Removing Beyond-Dimensional Existence from a few pages

[Jozaysmith?]

If God is shown encompassing and dwarfing all the other things, then you certainly have a better case for Type 2. Where exactly is the evidence of that, though, besides that graph?

Yeah

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 2 ; He is a singular Existence, The primordial Will that exist as and separate from Everything, the one that is all and the all that is one yet is the only thing that exist [11][17])

Existing outside The cycle of cause and effect which exist as the opposite side of Time

The first scan is just proof he exist outside everything while also dwarfing them, the one proof he does dwarfs them is

In other words, he exist everywhere and nowhere while not existing at the same time

Everything is as his "Will" wills it, in this same vein what it means is-overcome anything and everything with a thought

Which again explains this

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is how Lyria absorbs Primal beast.
As her role is to collect Sky-Essence manifested by giving it Astral power to give it form.
To have an understanding of the makeup of primal beasts. Here Loki attempted to turn Captain into a primal beast using the concept of an Axis that runs through infinite worlds and infinite stories.
This is the currently accepted HDE of primal beast

• Higher-Dimensional Existence: Primal Beast are entities reborn to a higher-dimensional existence by the Astrals[13] and they exist in a higher position than the Sky-realm's plane.[14] Their Data caused Ellis to have a Data Flow[15] that has a hyperdimensional perception[16] and sees 3-dimensional space as flat[17] and his influence can manifest physically.[18] Primarchs, Primal Beast and Astrals who hail from Astral Realm can also plainly see distortion unlike Ordinary Sky-dwellers whom Beelzebub considers Infinitesimal[19].

The last scan has a bit of tidbits about dimensional boundary (not "Boundary" as Estalucia) as well.
Lucilius is imprisoned in Space between dimensions (Which is the Canvass as Lucio explained but different from Crimson Horizon) with the remains of Etemenanki.

I suppose your point then was basically showing "Otherworlders are way above beings who have been shown as higher-dimensional," then? Not too relevant in that case, unfortunately.

If I may have a bit more time. This wouldn't technically affect their tiers? Because I only used these BDE factors for BDE and not to try to use it as a Quantitative superiority for another tier (except the whole verbiage of Violet Knight about it not being strength or weakness)

Well, Type 2 BDE and qualitative superiority go hand in hand (Provided the latter derives from your ontology, that is, instead of just "Can punch really hard"). You can't exactly have the former without the latter. What exactly is the reasoning for qualitative superiority that's currently applied to the profiles? That might salvage Type 2.

Dream literally has made his own Creation with the Genesis Egg mentioned in Sandman: Universe which was first introduced in the Books of Magic something that the Glory even found surprising. Not to mention Morpheus with just a few thousand dreams make to remake all of Existence. Dream embodies something greater than time and space given that same concept can shape gods and produce realms greater than the concept of time, space, causality, etc.

They never truly went rogue with their power but it outscales all the gods including beings like Azazel, Odin, and all pantheons. They should Type 2 BDE since they all transcends the Material Plane which houses said concepts not to mention each Endless embodies their concept to the fullest that reaches all the way to the entire Totality of Creation. I think it’s reasonable they are Type 2. There’s more to suggest Endless > Jin En Mok. On several occasion other than Yahweh, they far are greater than anyone in the Cosmos and are the highest order beyond the gods. The Dream of the First Cosmos heavily suggest something to beyond much things and all Dreams’ scale to each other.

First bit is true, but the catch is that Dream doesn't have access to this sort of power normally, since he doesn't command all the potential power of his concept (Said concept being something I did accept as having Type 2, already). So much so that recreating the universe was an immensely painful and tiring process for him. I wouldn't put that in the same league as the Jin En Mok destroying Creation simply as a side-effect of regaining their real forms. So BDE off of scaling to them is out.

That aside: There really is no evidence, to speak of, that the material world is the exclusive container of time and space. (Of course, in my view, the City of Stars existing "above the real" would already constitute evidence pointing towad that, but we don't accept such things as indicative of BDE as of yet, hence R>F characters aren't listed as having it automatically)

In other words, he exist everywhere and nowhere while not existing at the same time
Which again explains this

"Everything moves according to his will" is only indicative of a difference in AP. A difference in AP is, of course, a necessary condition for Type 2, but it's not a sufficient one.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

"Everything moves according to his will" is only indicative of a difference in AP. A difference in AP is, of course, a necessary condition for Type 2, but it's not a sufficient one.

Shouldn't with all this giving information be a slight bit alright for type 2?

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Ultima_Reality So what about characters with this description (from their tier), should it be BDE type 1 or 2? The character I mentioned has BDE even though it is listed as type 1, or are we only evaluating characters with type 2 already?

Yang Qi (Dragon Talisman)

As if the borders between reality and fiction were dissolving, Yang Qi found himself inside the story of Dragon Talisman. Already aware of his purpose; to become the protagonist of this era through devouring all others, including Gu Chensha. Tier: 1-A | 1-A Key: Yang Qi | Teen In White Name...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Low Outerverse level (As the fusion of several protagonists, he gained an infinite lifespan and transcended the very concepts of size, Space and time)

Gu Chensha put aside the long river of fate, moved his body, and came to a place that no one can reach.
This is a spaceless and timeless abyss exists beyond the Heaven
This space is infinitely huge and vast, and it seems to be the source of everything. The chaos back then was huge enough, but in front of this place, it is nothing at all.
This place can no longer be described as big, because it seems that there is no concept of size, nor the concept of time and space.
There is a terrible will here and there.
In the central area, a group of things that are many times larger than the human world are wriggling. This thing is neither matter, nor energy, nor non-matter, nor non-energy. Chapter 993

All of a sudden, the boy in white is the master of the multiverse, the real master, his body is countless times bigger than Gu Chensha, and he is "big" in the true sense.
In fact, after reaching the current state, the word size has no meaning to Gu Chensha and the boy in white, but now, in the eyes of everyone, the boy in white is bigger than Gu Chensha, which means that his strength surpasses that of Gu Chensha. Chapter 1148

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shouldn't with all this giving information be a slight bit alright for type 2?

Not really, no. (You have a slightly better case if the diagram there is official, but, still not sufficient)

@Ultima_Reality So what about characters with this description (from their tier), should it be BDE type 1 or 2? The character I mentioned has BDE even though it is listed as type 1, or are we only evaluating characters with type 2 already?

Yang Qi (Dragon Talisman)

As if the borders between reality and fiction were dissolving, Yang Qi found himself inside the story of Dragon Talisman. Already aware of his purpose; to become the protagonist of this era through devouring all others, including Gu Chensha. Tier: 1-A | 1-A Key: Yang Qi | Teen In White Name...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That's Type 2, yeah.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Not really, no. (You have a slightly better case if the diagram there is official, but, still not sufficient)

So is there any vivid explanation on this BDE2 system, is it changed or is it still the Same?, and with all this reasoning what does he qualify for?, Higher type 1?, according to type 1 it said being immune to space and time, and exiting it willingly
God doesn't necessarily exist at all, outside the range of everything which consist of

• space spirit (entirety of space across all of time)
• Time spirit (entirety of time across all of time and space)-a 4th dimensional entity in this case a self embodiment

And like i described, God exist (Naturally outside all of this, and still very much superior naturally)
Its funny that they are several BDE1 characters in the series already, which even a staff agreed to not too long ago-(just that we have to wait), God is Like an impossible to reach entity-well by the characters and all, and shown in most cases even by this BDE1 beings -(not yet updated) to be unreachable, as shown in that first scan i sent not too long ago

---

So the Question is if there's no new requirement or so, or if there's an argument am missing here in the BDE2 giving, the post i sent is also originally made, but you mentioned you need more feat that correctly relates, which is very scanty(few)- the series is far from over so maybe next volume there might be more; but i still need any reason. If there's a change or am not sending you something

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So is there any vivid explanation on this BDE2 system, is it changed or is it still the Same?

It hasn't changed at all, no. Type 2 BDE is and has always been about characters who lack spatiotemporal features being superior to them in ontology. Not just characters who lack spacetime and also have the raw power to blow up spacetime. All of what you showed only amounts to Type 1 (Especially given the fact that, if God had Type 2, he'd have been rated at Tier 1 from the start)

 

[Jozaysmith?]

It hasn't changed at all, no. Type 2 BDE is and has always been about characters who lack spatiotemporal features being superior to them in ontology. Not just characters who lack spacetime and also have the raw power to blow up spacetime. All of what you showed only amounts to Type 1 (Especially given the fact that, if God had Type 2, he'd have been rated at Tier 1 from the start)

So what explanation am i lacking

 

[Jozaysmith?]

It hasn't changed at all, no. Type 2 BDE is and has always been about characters who lack spatiotemporal features being superior to them in ontology. Not just characters who lack spacetime and also have the raw power to blow up spacetime. All of what you showed only amounts to Type 1 (Especially given the fact that, if God had Type 2, he'd have been rated at Tier 1 from the start)

Also i tried that tier 1 thing but maybe it needs more evidence

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So what explanation am i lacking

Something that demonstrates the "superiority" in question isn't just a matter of raw power, but something tied to the character's very existence, instead. The difference between Type 1 and Type 2 is that a character with Type 1 BDE has their nature be simply incomparable to spacetime structures, due to lacking size. It's neither above or below them, just different in nature.

A character with Type 2 BDE, however, has this non-dimensional nature indeed be something comparable to dimensional structures, more specifically by being "larger" than them. So it doesn't simply lack size but indeed is above size. So, for instance, if you have a void of nonexistence described as having no dimensions, or as "beyond spatial dimensions," and then it's portrayed as something far more vast than dimensional structures (By encompassing and surrounding them as a container, for example), that's Type 2.

 

[Accelerator]

Something that demonstrates the "superiority" in question isn't just a matter of raw power, but something tied to the character's very existence, instead. The difference between Type 1 and Type 2 is that a character with Type 1 BDE has their nature be simply incomparable to spacetime structures, due to lacking size. It's neither above or below them, just different in nature.

A character with Type 2 BDE, however, has this non-dimensional nature indeed be something comparable to dimensional structures, more specifically by being "larger" than them. So it doesn't simply lack size but indeed is above size. So, for instance, if you have a void of nonexistence described as having no dimensions, or as "beyond spatial dimensions," and then it's portrayed as something far more vast than dimensional structures (By encompassing and surrounding them as a container, for example), that's Type 2.

If a character is stated to not be bound by the concept of dimensions or better yet dimensionality, would that be Type 2?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

If a character is stated to not be bound by the concept of dimensions or better yet dimensionality, would that be Type 2?

Depends on the context. If this is a bare hypothetical, then I wouldn't say so, no. It'd certainly be good supporting evidence but not the main meat of the argument. Certainly, Type 1 BDE characters are already "unbound" by dimensions, for instance.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Depends on the context. If this is a bare hypothetical, then I wouldn't say so, no. It'd certainly be good supporting evidence but not the main meat of the argument. Certainly, Type 1 BDE characters are already "unbound" by dimensions, for instance.

So if "time and space" was like a mini aspect of someone, wouldn't that be BDE2, like entirety of time and space being their shadow- we don't have that, just saying incase

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Depends on the context. If this is a bare hypothetical, then I wouldn't say so, no. It'd certainly be good supporting evidence but not the main meat of the argument. Certainly, Type 1 BDE characters are already "unbound" by dimensions, for instance.

Are you going to make a thread fir transduality similar to what you did to BDE type 2?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

First bit is true, but the catch is that Dream doesn't have access to this sort of power normally, since he doesn't command all the potential power of his concept (Said concept being something I did accept as having Type 2, already). So much so that recreating the universe was an immensely painful and tiring process for him. I wouldn't put that in the same league as the Jin En Mok destroying Creation simply as a side-effect of regaining their real forms. So BDE off of scaling to them is out.

That aside: There really is no evidence, to speak of, that the material world is the exclusive container of time and space. (Of course, in my view, the City of Stars existing "above the real" would already constitute evidence pointing towad that, but we don't accept such things as indicative of BDE as of yet, hence R>F characters aren't listed as having it automatically)
".

Yeah, that’s the point of seeing it like that. However, saying it tired him is something to not under look since he remade all Creation. This includes all realms and worlds across everything, and that includes the Silver City which is R>F over the Universe(Material World).

Not to mention the whole concept of Dream across all Creation is one singular idea. Morpheus is one said aspect of it, but Endless Night makes it clear that they are what they represent. The limit falls on Morpheus, not Dream itself, nor in its entirety. That would still make Morpheus and by extension the Endless as BDE Type 2. Their form if not careful can deform universes and they really leave planes entirely. What you’re missing with Jin En Mok is their state which is Void and without form which needs the original connection to the Void they float. That makes them “bigger” in a sense than say Demiurgic Archangels and Endless but it’s very evident the Archangels transcends the Silver City and Creation as a whole. The Endless(Point of View) represent conceptually on all levels of Creation. I mean they look as they seem only to appear to immortal and the Material World is very debased when compared to other things since Cherubs aren’t suppose to look like golems and be bound to any extension of concept such as time or space something Lucifer Will into existence and the Endless predate all versions of reality that was remade countless amount of times by dreams of human.

They are the highest order and older and more powerful than gods like Odin that could make a realm like Asgard and Ragnarok as a gift to Morpheus whose also above Lord Chaos, Shinto Gods, A Hell Lord, and are the force of Creation second only to God(Archangels are special case they made Creation thus they don’t count).

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

May I really quick ask why Caliborn and Calliope are listed in Unjustified? Their BDE only applies to their 1-A keys I'm pretty sure, and Lord English (Caliborn) has stuff like being detached completely from the narrative of reality, putting him above Paradox Space, and being stronger than Hussie who created it in the first place (which is why I'm guessing he has it, and other characters stronger than him like Ult. Dirk and Alt. Calliope have it.)

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I suppose your point then was basically showing "Otherworlders are way above beings who have been shown as higher-dimensional," then? Not too relevant in that case, unfortunately.

In a sense, yeah, they can also basically rewrite them off from existence as they please or destroy them in the case of Metatron, who didn't even have the chance to wake up and lost his physical form after simply falling in Crimson Horizon.

Well, Type 2 BDE and qualitative superiority go hand in hand (Provided the latter derives from your ontology, that is, instead of just "Can punch really hard"). You can't exactly have the former without the latter. What exactly is the reasoning for qualitative superiority that's currently applied to the profiles? That might salvage Type 2.

Since the former tiering system equates quantitative and qualitative. both reasoning were used to support each other
separating them is difficult for me due to how they feel like a blur to me now and I only know higher infinities or Encompassing of Brane
So I'll list down the general idea of how the tiering goes then separate those I think are something of ontology or beyond dimension.
But of course, if none qualifies I'll just go ahead and agree to changing it to Type 1 then and see if anything changes when they update the story about entering Estalucia

Spoiler: Quantitative

Orologia can store physical simulations. inside his personality. Said simulation contains the Astral Realm, Sky-realm, and Otherworldly realm. But seeing how these can affect him I doubt this qualifies for qualitative superiority in terms of dreams/fictional and more so that he's just so large that simulations that involved these large realms are only as big as his personality and seeing there is an overflow this one falls under DontalkTD sample of limited capacity. (6D or possibly 7D)


The way this goes is that. Sky-realm is the assumed regular universe. Above it is the Astral Realm which exists on a higher stratum. (3D+time)

Between Astral and Sky-realm exists the Dimension of Precipice, which contains the Chronicles of Sky-realm's history in a river. where one can reverse causality or as Cosmos wishes can also strike someone from history. These are only supporting evidence as the main evidence is mostly as I explained earlier how the vestige of Astral Power/Primal Beast is already a higher dimensional existence even in their physical or astral power form that it causes someone who can see the entirety of spacetime as data have a data overflow. And since this place is subject to its own time separate from Sky-realm due to how Sky-realm History is distinct from Astral-Realm History it is only right to assume that this place being built to try being identical to Sky-realm would have its own time.
Furthermore, it is shown that some primal beasts to some extent can simulate the reality of Sky-realm in their dreams while also unaffected by it (4 spatial dimensions + time)

Otherworld/Crimson Horizon as explained is not just strong but also contains timelines from every dimension and as they are always superior to any dimension they enter and can freely tamper with the time and space within it as they are well beyond it. they were rated as another tier above mostly due to the description of being transcendental to space and time and being something that requires a power of another dimension of equivalent if not superior to harm it. (6D unknown if just spatial or has time as well something close to Orologia. But Orologia can resist them). Normally they are powerless unless they gain a Vessel that connects them to reality.
furthermore, they cannot sustain reality on their own as reality collapses when nothing is left except for them

Etemenanki is a structure that is neither Worldly nor Otherworldly and encompasses Both Providence and Chaos but neither and could resist the encroachment of chaos should the boundary between these 2 spheres be destroyed It also has measurements that contradict its exterior. I used to assume its superiority to the Otherworld aside from the Otherworld by itself cannot reach it. this works more like a Brane cosmology of some sorts

There is a Divine Realm but it hasn't been evaluated yet and hasn't been fully explained yet within the story.
I could make an argument for the Unchanging Principles that not even the Omnipotent can change and that they dictate even the nature of Omnipotent to be something that cannot be overtaken but it is honestly a loose one so I'll just wait and see till Anniv event or main story update

TLDR: Skyrealm 3D+time | Astral Realm - 4D+time (Low 1-C)| Otherworld/Crimson Horizon - Contains timeline of every dimension without order + Superior and can freely manipulate time and space (higher into Low 1-C) | Orologia being able to Contain them as physical simulation mass and can add more by using the Power of the Boundary to simulate more simulation (1-C) | Boundary being equated to Orologia's feat and various statements about beyond the bounds of dimension etc.

TLDR : The "Qualitative Superiority" that is used doesn't seem to fit the entire Qualitative Superiority and falls more on the limited types such as Seeing something as a dream but still being affected by it. or it only exists in their mind/personality but they can still be overwhelmed by it. Arcarum although unaffected by their dreams still exists in reality which goes against what R>F or dream superiority would

So Downgrade to BDE Type 1 for Beelzebub should be fine

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Depends on the context. If this is a bare hypothetical, then I wouldn't say so, no. It'd certainly be good supporting evidence but not the main meat of the argument. Certainly, Type 1 BDE characters are already "unbound" by dimensions, for instance.

Does this count

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

If a character or something lacks the type 1 conceptions of Space and Time, and is not affected in any way even with the destruction of said conceptions, and existed before and after the end of these conceptions
Can that being or something be Type 1? Given Type 1 doesn't necessarily require superiority.

 

[Antvasima]

So what did Ultima decide that we should do here?

 

[deonment]

On the topic of 3930, it's BDE 2 is not only due to lacking dimensions altogether but also due to sharing its nature with 3000 and IS NOT, so it should still retain its BDE 2

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

So what did Ultima decide that we should do here?

 

[Everything12]

@Ultima_Reality
This thread still exists.

 

[Antvasima]

So what did Ultima decide that we should do here?

@Ultima_Reality
This thread still exists.

@Ultima_Reality