Relooking at Mario's stats

[Antvasima]

I would still appreciate input from @Dino_Ranger_Black @DarkDragonMedeus and @Ryukama regarding what we should do here.

 

[Starsprite53]

Yoshi's Wooly Games are just aesthetic but with the recent Paper Mario games, the world being made of paper is literally an essential plot point and a massive game mechanic.

You are using false equivalencies.

How its false equivalencies when yoshi's latest games have the same thing
Different artstyles isn't a good argument really

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I got a translation for the 64 statement



As in the link Toad says: Sir Koopa/Bowser used power star to create kingdom of monsters inside walls and paintings. Recapture the stars!

This quote alone implies that Bowser didn't create the worlds of the paintings with the power stars, but more used them to take over the worlds within the paintings and create the monsters within the paintings or use the magic of the power stars turn them to his side

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Hagane.

 

[Cropfist]

Speaking of splitting up Mario, Paper Mario needs to be split-up again. You can't use the Miyamoto statement that is literally about how Mario has no canon or timeline like Zelda and ignore the entire premise of Paper Jam.

I agree with this, but it's a whole other issue in of itself.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

for the record im not even against cosmic mario necessarily, i just do not like starry sky feats especially when like all of these have several problems with them

also about that translation, we did kind of already have the information we needed to conclude that, so again tbh i dont really like that the downgrade side had to go through the effort of finding a way to get a decent translation of the statement. hell, every single statement about bowser creating something much more appropriately seems to mean he is doing so in a metaphorical sense as this translation implies. nothing to add really, i just dont like that all of this was done only to find out its exactly what we expected and perhaps it wasnt even necessary.

 

[SamanPatou]

Something I always found weird is using the stars like if they were constantly pumping Bowser with energy like if it was Dragon Ball, with the same Mario that still beats him many times without any amp. I find more realistic to think that the Stars boosts Bowser, indeed, but it's not like they give him all the power they use when making a galaxy, a world and things like that through magical means. The whole point is also Bowser always creating traps or setting up things to not have to deal with Mrio directly. And the series is indeed inconsistent because it doesn't need to be so, that statement doesn't mean that Miyamoto and Aonuma actually believe that Mario can destroy solar systems while programming a game with 100+ stars for gaming reasons and filling it with 9-B stuff because it's Mario and not Asura's Wrath. With that I don't mean that Mario has to be 9-B, just that it is inconsistent and I don't think every game should be merged into one and treated like if it was Dragon Ball.

 

[Armorchompy]

Should this be in a different thread? Seems to be moving a bit away from the original intention

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Antvasima I don't know what's happening here. I think people arguing here are so caught up with what they believe is the best into now believing it's actually legitimate without objection and seems entirely different to why we were called here the last time. In addition, while the series may have no officially recognized canon, I believe it's discontinuity is becoming exaggerated. The series isn't consistent but not into the point where we have to believe every installment/series of games has it's own time and place. The games across the franchise still recognized some events have taken place before others and would sometimes lead to certain installments, meaning there is still a sense of continuity. Because of this, I believe separating the profiles by games/series due to the gap in some stats will backfire as we will eventually have future threads debating on rescaling the cast based on this. I suggest instead of arguing of separating Mario based on which game/series he appears in, we should go back in analyzing these current feats before determining an appropriate tier.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm fine with leaving this subject until a later date while this current discussion concludes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't like giving 4-A to people who are "Empowered" by Power Stars since one of them is literally defeated by being pushed off a cliff and another by being thrown into landmines.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I don't like 4-A much either, I just feel this isn't the right place to discuss that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If a thread called "Relooking at Mario's Stats" isn't, than what is?

 

[Armorchompy]

... True

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I would say that kind of stuff (power stars) specifically is relevant to the thread, but stuff about canonicity isn't as relevant

 

[KieranH10]

Is the 1 CRT per verse thing still going?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I think so

 

[KieranH10]

I'll wait until this thread concludes then before making a thread for Canon stuff then.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima I don't know what's happening here. I think people arguing here are so caught up with what they believe is the best into now believing it's actually legitimate without objection and seems entirely different to why we were called here the last time. In addition, while the series may have no officially recognized canon, I believe it's lack discontinuity is becoming exaggerated. The series isn't consistent but not into the point where we have to believe every installment/series of games has it's own time and place. The games across the franchise still recognized some events have taken place before others and would sometimes lead to certain installments, meaning there is still a sense of continuity. Because of this, I believe separating the profiles by games/series due to the gap in some stats will backfire as we will eventually have future threads debating on rescaling the cast based on this. I suggest instead of arguing of separating Mario based on which game/series he appears in, we should go back in analyzing these current feats before determining an appropriate tier.

I am fine with Dino's conclusions.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I got a translation for the 64 statement



As in the link Toad says: Sir Koopa/Bowser used power star to create kingdom of monsters inside walls and paintings. Recapture the stars!

This quote alone implies that Bowser didn't create the worlds of the paintings with the power stars, but more used them to take over the worlds within the paintings and create the monsters within the paintings or use the magic of the power stars turn them to his side

Just making sure no one forgot this

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thank you fo the help Hagane.

 

[Dust_Collector]

What's wrong with the Wario calc exactly? Was the hole the Shake King made in the clouds calced to be bigger than it actually is due to wonky pixel scaling or something?

Still curious about this

 

[Starsprite53]

As in the link Toad says: Sir Koopa/Bowser used power star to create kingdom of monsters inside walls and paintings. Recapture the stars!

This quote alone implies that Bowser didn't create the worlds of the paintings with the power stars, but more used them to take over the worlds within the paintings and create the monsters within the paintings or use the magic of the power stars turn them to his side

It literally says bowser used the power stars to "create" not to take over
I'm sure "Kingdom" is just a metaphor
Since these "kingdom-sized" realms have sun and stars
Worlds that already exist in painting in peach's castle before bowser's appearance (or without him using the power stars to create them) seems sus to me smh
Like Who else created these worlds?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

to create - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Looking at the scan and the link the Japanese verbs for "to create" うみだす, つくりあげる, or つくりだす, おこす do not appear here. Only つくろう which means to fix

Just might be good to look at again

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

It literally says bowser used the power stars to "create" not to take over

how is this not understood to be a metaphor? It is the only thing consistent with what we know.
actually while we are at it we know these worlds existed prior, even ignoring the fact that they have their own histories. 64 DS, which was used as evidence above because of something involving the character portraits (which really made no sense at all but whatever) is a part of the brand new stars in the remake. If you beat Bowser with all 150 stars, he comments that there are Power Stars he did not even know about, and these are also in painting worlds btw.

So we have examples of painting worlds existing prior to Bowser's takeover, the original translation not literally involving creation, we have examples of fake celestial objects in one of the main courses, we have examples of paintings existing in the natural world, and we have the case of how Power Stars empower bosses and Bowser in the first place. The only inconsistency is Bowser creating anything, which does not make sense with what we know.

 

[Starsprite53]

Just might be good to look at again

Both of つくろう and つくりあげるmean "build"

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Both of つくろう and つくりあげるmean "build"

so like building an empire, got it

 

[Starsprite53]

so like building an empire, got it

Yeah he created worlds to build an empire, got it too

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

If the original japanese quote from SM64 contradicts Bowser creating the worlds then I guess that feat is bunk.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Yeah he created worlds to build an empire, give me something new

seems like a pretty stupid plan on Bowser's part but alright

but also we know all of the worlds already existed prior so no

 

[Starsprite53]

Also the additional secret stars in DS (which are 30) are in the castle not in the courses

 

[Starsprite53]

seems like a pretty stupid plan on Bowser's part but alright

Idk what makes the alternate plan less stupid

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Also the additional secret stars in DS (which are 30) are in the castle not in the courses

true, but as i pointed out it doesn't matter if they are secret stars, courses, in the walls, in a painting, in a toy, whatever. every single type of stage has evidence of having existed prior. unless we want to argue bowser created stages he didnt even know about on accident, somehow.

Idk what makes the alternate plan less stupid

the fact that he is taking over something that actually already exists, lol

 

[Starsprite53]

every single type of stage has evidence of having existed prior.

It can be argued that each of these worlds have different flow of time
Since boo's mansion and goomboss's stage have night time and shifting sand land had a history

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

UUUUGGH!! I thought the translation would clear up some confusion and end the arguing, instead it has made more!

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

It can be argued that each of these worlds have different flow of time
Since boo's mansion and goomboss's stage have night time and shifting sand land had a history

so we would really much rather argue that time flows massively differently here such that decades to hundreds of years (maybe more) have occurred, meanwhile years of history do not pass in the real world when Mario leaves?

unfounded assumption, idk why we are trying to apply this weird ass metaphysics to this instead of considering "maybe this does not work how we think it does"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Still curious about this

It uses the World Map for wonky pixel scaling (Think how Chrono Trigger used to get 5-A results for people shaking a mountain by using literal scaling off the world map) and it's before our standards for cloud calcs were revised.

 

[Starsprite53]

so we would really much rather argue that time flows massively differently here such that decades to hundreds of years (maybe more) have occurred, meanwhile years of history do not pass in the real world when Mario leaves?

I'm sure this isn't the first case of a realm that has different flow of time

 

[Starsprite53]

UUUUGGH!! I thought the translation would clear up some confusion and end the arguing, instead it has made more!

Idk but you need to calm down

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I'm sure this isn't the first case of a realm that has different flow of time

its the first case ive ever seen that has no evidence whatsoever of being one, personally

usually fictions that have this have a level of metaphysics or lore or, you know, an explanation about this

so, again, still unfounded and ad hoc