Relooking at Mario's stats

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

They are. Mario 64 has many guides/manuals, not just one. You can clearly see the layout of the Japanese guide is different from Nintendo Power's.

Why are you using Nintendo Power?! That's an English scan! We unanimously agreed to only use the original Japanese guide! And of course stop talking on about using secondary sources! Primary Sources (games) >>>>>>>>>> Secondary sources (guides) anyway

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's literally the entire argument, scaling between games should not be allowed, as they .show Mario at entirely different levels, and treat them like it's his max.

Because by this logic, it's not a Mario-only thing, that applies to any long series. We're not gonna give Superman a key for each issue because he isn't 4-B in every one of them. Considering how he has multiple 4-A feats + consistently beat Power Star users, it's still not an argument.

My scans are literally every single Mario game acting as its own source of media, with only the in-series rules applying to each game series. New Super Mario Bros treats Mario vastly differently to the likes of Mario Galaxy. As does every other game with each other. They simply shouldn't be compared.

By feats or lore, because these mainline games already connect each other. New Super Mario Bros's manual quite literally refers to Sunshine. Different game-styles doesn't mean shit.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Why are you using Nintendo Power?! That's an English scan! We unanimously agreed to only use the original Japanese guide! And of course stop talking on about using secondary sources! Primary Sources (games) >>>>>>>>>> Secondary sources (guides) anyway

Because we allow Nintendo Power. It doesn't matter if it's an English scan when the text wasn't a quote from the game, it's original. Secondary sources are allowed if they do not contradict the primary source, which it hasn't.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

This thread with DatOneWeeb in a nutshell:

 

[KieranH10]

No, Superman and DC does have a canon though, his outliers are outliers, because he actually has one major storyline that he follows at any given time, and actually has feats within the same storyline that can be scaled to the same Superman, each issue isn't completely different to the overall story. Mario lacks an overall story and each game does not actually affect the others aside from supposed minor statements in manuals which don't actually affect the games story at all. Acting as their own isolated stories with no bearing on each other at all.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Secondary sources are allowed if they do not contradict the primary source, which it hasn't.

You just contradicted yourself because what if one of us gets a translation that does contradict the guide!

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Still gonna mention this proposal has already been denied, it's late, but many of the games themselves already have shown several displaymemts of connection. NES Trilogy to SMW (The ship was from SMB3), 64 to SMW, Sunshine to all of those games, Luigi's Mansion to Sunshine, Paper Mario with sports, M&L with mainline & Paper Mario, etc etc

 

[DatOneWeeb]

You just contradicted yourself because what if one of us gets a translation that does contradict the guide!

You said what if, meaning there's nothing against what I just said. Therfore there is no contradiction.

 

[KieranH10]

What are these connections between games, minor statements in notebooks or cameo appearances is not enough to justify the enormous difference in portrayal of every character between games.

 

[LuckyEmile]

What do you mean scaling between games isn't an argument? That's literally the entire argument, scaling between games should not be allowed, as they .show Mario at entirely different levels, and treat them like it's his max.

My scans are literally every single Mario game acting as its own source of media, with only the in-series rules applying to each game series. New Super Mario Bros treats Mario vastly differently to the likes of Mario Galaxy. As does every other game with each other. They simply shouldn't be compared.

@Lucky We aren't gonna spilt the verse into individual game profiles, as that would be an unnecessary amount of work, splitting the verse into its different series, such as Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros, Mario Odyssey, etc is a much better alternative which keeps consistency, and doesn't require dozens of profiles for basically the same character.

I've split it into individual games before, it's fine.

I mean... New Super Mario Bros and Super Mario Galaxy are explicitly the same series, as presented by Nintendo numerous times, the only shaky entries being Super Mario Land, so it seems weird to split them. Plus, Super Mario Odyssey is its own game, so you're basically just splitting them into individual games and just clumping the occasional games together where it feels right. In Paper Mario and Dream team Bros, there are attacks involving going around the globe, so they'd end up at the same level, so going by a "their power feels similar" approach could lead to some kind of weird results.

So... if you want to split it into series, wouldn't going by series as opposed to gut feeling or feat level be better? You seem put off by the idea of splitting it into individual games, yet seem fine with doing so at the same time if you can't put it together with something, which... seems odd...

 

[Antvasima]

KieranH10 still seems to make sense to me, and DatOneWeeb is being obstinate, yes, but not to nearly a blockable degree.

He has to learn to stop being relentlessly timewasting and argumentative when staff members repeatedly tell him to drop an issue though, or we might be forced to remove his right to respond to this discussion thread.

 

[KieranH10]

@Lucky Yes, Odyssey is it's own game, but it is still its own "series" too for lack of better words, just like the NSMB series, or the Galaxy series. It's still treated separately to the other games, so should still have its own profiles.

 

[00potato]

WTF?

So you are fine shutting down this discussion whenever and preventing Weeb from arguing his case? Just because some staff disagree with him?
That is peak scummy-ness.

 

[Antvasima]

DatOneWeeb:

Are you willing to drop the issues that our staff members have told you to drop, or do I have to prevent you from responding any more to this thread?

00potato:

No, it isn't anywhere near scummy. It is just about basic efficiency and not wasting time for everybody involved, if certain members derail threads or relentlessly prevent anything from getting done. It is part of the standard tasks of forum staff members in general, or XenForo wouldn't have included it as an easily used standard option.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically Weeb has been so time-consuming that everybody else involved, including staff, seem to have quit or are about to quit, in frustration from dealing with him, including Ryukama. I would prefer if he is reasonable, so we do not have to use this option, but staff members also have the right to act as staff and maintain a bit of order at times.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

That was in response to eficiente and I implore you to find the japanese version of the book he gave you and get a translation, if you can't then your burden of proof has not been met and we can dismiss this.

@DatOneWeeb Are you going to deny this?

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

For a name of "The Return of King Whomp", you'd expect him to remember Mario. He doesn't. Hell, not even the Bob-omb buddies seem to either.

You literally just listed the two key pieces of evidence without actually talking about their significance at all, while also making a false comparison to 1-1 references. 1-1's original stage has no dialogue whatsoever and no reference to it ever says "oh you're back" or "hmm have i seen you somewhere before?"

cameos are like some of the most frequently used evidence in these mario threads but here when we have actual physical characters as well as an omniscient third person party labelling a mission featuring a character as a "return" apparently that's too questionable?

Which is you re-wording it to make the feat different. "Oh those paintings? They were never there, Bowser simply displayed them." You say prior that these paintings were from the castle but now they're Bowser's possessions?

I don't know if you are just skimming now or what, but here's the deal: A conqueror or a thief who takes your possessions and claims them as their own now owns your possessions.

Because these aren't English translations from another manual, it's original text that Nintendo makes. There's nothing too translate there. It's a secondary source, we've used manuals/guides for several verses.

Still wondering if you are just skimming, because I asked why you are using ANY english sources when we are questioning the reliability of english sources in the first place. Something which no one who wanted to upgrade the verse based on ridiculous starry sky feats had to do, by the way.

No idea how you misread that. The theory itself was what will Bowser do with the paintings, not if he made them or not.

because there isn't a single thing in the first page you linked that supports your point beyond some fringe connections, probably

Because we DO know Bowser made them, you do everything because of them. For further evidence that Bowser can create original worlds, the paintings of Mario, Luigi, and Wario, support this. Since it's only a pportrait of their face and not resembling any location, Bowser clearly made his own worlds to hide away the keys.

non-sequitur, premises do not follow to the conclusion at all, what even is this

You absolutely have to prove it's fake, it's not just about proving the positive, but because to say everything in the game you interact with and specifically the stars only can't be real is blatant cherrpicking. If there's nothing suggesting it's fake, then don't argue it is.

So in the same message you try to dismiss BBH by saying it is different but now you are going back to this. So yes, it is special pleading I guess, cool.

Just like with the Sunshine argument, you are arguing that a main course level has different properties than the other ones do without evidence, which is special pleading. Though funnily enough the "walls" and "paintings" thing likely seems to be inclusive of secret stages judging by Peach's quote here, and judging by the quotes you see if you hit ctrl+f walls or ctrl+f castle walls, it seems like its referring to everything within the castle walls which, yes, refers to every single stage, secret or otherwise. Way more reasonable than some being arbitrarily excluded.

Are you telling me realistic cities aren't a thing in Mario?

Alright now I know you are skimming. Here is what I said:

"This book is an english source that claims Mario is from Brooklyn, ironically after Yoshi's Island is released."

Here is apparently what you read:

"Brooklyn"

I am saying this guide is about as accurate as Mega Man defending Monsteropolis in Mega Man 1 or whatever, Ristar meeting up with his father in his game, or Sonic rescuing Sally Acorn in Sonic CD, all of which are inventions from english manuals.

 

[00potato]

How is any of that basic efficiency? This is just shutting down a discussion because some staff don’t like it. Let the man argue his case.
The people who quit, how is that much of a problem? People conceding when faced with arguments is normal.
Shutting down the side of a discussion you don’t like isn’t “enforcing order.” It’s well shutting down discussion.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

How is any of that basic efficiency? This is just shutting down a discussion because some staff don’t like it. Let the man argue his case.
The people who quit, how is that much of a problem? People conceding when faced with arguments is normal.
Shutting down the side of a discussion you don’t like isn’t “enforcing order.” It’s well shutting down discussion.

for one they didn't concede, for two anyone can make a fatuous debate continue on forever if they really want to. That's what he is saying. He also did not say he is shutting it down immediately, for that matter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We aren't using American Nintendo Power guides, no. That is ridiculous. Those guides aren't even made by the people who made the game and they frequently rely on innacurate information and make shit up.

You can't simultaneously want to defend King Boo by using the Japanese Text while using American Guides for things you like, that makes it a hypocrite.

Also, Yoshi's feat isn't real.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@00potato, are you a bot? Your profile isn’t available to look at?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Speaking of splitting up Mario, Paper Mario needs to be split-up again. You can't use the Miyamoto statement that is literally about how Mario has no canon or timeline like Zelda and ignore the entire premise of Paper Jam.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Personally i think the mario canonicity stuff is probably better for a different thread although i think its weird that Goomboss is being used as evidence for why they are the same individual yet we are also arguing in this thread that Bowser created the character portraits showing Mario, Luigi, Wario while also acknowledging Goomboss existed prior.

Why are we having it both ways?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also comparing Mario to Superman is peak hipocrisy and a false equivalence. Superman actually has direct destruction feats that are worth a damn while Mario has none. All he has are "Dude creates starry sky with the power of a McGuffin. Mario or Luigi then beat up this dude by making them fall of a cliff or sucking them with a vacuum" and then Mario supporters are like "This means everyone is 4-A!"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are we having it both ways?

Cause pretending Mario is a Shounen Anime with a timeline and story arcs is the first step to make wanking Mario seem more acceptable.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't really care too much about the whole "Are the stars in the paintings real or even made by Bowser" discussion so I'll ignore everything to do with that, but in regards to the treating different Mario games as their own canon/profiles I can't agree with that. With stuff like Paper Mario, sure I guess since Paper Jam is a thing so those games being their own thing with their own version of Mario is fine by me, but I don't see any genuine reason to treat to make a profile spefically for Mario as he appears in games like Odysessy or the Mario and Luigi games and treat them all as different versions of the same character.

 

[Starsprite53]

Speaking of splitting up Mario, Paper Mario needs to be split-up again. You can't use the Miyamoto statement that is literally about how Mario has no canon or timeline like Zelda and ignore the entire premise of Paper Jam.

Oh yeah sure "Paperjam"
Let's forget many games that proved they are the same + WoG

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

At most I'd advocate to split the RPG games into keys since they're vastly different than the main games. Mario shows abilities in those he never has in the main games. When was the last time Luigi used Thunder Magic in a Mario Plataformer?

 

[KieranH10]

I've actually been planning on bringing my idea up for a while now, I can make another thread for it if we wish, as I'll admit I kinda derailed this one as it was not in the OP.

Would I be ok to make another thread now or is the 1 thread per verse rule still in action?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Let's forget many games that proved they are the same

They don't exist. Paper Mario is literally made of Paper and not the same Mario as shown in a game which you choose to ignore.

WoG

Doesn't exist. You guys are willfully misinterpreting a Miyamoto statement to pretend Mario has some grand timeline when the statement is literally about how Mario doesn't have a timeline.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've actually been planning on bringing my idea up for a while now, I can make another thread for it if we wish, as I'll admit I kinda derailed this one as it was not in the OP.

Would I be ok to make another thread now or is the 1 thread per verse rule still in action?

We can discuss it here still since we are still talking about feats.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Just to ask, if we debunk all of the tier 4 feats, what will Mario’s tier be then?

 

[KieranH10]

Ok

 

[00potato]

@00potato, are you a bot? Your profile isn’t available to look at?

It isn’t? I might have turned on some privacy features.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just to ask, if we debunk all of the tier 4 feats, what will Mario’s tier be then?

Tier 6 at best to my knowledge.

The Wario feat is grossly wanked and needs to be recalced.

 

[Starsprite53]

They don't exist. Paper Mario is literally made of Paper

and not the same Mario as shown in a game which you choose to ignore

"A single game" got countermanded by more games

 

[Dust_Collector]

Eh, I don't think abilities is a overly good reason to treat the RPG games as their own thing, using Luigis magic thunder as an example he doesn't even use it all the M&L games, he gets it once in the first game and in the next 4 he never uses it again. I think just seperating Paper Mario is good since Paper Jam confirms that fleshly Mario and not so fleshly Mario aren't the same (Although apparently the Superstar remake made after Paper Jam they treat the first Paper Mario as a past adventure alongside stuff like Mario 3 and World? I don't know) but besides that I think stuff M&L can stay on the same profile as the other games.

What's wrong with the Wario calc exactly? Was the hole the Shake King made in the clouds calced to be bigger than it actually is due to wonly pixel scaling or something?

 

[Starsprite53]

Doesn't exist. You guys are willfully misinterpreting a Miyamoto statement to pretend Mario has some grand timeline when the statement is literally about how Mario doesn't have a timeline.

He literally said every version of Mario are the same.
And if you are going to say its death of author cuz lol paperjam
More games further affirms what miyamoto said

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"A single game" got countermanded by more games

Yoshi's Wooly Games are just aesthetic but with the recent Paper Mario games, the world being made of paper is literally an essential plot point and a massive game mechanic.

You are using false equivalencies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He literally said every version of Mario are the same.

Cause Mario has no timeline. He said that Mario isn't like Zelda with many versions in different timelines. Mario has no timeline, Mario in Miyamoto's eyes is just "an actor" that can be put into any game or story pretty much.