either, since based on the definition above, "history" in this case would refer not only to past states, but future ones, too, which is something that could feasibly happen in a great many deal of verses (See: Any story where time travel to and from the future is possible.) In that case, Acausality wouldn't really help you.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

Thank you for the reply. So what, if anything, do you think that we should modify in our official definition wording for high-godly regeneration?

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you suggest that we should do here from a practical perspective Executor?

I personally think that ByAsura's latest suggestions seem to make sense.

What do other staff members here think?

Also...

 

[Teezar]

Existence Erasure at a conceptual level and Regeneration from it is what please?

 

[Antvasima]

Probably High-Godly as far as I am aware, as long as a character was completely physically and spiritually erased as well. Otherwise it would get contradictory and complicated.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I agree. Retroactive erasure shouldn't qualify.

Hop agrees with this only so far.

 

[Antvasima]

I would greatly appreciate further staff help with reaching a constructive conclusion here.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’ve already said my piece. If we need to remove some characters’ justification for high godly if they don’t qualify then go for it, I don’t know any characters that wouldn’t qualify for high godly.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate feedback regarding ByAsura's suggestions, and further clarifications from @Ultima_Reality and @Executor_N0 .

 

[Catpija]

Disagree

 

[Antvasima]

Given what God900 said, that seems fine. Though, I don't think we need to clarify what we define as someone's history, more describe what actually falls into the borders of High-Godly (eg. they can't have anchors, and can't be remembered en masse if they're erased from time-space).

I say en masse specifically because obviously there's atemporal characters (like characters in DC remembering the Crisis on Infinite Earths), or Doctor Who logic where the characters manipulating time-space may retain their memories. Sometimes, however, those memories can allow these characters to be resurrected.

As for living time-spaces, it's entirely verse dependent and should still fall under the same criteria.

• Was a truly fundamental aspect(s) of their being (such as the concept of physical laws) erased?
• Were they erased from history to the point where characters can't remember them rather than just being deleted in the present?
• If they have a soul or spiritual/astral existence, was that erased? It'd still apply regardless (they're time-space, after all), unless they specifically had a higher level of being that allowed them to survive.
• Do they have an anchor or driving force that resurrected them/allowed them to resurrect? If so, they aren't High Godly. Evil Ernie, who had an incorporeal form to survive the complete erasure and recreation of his universe, is a good example.

I did mean to say nothing on a temporal or conceptual level. My mistake.

The Sailor Moon thing was addressed. It's fine.

As you can see, the real question about High-Godly depends on what you consider makes up the existence of someone. If the temporal existence of someone is a necessary part of its whole existence, then affecting that would be necessary for High-Godly. If it isn't, but a metaphysical existence beyond the timestream is, then affecting that metaphysical existence is what would be needed. Sometimes someone has both aspects, but one is the one that really matters, or sometimes both matter.

It'll all depend on how the worldview of a particular work of fiction describes what "existence of being" really means. Sometimes we'll have whole essays about that and we can be very sure about the rules of what makes up a "Being", sometimes we'll have only vague statements that we need to make sense of all of that.

Rather late to this, but, regardless:


That's pretty much my view on it. Given the whole point of High-Godly is returning even after every single aspect of your existence is erased, what exactly this entails would obviously vary from verse to verse, so much so that the current requirements only specify that one needs to regenerate from the destruction of body, mind and soul, "along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence," which their underlying concept is just a possible example of.

I don't really understand the point regarding Acausality, either, since based on the definition above, "history" in this case would refer not only to past states, but future ones, too, which is something that could feasibly happen in a great many deal of verses (See: Any story where time travel to and from the future is possible.) In that case, Acausality wouldn't really help you.

I think that these seem to be the most relevant points.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913

This is a quite important wiki policy thread, so I would appreciate your continued help here.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Seems fine

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems okay

 

[Antvasima]

There are somewhat different takes on this, as I quoted above, so further elaboration would be very appreciated,

 

[Vietthai96]

Regen from History Erasure is legit High Godly, problem is we need to add a better explaination on high godly section, especially the history erasure part

Well idk this thread get a bump, but this is my point

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I pretty much agree with ByAsura.

However I do not have an idea on how to better explain it since it's pretty much going come down to how the verse treats "a characters complete existence".

 

[Therefir]

I also agree with the removal.

 

[Theglassman12]

Pretty sure “being erased across history” is self explanatory. Do we really need to explain what the hell that means beyond “your past present and future no longer exists”?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Agreed with Executor and Ultima.

 

[GyroNutz]

I think that these seem to be the most relevant points.

I agree that it should be a case-by-case basis

 

[Duedate8898]

Looking at it myself, I think Ultima's idea is the best way to look at it.

High Godly is supposed to be regenerating from the totality of your existence being removed, what counts as the totality of someone will differ depending on the verse. If in a verse ones totality is treated as involving their past, present, and potential future then regenerating after that is gone should allow you to qualify for High Godly. If it's not, then we don't use that as a way to justify someone possessing HG.

Simply put, it's a case-by-case thing, but temporal erasure should be one of the conditions we accept for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So does anybody here have any suggestions for how we should reword our official wiki definitions/descriptions of High-Godly Regeneration in an improved manner then?

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really? Aside from temporal erasure, which may or may not be just history erasure, it’s self explanatory.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop doesn't see any errors or conflicts in this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regardless if we use ByAsura's or Ultima's/Executor's solution, we need to improve on our specifications.