SAO Upgrade CRT | Absorbing the Sun or something idk

[CloverDragon03]

Snip

I disagree with the assessments of my sentiments here, especially given how this rule is never applied to begin with (though I didn't know if the admin PM thing, which is good to know for future reference) - but it's probably best if we just focus on the thread itself. In the event of a deadlock like this, I believe some sort of compromise solution must be met if even a re-vote doesn't help matters.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Yeah that whole affecting the area stuff stopped being relevant after I got given further context, which was a few posts in.

Wait, could you further expand on this? Didn’t quite see or realize you had some sort of realization.

 

[Agnaa]

Wait, could you further expand on this? Didn’t quite see or realize you had some sort of realization.

I don't know what you'd want me to say. In my first post, I said "From the little context I've seen, this feat may not be widely-applicable, as it doesn't generate heat, and the light re-emitted only hurt monsters that may have been weak to light", afterwards DMUA explained on Discord that the technique has shown applicability against ordinary opponents before, so I dropped that point.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I don't know what you'd want me to say. In my first post, I said "From the little context I've seen, this feat may not be widely-applicable, as it doesn't generate heat, and the light re-emitted only hurt monsters that may have been weak to light", afterwards DMUA explained on Discord that the technique has shown applicability against ordinary opponents before, so I dropped that point.

Ohhhh, I was just a bit confused on what you were talking about.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I have been asked to provide input here.

At present, I agree with Agnaa's assessment. It's perfectly within reason that a statement along the lines of "the sun lost its light" - or more precisely in this case, "Solus on the western horizon lost all of its light" - could just refer to the light of a particular viewing point being removed. To give an analogy to a recent real life event: I don't think people viewing the recent solar eclipse in the United States could be criticised for saying that "the sun lost its light" when they looked up at it. We wouldn't ordinarily take such a statement as strange, because it's an apt description of the event, even if not a totally literal one. And I don't believe the counterarguments against Agnaa's points have addressed this.

I'm largely satisfied with leaving it at this. However, at risk of dragging out the thread further - I am wondering if there is more context that could substantiate taking this feat to actually be referring to the whole sun. I don't know this verse very well, so I couldn't attest to this on my own. And some posts I can see do allude to something like this existing, but I'm struggling to piece together what the intended connections are.

which the scans actually answered because Release recollection or Perfect Weapon Control art is about releasing and strengthening but prior to that
Magic in this verse is all about control or authority and what Kirito basically did was micromanage and control all these light particles.
Even the syntax and command for magic include manipulating properties and how these elements will act their shape etc. and Luminous and thermal elements are separate
i can go on more about the detail but this is my answer to Agnaa's concern about it not affecting the area around except the targetted minions.

Your post, @TheGreatJedi13 , stuck out to me in particular, and I would like elaboration on what you've said here. Let me put it in my own words to see if I understand what you're saying. Is your point here that 'magic' in the verse operates by controlling specific properties of objects, rather than simply adjusting the objects themselves, and that this feat should therefore be taken as 'taking the property of luminosity of the sun into Kirito's blade' rather than 'taking a set amount of photons into Kirito's blade'? If so, can you substantiate this with scans? And if it's not what you meant, can you explain what you intended to say?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Your post, @TheGreatJedi13 , stuck out to me in particular, and I would like elaboration on what you've said here. Let me put it in my own words to see if I understand what you're saying. Is your point here that 'magic' in the verse operates by controlling specific properties of objects, rather than simply adjusting the objects themselves, and that this feat should therefore be taken as 'taking the property of luminosity of the sun into Kirito's blade' rather than 'taking a set amount of photons into Kirito's blade'? If so, can you substantiate this with scans? And if it's not what you meant, can you explain what you intended to say?

This is going to require a lot of digging for scans and what not, as well as a general explanation on Underworld, so give me a bit to type and find all this. This may take a LONG WHILE, so just hold your horses and it'll be up soon.

 

[GrathOfLux]

This is going to require a lot of digging for scans and what not, as well as a general explanation on Underworld, so give me a bit to type and find all this. This may take a LONG WHILE, so just hold your horses and it'll be up soon.

Take your time.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Let me put it in my own words to see if I understand what you're saying. Is your point here that 'magic' in the verse operates by controlling specific properties of objects, rather than simply adjusting the objects themselves, and that this feat should therefore be taken as 'taking the property of luminosity of the sun into Kirito's blade' rather than 'taking a set amount of photons into Kirito's blade'?

I would say yes under the context I'm about to explain
all 8 elements in the Underworld can be used to deplete durability and Luminosity is one of those. But just performing these System Call rituals to generate or convert and such requires Sacred Power which translates to Space resources (which are generated by the Earth[The entire planet of the Underworld] and The Sun) some use the space resources from the surroundings but not all the time they have sufficient so they use Catalyst
The explanation for Sacred Power is in Volume 10 Chapter 4 Part 2 of Alicization Page 226.

So In a nutshell, although he is specifically using the Luminosity of the Sun to attack the Dark creatures (They are weak to light) the usage of Sacred Arts already requires Sacred Power that is from the Earth and the Sun
the scan above talked about how these 4 flowers are Catalyst that overtime gains resources from the Sun.

Now Kirito's Sword is the Night Sky Blade is built using Gigas Cedar which is notorious for gathering resources from the sun that plant life cannot thrive while under it.

Normally for Release Recollection, they needed to use the Memory stored within the weapons and use up the weapon durability but the ability gained from this is based on how the user pictures the memories and the ability within the Weapon's memories.
So the act of Kirito absorbing the luminosity of the Sun is both tied to the weapon's ability to gather resources from the Sun and also alludes that it also draws Sacred Power from the Sun

There is one episode in The Alicization Anime where Eugeo was trying hard to grow flowers as well which explained it a bit as well regarding resources and sacred power but because the flower is terrible and doesn't really store or generate much of it they die kinda easily and terrible at blooming and often wither before fully growing

But the idea is that these plants store resources/Sacred Power with the help of Earth and the Sun (I guess in this case it is energy) so even if Kirito only drained the Luminosity. Luminosity itself is still a product of Sacred Energy resources and what's important is it can decrease Durability which is the basis of whether someone is being destroyed or not by an energy or force

 

[CurrySenpai]

Alright so, let's start off with providing context to everyone who isn't as privy to Underworld's lore as others are, this is going to be a cliff notes version, but it will discuss the basis of how it works.

How Underworld Works​

Underworld is a simulation created by RATH to simulate real human life by recreating Fluctlights, or the soul. How this is achieved is through putting Fluctlights in a lightcube and then putting those lightcubes in a lightcube cluster. Underworld is not a game as a game that runs on polygons and 1s and 0s would not be able to handle the amount of data or computing power required for this, so instead Underworld runs off the Mnemonic visual data of all its fluctlights, essentially the shared memories of the souls. This data is sent to the Main Visualizer, which manifests the world and lets everyone exist in a shared memory or dream, essentially.
Due to this though, an unintended side effect is the existence of Incarnation, an ability that processes your willpower or perception of the world in order to warp it and change it to your own liking. This happens because when you have immense willpower, the Main Visualizer is forced to process it, and this forces it to essentially make what you thought was real or happening real.
It'd be too tedious to get every single scan of this, but here is a blog Xmark made which shows Incarnation's abilities.
This is important to understand because after War of Underworld and at this point in the series, Kirito is connected to the Main Visualizer itself after Higa did so to help Kirito get out of his comatose state. His Incarnation and understanding of the world are IMMENSE at this point.

Underworld Mechanics​

Underworld has 3 very important stats that all things possess, and you can view through a Stacia Window. Life/Durability, Object Control Authority, and System Control Authority.
Life is simple, it's the amount of Life you or an object has, damaging something removes life, or even using weapon abilities.
Object Control Authority determines what weapons you can hold, like a strength stat. If I have a OCA of 40 and a sword has one of 30 I can lift it easily, the reverse is also true.
System Control Authority determines what type of Sacred Arts and System Commands you can perform. The higher it gets, the more crazy and ludicrous stuff you can do.
For example, Quinella had the highest SCA which gave her access to commands that let her perform a ritual that hides your memories, resurrect people from the dead, even make Divine Weapons.
OCA and SCA is important, and it can be raised by killing things such as animals or other Underworld denizens.
Once again, important because Kirito has since killed Quinella and gained A LOT of that from his fight with her.

The final mechanic which is important is Divine Objects. There are special items in Underworld that reach such a high level of System Priority (usually above 40) they are divine in the system. These objects can get turned into weapons. Bercouli's was made out of a system clock, Kirito's was made out of the Gigas Cedar, Eugeo's was made out of a Blue Rose that became the Blue Rose Sword
These can manifest a special ability associated with the weapon's memories. In order to manifest these abilities, you usually say Enhance Armament, or Release Recollection.
Enhance Armament enhances the memories within the weapon, partially manifesting its memories and producing an offensive ability, Bercouli's sword lets him create slashes in the future, Kirito's lets him make a big beam, Eugeo's lets him freeze people in blocks of ice.
Release Recollection releases all the memories within, granting an extremely potent ability, Bercouli's lets him slash the past, Eugeo's lets him insta freeze people in a large circle.

Now that you understand this, let's get to Sacred Arts.

Sacred Arts​

Sacred Arts are essentially magic in Underworld. In order to use them, you use a voice command and your imagination to use the Spatial Resources/Sacred Power around you to make the command execute.
On the topic of the syntax, I'll make a quick example of how this works.
"System Call: Generate Luminous Element! Lighting Shape. Discharge"
It is a process of a couple of things. System Call (Begins the process, you start visualizing what you want to create) > Generate Luminous Element (You are defining and imagining the element you wish you produce for the command), Lighting Shape (Visualize lightning itself and Luminous elements becoming that), Discharge (Fire off the lightning and release the Sacred Art)

This is a long process, that in every step requires you to use your imagination/Incarnation to actually make it happen.

Now that I've established this, I can finally get to the final part of the arguments and hopefully settle this.

Is your point here that 'magic' in the verse operates by controlling specific properties of objects, rather than simply adjusting the objects themselves, and that this feat should therefore be taken as 'taking the property of luminosity of the sun into Kirito's blade' rather than 'taking a set amount of photons into Kirito's blade'? If so, can you substantiate this with scans? And if it's not what you meant, can you explain what you intended to say?

To explain this, this is 100% how it works. As I explained above, Sacred Arts is a long and involved process requiring oneself to visualize and imagine the properties of things or whatever you wish to command rather than just... adjust it. Throughout the entire process, if you break concentration, the Sacred Power goes away and the command fails. Here is a scan of such.

Once you produce the elements, you have to imagine and reshape them in the form of the thing you want, if you break concentration then it disappears. But as shown with other commands in the series, you have to imagine it taking on new properties rather than just going "Oop I actually want a sword now, go back!" if you were trying to generate a shield out of cryogenic elements. A couple examples of these are.

In a couple of these examples, there's more than just manifesting an object or element. Eldrire creates ice birds, specifically meant to counter Thermal Objects, Kirito has to form cryogenic element into a shield which he shoots forward, and in the final he makes fire arrows that he specifies to fly straight and discharge.

So yes, Kirito would actually have to absorb all of Solus' light, or well the "property" of it as you say, it’s what he was targeting so he can’t just absorb a tiny bit of it, or reshape Solus itself, if he targeted Solus’ luminosity it’d get absorbed wholesale. It also just makes more sense, why go through the tedious process of absorbing light out of this specific area when he could just imagine his sword taking in all of Solus' light, something inherit to the sword's memories and abilities. Why risk not having enough Sacred Power when he can just absorb all of Solus' light. He has the ability to, he stands as the uncontested strongest in the verse at that moment.
Now, onto the Gigas Cedar part about it this, Kirito's sword is made of the Gigas Cedar, an object that had absorbed the most spatial resources from Solus and Terraria (the earth). This lets it absorb Spatial Resources as its Release Recollection, mainly Sacred Power from Solus. BUT ALONGSIDE THIS it had another memory which was Eugeo, Kirito and the other woodcutters looking up at the stars in the sky with it. When Eugeo died, he named the sword the Night Sky Sword, based off how dark it was and how it reflected the pitch black night sky with stars and all. It's a divine object, the point is that it has immense capabilities and powers.
It being a divine object especially helps this because Divine Objects do the thing their memory is associated with. Blue Rose Sword was made from a frozen rose so it freezes things and has ice powers, Time Splitting Sword was made from a clock so it cuts the past and future, Gigas Cedar absorbed so much of Solus’ light and the woodcutters looked at the night sky with it, so it absorbs all of Solus’ light to make that.
The fundamental memories of the Night Sky Sword is absorbing Solus' Light, and the complete night sky filled with stars. There is no reason for us to think it absorbs light out of a specific area based on this. And as I mentioned earlier, it's kind of ludicrous to think that Kirito using the Release Recollection of the sword here is just a specific area when
1. This is the most powerful ability pertaining to the sword.
2. The memories associated are not just light out of a specific area.
3. It would be tedious and stupid to just absorb a bit of light out of this area.
Speaking of point 3, he makes tens of thousands of light elements. Absorbing the light of this specific area would certainly not give him enough to makes tens of thousands of light elements. Tiese says she as much that she doesn't have the ability to beat the Dark Minions because she can't make that many light elements, much fewer ones so potent that they almost blind you.

Conclusion​

I'm hoping this is the final argument, I had to grab a lot of shit to do this, but I appreciate everyone's support and analysis. If anything, this has helped me further understand SAO... I feel as if I've awakened to something... I feel like I'm on a high after writing this much.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Made a couple small edits

 

[CurrySenpai]

To further cement my arguments as well, we have instances of Cardinal discussing Release Recollection, describing it as something that unlocks and recalls all of the weapon's memory to unleash it's wildest power.

And here's a scene where Kirito imagines the Gigas' Cedars qualities in his fight with Fanatio, although this is him moreso resolving that since the Gigas Cedar absorbs light it would be able to beat Fanatio's light beam.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think the scans you've posted substantiate your claims, but maybe this is just because I don't understand how they're meant to?

Why does being able to transform objects mean that, if one manipulates light, they must manipulate all the light from a particular object? It seems like this is rooted in the idea that "If elements are indivisible quanta, then everything this magic targets must operate on the level of indivisible quanta, so no smaller portion of Solus could be affected", but that's obviously incorrect with this feat since the OP's feat involves tens of thousands of light elements. Presumably, less light could've been absorbed to get fewer light elements, and more light could've been absorbed to get more light elements. There's also stuff in your scans like one character being able to emanate 5 elements from their hand, while another character could only emanate 3 (you posted this scan twice btw).

Other points like Kirito being the strongest, or having a really strong weapon, or having "no reason to risk not being strong enough" don't matter either; those aren't reasons to take feats as higher than they're implied by the text.

I think the historical purpose of the Gigus Cedar goes against your point; an object which grew by absorbing the light that hit part of the planet could very well just do so to a far greater degree (i.e. making the sky go dark instead of passively absorbing a patch, or a bit more extreme, absorbing all the light that would hit the whole planet), without going to the astronomically higher degree of absorbing all the light in the solar system.

And here's a scene where Kirito imagines the Gigas' Cedars qualities in his fight with Fanatio, although this is him moreso resolving that since the Gigas Cedar absorbs light it would be able to beat Fanatio's light beam.

If this is before the feat in the OP, I think it'd be quite the contradiction, since there should've been no point in time before the OP where the Gigas Cedar absorbed 100% of the light emitted by Solus into all of space.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I don't think the scans you've posted substantiate your claims, but maybe this is just because I don't understand how they're meant to?

I think it's just that you don't understand it, sadly I had to leave a lot out for the sake of time, and I'd rather not give everyone a lecture on the history of Underworld and all its intricacies and nuances.

Regardless, Grath will make the evaluation, so I just don't feel like explaining this any further unless I have to. Nothing against you, I just don't wanna deal with this rn.

Edit: Also on the last scan I mentioned that it's just Kirito resolving that it could absorb/overpower Fanatio's light beam, they were having a beam struggle during this. It's likely just flowery language, but I thought to mention it to further drive home the whole reality warping aspect of it all

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's just that you don't understand it, sadly I had to leave a lot out for the sake of time, and I'd rather not give everyone a lecture on the history of Underworld and all its intricacies and nuances.

We seriously don't need all of the history. From my knowledge on weird power systems in other series, it seems like you're heavily overexplaining it by talking about concepts that don't matter one bit to this revision like "Life/Durability" and "Object Control Authority".

Edit: Also on the last scan I mentioned that it's just Kirito resolving that it could absorb/overpower Fanatio's light beam, they were having a beam struggle during this. It's likely just flowery language, but I thought to mention it to further drive home the whole reality warping aspect of it all

I didn't ask about the broader context for that fight, I asked for where it takes place in the timeline. Whether it was before or after the feat in the OP. Please answer that since it is quite relevant.

EDIT:

Regardless, Grath will make the evaluation, so I just don't feel like explaining this any further unless I have to. Nothing against you, I just don't wanna deal with this rn.

I mean, I'm making an evaluation too :V

There's things that I've supported more strongly, that I've done complete 180s on when further verse context was provided (most recently, in a DB thread I went from being against any multiplier being given at all, to supporting the high-end multiplier, convincing some other staff along the way). If it's just something to do later, or alongside any concerns Dark has, fair enough, but don't take my position as immutable.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I didn't ask about the broader context for that fight, I asked for where it takes place in the timeline. Whether it was before or after the feat in the OP. Please answer that since it is quite relevant.

It's before, but... how is this relevant??? As mentioned, a large part of Sacred Arts and whatnot are memories of the weapon and its casters Incarnation. It doesn't produce an exact 1x1 version of its memories, if anything it's suggested that the Release Recollection is stronger and more extreme.
Besides, this isn't even Kirito using the Release Recollection, he's using the Enhanced Armament to shoot a beam at Fanatio, and then going "The Gigas Cedar absorbs light so it's going to beat her light based attack"
The Blue Rose Sword didn't exactly freeze 30,000 people, and yet it can do that. The System Clock doesn't peer into the past or future itself, it just tells time, yet it can slice someone in the past and instantly kill them.
I said earlier, the memories help manifest an ability associated with them, it is not 1 to 1

Why does being able to transform objects mean that, if one manipulates light, they must manipulate all the light from a particular object? It seems like this is rooted in the idea that "If elements are indivisible quanta, then everything this magic targets must operate on the level of indivisible quanta, so no smaller portion of Solus could be affected", but that's obviously incorrect with this feat since the OP's feat involves tens of thousands of light elements. Presumably, less light could've been absorbed to get fewer light elements, and more light could've been absorbed to get more light elements. There's also stuff in your scans like one character being able to emanate 5 elements from their hand, while another character could only emanate 3 (you posted this scan twice btw).

You're gonna have to explain this in like... baby words for me. If you could kindly do that, that'd be great.

 

[CurrySenpai]

There's things that I've supported more strongly, that I've done complete 180s on when further verse context was provided (most recently, in a DB thread I went from being against any multiplier being given at all, to supporting the high-end multiplier, convincing some other staff along the way). If it's just something to do later, or alongside any concerns Dark has, fair enough, but don't take my position as immutable.

Apologies, I'm just a bit indifferent rn emotionally and I don't really feel like I can convince you, not because I don't have proof or anything but because our points and stances feel like polar opposites with neither giving.

 

[Agnaa]

It's before, but... how is this relevant???

Cutting off the rest of this part, since it wasn't actually focusing on the point I was trying to make.

Knowing that, my argument goes like....

• P1: This quote says the Gigas Cedar greedily absorbed all of Solus's light and turned it into its own power.
• P2: This quote was said before the feat in the OP.
• P3: There's no reason to believe that the Gigas Cedar literally absorbed all light Solus emitted some time in the past.
• C1: Therefore, sometimes when the story says "absorbed all of Solus's light" it's not referring to absorbing literally all that was emitted; rather, it's referring to a portion that hit the planet.
• C2: Therefore, when the story said "Solus on the western horizon lost all its light", it's probably not referring to absorbing literally all that was emitted; rather, it's referring to a portion that hit the planet.

You're gonna have to explain this in like... baby words for me. If you could kindly do that, that'd be great.

Sure, there's individual elements, and when they get manipulated those single elements have to be changed in their entirety.

However, sometimes objects end up spawning multiple elements, and different people can get different amounts of that element from comparable objects (some people get 5 elements from their hand, some get 3).

Plus, this clearly doesn't involve manipulating concepts as it applies to every object, it seems more like drawing out energy from a particular area.

And, it seems like when there are multiple elements being controlled by one person, some can be changed without changing others, such as having them to in different directions.

So, when Kirito manipulates 20,000 light elements taken from Solus, it seems like that isn't necessarily all that Solus emits. He could have some go in a certain direction, some go in another. He could have some come to aid him, and others not.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

To answer why we believe Gigas Cedar absorbed the light of Solus in the entirety of Earth. it is due to how memory plays a part in the Release Recollection.
Just as Kirito explained If he strongly believes the blue rose will bloom despite multiple people not having that opinion thus making it it may bloom by storing this memory and somehow affect the Main Memory.
One important key factor in Release Recollection is also the fact that a fragment of Fluclight may be stored within it and this fluctlight is basically what builds the Underworld because Soul translator uses fluctlight to simulate the virtual world and not by polygons which are generally within simulated games.

Do note that the people already believed the idea of Lunarian blocking off Solus's path as some sort of how they explain Solar Eclipse. and the fact alone that many people believed that's how the weapon achieved it further gives that weapon the power.
Kirito himself already knows that he simply needs to exaggerate his memories or make a rumor to make a thing a reality within the Underworld

So arguing that Since Gigas Cedar memories are only this thus it cannot be said to be like that may not work because, in the end, It is the imagination that also adds to these memories and can be stored this way. Kirito and Eugeo have been cutting the Gigas Cedar for a long time and even before them there are multitudes of others who have been cutting Gigas Cedar for 6 generations. If we are truly being honest here that 6 generations is a lot still but that would be an exaggeration so the other option is the 6 years of Kirito being with Gigas Cedar cutting it with Eugeo

To summarize this: Memories are accumulated not once time so an accumulation of memories of absorbing light for the entire forest for 6 years at best with kirito around cutting it with Eugeo

 

[Agnaa]

We seem to be talking about different things.

I am talking about the statement of what Gigas Cedar was said to do before Release Recollection was ever used with it, which shouldn't have been something that absorbed all the light Solus emitted into the solar system.

In response to that you're saying "Well, there's legends about it, so maybe people thought it was that far reaching, and so Release Recollection could do something on that scale."

I'm not very interested in tackling the speculation of how much the Memories could have powered it up, since that's not concrete enough. When talking about the Gigas Cedar's history, I'm only interested in the five points I brought up in my previous post.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I am talking about the statement of what Gigas Cedar was said to do before Release Recollection was ever used with it, which shouldn't have been something that absorbed all the light Solus emitted into the solar system.

i agree with this yes.

In response to that you're saying "Well, there's legends about it, so maybe people thought it was that far reaching, and so Release Recollection could do something on that scale."

That's a bad understanding of what I said. As I said the Underworld is a simulation built using memories and objects such as Zephyria are built upon the memories and such it acts according to the collective memory of all the fluctlights which is in the Main Memory.
So you must not simply disregard legends or rumors that are generally believed as the majority of the people in the Underworld believe Legends as factual and only the Axiom Church is aware that it isn't the case. and as their memories develop as Rath intends to do, So does the Main memory creating the expanded simulated World based on the Memories within these fluctlight.

So what I aim to say is that. "Kirito determines the scales with his imagination and the people's belief and perception of how it is happening is what further gives it power as that. So I believe Release recollection could do something on that Scale"

 

[Agnaa]

i agree with this yes.

That's a bad understanding of what I said. As I said the Underworld is a simulation built using memories and objects such as Zephyria are built upon the memories and such it acts according to the collective memory of all the fluctlights which is in the Main Memory.
So you must not simply disregard legends or rumors that are generally believed as the majority of the people in the Underworld believe Legends as factual and only the Axiom Church is aware that it isn't the case. and as their memories develop as Rath intends to do, So does the Main memory creating the expanded simulated World based on the Memories within these fluctlight.

So what I aim to say is that. "Kirito determines the scales with his imagination and the people's belief and perception of how it is happening is what further gives it power as that. So I believe Release recollection could do something on that Scale"

I am saying that the text gave a description of a feat. For it to make sense, we have to take it in a way where it doesn't scale to the entire light output of Solus. If you're happy to do that for one feat, you should be happy to do that with the feat with the OP. Not being willing to do that, is something I see as a contradiction. Do you have a reason for treating those feats differently which hasn't been explained yet?

Like, the pro argument from the start was "Lost all its light means that all of its light emitted to all of space was absorbed, and so the feat must be this high". My argument is that the wording could land somewhere else, so it should be rated lower. If you're willing to accept my argument elsewhere, why not here?

If you're just swapping the argument to "Yeah that wording doesn't actually imply that, but some people could interpret that way, and characters in this series can play up those myths to actualise even greater effects, so I think that occurred purely in the Release Recollection feat." That's a separate argument, to which my response is just that it actualising something that's literally that high isn't sufficiently supported in the text.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Logged out yesterday to focus on some writing, will be replying soon.

 

[CurrySenpai]

In response to that you're saying "Well, there's legends about it, so maybe people thought it was that far reaching, and so Release Recollection could do something on that scale."

I'm not very interested in tackling the speculation of how much the Memories could have powered it up, since that's not concrete enough. When talking about the Gigas Cedar's history, I'm only interested in the five points I brought up in my previous post.

Anyway, as rude as this sounds, what you are saying doesn’t really matter in the context of the world. Hopefully I can help you understand what me and Jedi are trying to say because I cannot stress enough it is important to understand the mechanics of the world to get this part of our argument.

Underworld, at its core, is a setting where belief from the masses, belief from yourself, and your own worldview greatly impact things and warp reality itself into whatever image people have conjured.
There are so many instances of stuff normally not possible becoming possible simply because Kirito or another character exaggerated their perception or imagination to make it real.
I sent the incarnation examples earlier, but we have other instances that I’ll mention which show its insane reality warping capabilities.

Individuals using Incarnation Examples:
1. Gabriel believed he could plunder and see souls after an experience with his childhood friend Alicia where he murdered her (this was just him being psychotic). When he entered Underworld under the Vecta account which had this ability, it further cemented his delusions after he murdered another person and saw their soul leave its body, and when he later logged in with his GGO account he was so deluded by these experiences that he just kept the abilities of his Vecta account because he believed they were his own, eventually becoming an Angel of Death that could absorb anything magical or Incarnation itself.
2. Asuna and Kirito both use Mother's Rosario and Dual Blades respectively, skills that do not exist at all in Underworld since it was made with the Base Seed Package. Regardless of this, both of them use these skills and manifest them into existence despite them quite literally not existing because they believed in them so much.

3. Kirito creates a 17th hit to Starburst Stream, a Dual Blades sword skill only ever consisting of 16 hits, in order to defeat Gabriel

Group Incarnation:
Jedi already mentioned it earlier, so I'm not gonna really talk about it much, but as the scan shows, the people of Underworld did not believe in Zephyria's growing in the northern empire at all, even when Kirito went to get soil from the Western Empire it did not grow because peoples incarnation and belief was that it could not, only through an intense moment of incarnation for Kirito can he make them not only bloom again, but also bring them back to life.

Another example is in the fight with Kirito vs Gabriel, where after Kirito makes the sky dark people send their prayers, wishes, and hopes to him which get turned into "stars" in the sky that he then absorbs to power himself up.

All this is to explain how Incarnation works. It is a core feature of the world that allows others to make the impossible possible through their willpower

The reason I am pounding this point home so hard is because it is important because it helps the abilities of this world manifest.

Basically, if the people of Underworld believe the Gigas Cedar was absorbing and hoarding all of Solus' light, and Kirito himself believes it, and the sword's memories are associated with it, then it will happen, because that is how this world works. So many people believing in one thing makes it possible, even if largely exaggerated, and Kirito as someone connected to the thing that powers Underworld can easily exaggerate his imagination and belief to make it real, all three of these things together makes it even more possible.

I am talking about the statement of what Gigas Cedar was said to do before Release Recollection was ever used with it, which shouldn't have been something that absorbed all the light Solus emitted into the solar system.

In response to that you're saying "Well, there's legends about it, so maybe people thought it was that far reaching, and so Release Recollection could do something on that scale."

I'm not very interested in tackling the speculation of how much the Memories could have powered it up, since that's not concrete enough. When talking about the Gigas Cedar's history, I'm only interested in the five points I brought up in my previous post.

This isn't really speculation, it is how Underworld works, this is basic knowledge of the setting, and honestly I feel like you're just not acknowledging this. Even if Kirito hadn't used Release Recollection, yet it doesn't matter because people in Underworld already knew about the Gigas Cedar and the legends and memories associated with it. And it's not like because it couldn't do one thing earlier it can't do that thing now, as expressed if people's perception is changed or someone overpowers it, then it can happen or become real, this is especially important considering this is AFTER the fight with Gabriel where the sun completely disappears when he uses the Night Sky Sword.

Besides, once again, the scan I brought up is largely irrelevant because Kirito is beating a LIGHT attack in a beam struggle and going this sword absorbs light so it will beat her light attack.

In the original, scene where Kirito uses Release Recollection vs Gabriel, we even get a bird's eye view of the stars people created, Solus is completely gone, there is no trace of it, the only light is the stars, even beyond the circle that was Underworld at that time.

And also, back to the original feat in Moon Cradle, we have a statement directly from Ronye that Solus' lost all its light, we have proof from characters who also have a deep and strong understanding of Incarnation that it happened. A first-hand statement from onlookers who can collectively shift how the world is process/simulated. If you don't believe it still, then prove it. Show me definitive text that what they're saying either isn't true, or that it wasn't the sun's luminosity in totality. I have provided cited evidence from the source itself to not only provide an understanding of the world but also show that this is indeed how things work and this feat is valid.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Also won't reply a whole lot today, I have commissions I need to work on. Money is tight.

 

[Agnaa]

I understand the argument, it just doesn't meet our standards for evidence.

If there was a character who had 40 different feats of reality warping, operating on fairly wide scales (such as, having given everyone on the planet a sore stomach). And then, they had a feat where they said "Let's heat things up", before narration describes the nearby land lighting on fire and a nearby lake evaporating. We would not calculate this as them boiling all the world's oceans and coating the entire surface of the planet with fire. It wouldn't exactly be a huge leap for their reality warping to be able to do that, but the text itself doesn't concretely establish that happening. Going from showing me 5 of those different reality warping feats to 20 of them would change nothing about this.

Because of that, all the other reality warping feats in the series you keep listing are, at this point, completely and utterly inconsequential. Please stop wasting my time with them.

And again, my only point with bringing up your earlier scan is that you're happy to take "The Gigas Cedar.... greedily absorbed all of Solus' light" as not implying it absorbed literally all the light emitted from Solus, but you're not willing to do the same for the feat in the OP despite the similar phrasing.

My argument is not, and has never been "It couldn't do that before so it can't do it now."

And also, back to the original feat in Moon Cradle, we have a statement directly from Ronye that Solus' lost all its light, we have proof from characters who also have a deep and strong understanding of Incarnation that it happened. A first-hand statement from onlookers who can collectively shift how the world is process/simulated. If you don't believe it still, then prove it. Show me definitive text that what they're saying either isn't true, or that it wasn't the sun's luminosity in totality. I have provided cited evidence from the source itself to not only provide an understanding of the world but also show that this is indeed how things work and this feat is valid.

I've already done this multiple times. And now, I've found a quote from the text itself, where you agree that statements like that don't imply that Solus' luminosity in totality was absorbed, with previous events involving the Gigas Cedar. The words used don't substantiate a higher interpretation, so despite verse mechanics leaving a higher interpretation consistent, we shouldn't go with it.

 

[CurrySenpai]

And again, my only point with bringing up your earlier scan is that you're happy to take "The Gigas Cedar.... greedily absorbed all of Solus' light" as not implying it absorbed literally all the light emitted from Solus, but you're not willing to do the same for the feat in the OP despite the similar phrasing.

The point I am bringing up is that it does not matter, it is irrelevant, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. He's not doing the thing we're discussing, so it just doesn't matter.

He is using the Enhanced Armament and in his head going "This thing gobbled up all of Solus' light, so this beam will beat her light beam." I have no idea how many times I'm going to have to say this, but it literally does not matter because he is doing something completely different to what is the subject.

I guess if you want me to concede or change my mind then I guess it can count towards his perception of the sword's memories and abilities itself so it could be supporting evidence, why the f not.

Because of that, all the other reality warping feats in the series you keep listing are, at this point, completely and utterly inconsequential. Please stop wasting my time with them.

This feels incredibly rude, no lie. And honestly, I do not wish to communicate with passive-aggressive or rude people, so I'm just going to leave this here and wait for Grath to show up again.

 

[Agnaa]

The point I am bringing up is that it does not matter, it is irrelevant, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. He's not doing the thing we're discussing, so it just doesn't matter.

He is using the Enhanced Armament and in his head going "This thing gobbled up all of Solus' light, so this beam will beat her light beam." I have no idea how many times I'm going to have to say this, but it literally does not matter because he is doing something completely different to what is the subject.

I guess if you want me to concede or change my mind then I guess it can count towards his perception of the sword's memories and abilities itself so it could be supporting evidence, why the f not.

You're right that the actions taking place in that scene are irrelevant; I think it's relevant because it shows a contradiction in how you interpret that sort of wording. With this historical comment you must interpret it as not referring to Solus' entire emitted luminosity, yet for the Release Recollection you hold a higher interpretation.

This feels incredibly rude, no lie. And honestly, I do not wish to communicate with passive-aggressive or rude people, so I'm just going to leave this here and wait for Grath to show up again.

Welp, I didn't mean it that way, so if anyone here can give me advice on how to better phrase that sort of thing in the future, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I understand the argument, it just doesn't meet our standards for evidence.

If there was a character who had 40 different feats of reality warping, operating on fairly wide scales (such as, having given everyone on the planet a sore stomach). And then, they had a feat where they said "Let's heat things up", before narration describes the nearby land lighting on fire and a nearby lake evaporating. We would not calculate this as them boiling all the world's oceans and coating the entire surface of the planet with fire. It wouldn't exactly be a huge leap for their reality warping to be able to do that, but the text itself doesn't concretely establish that happening. Going from showing me 5 of those different reality warping feats to 20 of them would change nothing about this.

This feels like goalpost moving if I'm being honest. Now that we've concretely established that Kirito's reality warping could at least feasibly absorb Solus' light (something you seem to agree with in this post based on the "it wouldn't exactly be a huge leap" comment), the issue is that the text doesn't establish that he absorbed all of Solus' light. The problem is that the text does establish that, and now you're ignoring what we've been debating for like 5 pages. Moving from "nothing proves Kirito absorbed all of Solus' light or could've done so, because the text could just be exaggerating" to "okay, he could've done it, but that doesn't matter because the text doesn't say he did" is, in my eyes, pretty scummy.

Addendum: If your response to this is that the "it wouldn't be a huge leap" comment was only in reference to your specific hypothetical and not SAO, then why bring it up at all? What's the point?

 

[CurrySenpai]

You're right that the actions taking place in that scene are irrelevant; I think it's relevant because it shows a contradiction in how you interpret that sort of wording. With this historical comment you must interpret it as not referring to Solus' entire emitted luminosity, yet for the Release Recollection you hold a higher interpretation.

That is mainly because Release Recollection is a higher form/ability, but I guess I will say that now that I’ve looked it over and you’ve shown my inconsistency, Kirito was probably being literal, or at least literal in a sense of “This is how the Gigas Cedar’s memories are, so it can do this.” which would obviously help it manifest this later. So if anything, I believe this could support my claim as to the true nature of the swords potency.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Welp, I didn't mean it that way, so if anyone here can give me advice on how to better phrase that sort of thing in the future, I'd appreciate it.

I’ll dm you, would rather not air something out in a CRT (I don’t have personal beef just don’t wanna talk about it here)

 

[Agnaa]

This feels like goalpost moving if I'm being honest. Now that we've concretely established that Kirito's reality warping could at least feasibly absorb Solus' light (something you seem to agree with in this post based on the "it wouldn't exactly be a huge leap" comment), the issue is that the text doesn't establish that he absorbed all of Solus' light. The problem is that the text does establish that, and now you're ignoring what we've been debating for like 5 pages. Moving from "nothing proves Kirito absorbed all of Solus' light or could've done so, because the text could just be exaggerating" to "okay, he could've done it, but that doesn't matter because the text doesn't say he did" is, in my eyes, pretty scummy.

Addendum: If your response to this is that the "it wouldn't be a huge leap" comment was only in reference to your specific hypothetical and not SAO, then why bring it up at all? What's the point?

The text doesn't establish that; that has been a part of my argument since the very start.

My argument was never that Kirito lacked the range, reality warping ability, or anything like that.

My arguments have only been:

1. The wording doesn't imply absorbing Solus' entire luminosity.
2. This ability may not be combat applicable on opponents who aren't weak to darkness (I soon retracted this).
3. The physics of the feat make more sense with something more eclipse-like, rather than absorbing the star's entire luminosity back to the source.

Your claim of goalpost-moving is incorrect.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The text doesn't establish that; that has been a part of my argument since the very start.

My argument was never that Kirito lacked the range, reality warping ability, or anything like that.

My arguments have only been:

1. The wording doesn't imply absorbing Solus' entire luminosity.
2. This ability may not be combat applicable on opponents who aren't weak to darkness (I soon retracted this).
3. The physics of the feat make more sense with something more eclipse-like, rather than absorbing the star's entire luminosity back to the source.

Your claim of goalpost-moving is incorrect.

And we're right back to square one. You yourself said it wouldn't be that big of a stretch (which I have quoted and highlighted below, in case you have forgotten), which you are now going back on and saying "actually it would be that big of a stretch because of the wording of the feat".

If there was a character who had 40 different feats of reality warping, operating on fairly wide scales (such as, having given everyone on the planet a sore stomach). And then, they had a feat where they said "Let's heat things up", before narration describes the nearby land lighting on fire and a nearby lake evaporating. We would not calculate this as them boiling all the world's oceans and coating the entire surface of the planet with fire. It wouldn't exactly be a huge leap for their reality warping to be able to do that, but the text itself doesn't concretely establish that happening.

Let me ask something so that we can hopefully decide on which aspect of the debate to focus on - Do you believe that Kirito absorbing all of Solus' light is possible, using the context Curry has provided, or do you think it is too major of a leap? You seem to have argued in favor of both points, even though they are incompatible (I would hope that you can understand that "the text said he did this thing, but was clearly exaggerating" and "the text did not say he did that thing" are contradictory sentiments), so I would appreciate the clarification.

 

[Agnaa]

And we're right back to square one. You yourself said it wouldn't be that big of a stretch (which I have quoted and highlighted below, in case you have forgotten), which you are now going back on and saying "actually it would be that big of a stretch because of the wording of the feat".

Yeah, in the same way that it wouldn't be a stretch for a character with Reality Warping who has forcibly transformed other characters into dogs, mice, lions, and geese to be able to forcibly transform a character into a cat. We still wouldn't include that on a profile unless they'd actually done so.

Let me ask something so that we can hopefully decide on which aspect of the debate to focus on - Do you believe that Kirito absorbing all of Solus' light is possible, using the context Curry has provided, or do you think it is too major of a leap? You seem to have argued in favor of both points, even though they are incompatible (I would hope that you can understand that "the text said he did this thing, but was clearly exaggerating" and "the text did not say he did that thing" are contradictory sentiments), so I would appreciate the clarification.

I think it doesn't go against the verse's mechanics, but I think it's not substantiated by the text. The text did not say he did the thing, is my stance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, in the same way that it wouldn't be a stretch for a character with Reality Warping who has forcibly transformed other characters into dogs, mice, lions, and geese to be able to forcibly transform a character into a cat. We still wouldn't include that on a profile unless they'd actually done so.

In a vacuum, I would be inclined to agree. However, what if the text does say he can transform someone into a cat? There may be alternate explanations for that statement, sure, but combining the context of "could reasonably turn someone into a cat" with "was stated to have turned someone into a cat" would make it pretty unambiguous.

However, the issue lies in how, whenever you seem to accept one of those statements, the other seems to just vanish from your perception. We argued over the validity of Kirito absorbing all of Solus' light - How the text could be interpreted in other ways, how the feat would be incongruent with the laws of physics, and so on - for the majority of this thread. The driving force of this thread has always been "can Kirito actually, logically do what he was stated to have done?", and you have held the position of "no, he cannot" for the longest time. Of course, in order for you to hold that position at all, you would at the very least have to acknowledge that the text did claim he can do that, even though you do not believe the statement to be logically possible.

Now that we've conclusively proven that Kirito could, at least hypothetically, absorb all of Solus' light, you seem weirdly insistent that it doesn't matter anyways because nothing implies he could do that. I know why you're arguing this point - After all, you've admitted it's at least possible in theory, so if we had someone say "yeah he can do that", then you would be forced to admit the feat has more validity than you initially believed - but you are doing so by just ignoring the point you've been arguing almost nonstop.

It's disingenuous to just ignore what you've previously said and switch to a new stance every time your old stance has concrete evidence going against it - Not as a result of changing your mind, but as a result of just not wanting to admit you're wrong.

I think it doesn't go against the verse's mechanics, but I think it's not substantiated by the text. The text did not say he did the thing, is my stance.

This is wrong. The text verbatim says he absorbed all of its light. Now, I'm aware of your prior grievances with the feat, but those lie within the logistics of "is this the most realistic outcome?". Not an unreasonable stance, to be sure, but now that we've gone through great lengths to prove that yes, it is a realistic outcome, you are now very reticent to acknowledge that the text ever said he could absorb all of Solus' light, even though that's the exact thing we've been debating for eight pages now. If you do not believe the text said that - and I would find that hard to believe, given it's literally right below this paragraph - then what were you arguing over? Why didn't you just lead with "the feat is invalid because the feat he was claimed to be capable of is not actually in the text" instead of pages and pages of semantics?

 

[Agnaa]

However, the issue lies in how, whenever you seem to accept one of those statements, the other seems to just vanish from your perception. We argued over the validity of Kirito absorbing all of Solus' light - How the text could be interpreted in other ways, how the feat would be incongruent with the laws of physics, and so on - for the majority of this thread. The driving force of this thread has always been "can Kirito actually, logically do what he was stated to have done?", and you have held the position of "no, he cannot" for the longest time.

Notice how these prior conversations weren't about the logic of the verse, it was about the real-world physics. How it'd be quite weird for light to immediately reappear if he absorbed all of Solus' light, due to the lightspeed delay. The current topic about verse mechanics doesn't really interface with that. The idea that he could just put some but not all of the light back was floated before, but was viewed by me as unlikely.

Of course, in order for you to hold that position at all, you would at the very least have to acknowledge that the text did claim he can do that, even though you do not believe the statement to be logically possible.

No, it just requires the ability to engage in hypotheticals. I can simultaneously argue "this isn't supported by the text" and "this isn't consistent with real-world physics".

Now that we've conclusively proven that Kirito could, at least hypothetically, absorb all of Solus' light, you seem weirdly insistent that it doesn't matter anyways because nothing implies he could do that. I know why you're arguing this point - After all, you've admitted it's at least possible in theory, so if we had someone say "yeah he can do that", then you would be forced to admit the feat has more validity than you initially believed - but you are doing so by just ignoring the point you've been arguing almost nonstop.

It's disingenuous to just ignore what you've previously said and switch to a new stance every time your old stance has concrete evidence going against it - Not as a result of changing your mind, but as a result of just not wanting to admit you're wrong.

I am not ignoring any point I've made, which is why you won't be able to link even one post of mine arguing that Kirito lacks the reality warping/range for a high interpretation of this feat.

This is wrong. The text verbatim says he absorbed all of its light. Now, I'm aware of your prior grievances with the feat, but those lie within the logistics of "is this the most realistic outcome?". Not an unreasonable stance, to be sure, but now that we've gone through great lengths to prove that yes, it is a realistic outcome, you are now very reticent to acknowledge that the text ever said he could absorb all of Solus' light, even though that's the exact thing we've been debating for eight pages now. If you do not believe the text said that - and I would find that hard to believe, given it's literally right below this paragraph - then what were you arguing over? Why didn't you just lead with "the feat is invalid because the feat he was claimed to be capable of is not actually in the text" instead of pages and pages of semantics?

I've already explained this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen times.

So despite you saying "Why didn't you lead with this?" I, in fact, did. Actually, this is surprisingly the fourth time I've faced such an accusation over arguments I have, indeed, already made.

In a vacuum, I would be inclined to agree. However, what if the text does say he can transform someone into a cat? There may be alternate explanations for that statement, sure, but combining the context of "could reasonably turn someone into a cat" with "was stated to have turned someone into a cat" would make it pretty unambiguous.

Yeah, but as I've explained before, I don't think the statement here is actually that clear, when we look at how people actually use words in the real world. Refer to the previous 15 posts I've made on this subject if you want elaboration. I'd personally recommend the eighth one as being the best summary.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Things I found to help this out a bit.

Higa Takeru, the developer of the game, says that Kirito is stronger than the 4 super accounts, all of which are Solus; Goddess of the Sun, Terraria; Goddess of the Earth, Stacia; Goddess of Creation, and Vecta; God of Darkness.

Here are some scans from the compendium of Last Recollection (SAO Game) that goes over Solus

And more scans for Release Recollection, further cementing that it relies on a strong mental image of the memories and the powers unleashed.

So now we have Kirito upscaling to the Goddess of the Sun (and every other god), and more confirmation that Kirito and the people's memories of the Gigas Cedar gobbling up all of Solus' light would make it actually do such a thing literally.

 

[Agnaa]

Only really new stuff there is Solus scaling. So, what tier is Solus?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Only really new stuff there is Solus scaling. So, what tier is Solus?

I... wouldn't know. Underworld legend isn't really explored in-depth and the original developers/users of the accounts don't really talk much about them, the full extent of their powers really isn't shown.

 

[CurrySenpai]

IT's officially been a month today.

 

[DMUA]

Here are some scans from the compendium of Last Recollection (SAO Game) that goes over Solus

The game verse is also a different continuity that mixes up events by a bit and sometimes sidesteps how the normal canon presents stuff.

I... wouldn't know. Underworld legend isn't really explored in-depth and the original developers/users of the accounts don't really talk much about them, the full extent of their powers really isn't shown.

7-B.