- 40,457
- 12,924
Alright, from here on out, I'll be editing out the unnecessarily harsh, rude, and mean comments. From both sides. Call me out for censorship, idc. I just want to keep things civil for once on a Bleach thread.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Regenerationn Page Missing Type Clarification on Souls
- Thread starter AppleLord
- Start date
- Status
- 15,332
- 7,560
Going to sleep. Calling dibs on this thread, lol
- 16,967
- 12,074
.... Matthew you just said Hadou 90 destroys atoms. It doesn't this is the description. "Kurohitsugi is a high-level Kidō which seals its target in a black spiritual coffin.[1] The practitioner generates purple/black spiritual energy, which envelops the target with a powerful torrent of gravity before taking the form of a box of black energy, covered in several spear-like protrusions which pierce the box, lacerating the one inside from head to toe. "
Nothing about atoms.
Nothing about atoms.
- 5,352
- 894
Goodnight Kep, hopefully you will have a thread to return to.
- 15,332
- 7,560
I mean, whatever. I'll just be picking off stuff I heavily disagree with from both sides and voicing it.
Anyway, going off.
Anyway, going off.
- 32,343
- 20,268
@Knight
1. You copied that off the wiki.
2. I said that there were translations that apparently reffered to that. I couldn't find it. However, Aizen does talk about disintegrating Ichigo with Black Coffin in Chapter 418. Disintegration implies there is something tangible and physical to disintegrate.
But I already proved the Reishi is composed of molecules.
1. You copied that off the wiki.
2. I said that there were translations that apparently reffered to that. I couldn't find it. However, Aizen does talk about disintegrating Ichigo with Black Coffin in Chapter 418. Disintegration implies there is something tangible and physical to disintegrate.
But I already proved the Reishi is composed of molecules.
- 40,457
- 12,924
Btw, I'm still on my own side on Aizen needing confirmation of either being hit with existence erasure or confirmation of having his consciousness deleted to qualify for Mid-Godly Regenerationn, and confirmation of regenerating from his consciousness to qualify for Low-Godly Regenerationn.
My arguments are completely different than Matt's, due to me agreeing (from what I can gather, anyway) that they're at the very least soul-esque, so continuing the back-and-forth leaves my arguments unaddressed. If you disagree with mine, I'd be happy to debate, whether on here or on a wall.
My arguments are completely different than Matt's, due to me agreeing (from what I can gather, anyway) that they're at the very least soul-esque, so continuing the back-and-forth leaves my arguments unaddressed. If you disagree with mine, I'd be happy to debate, whether on here or on a wall.
- 16,967
- 12,074
Matthew Schroeder said:
don't use the anime to try to make it seem like he imply it destroys atoms.
That's stated once, and even then it's extremely vague
- 32,343
- 20,268
More evidence that Reishi is physical beyond it being made of molecules:
Rukia's body is made of cells and it has a freezing point. She can even freeze her own molecules at absolute zero, and does so by controling her Reishi.
Rukia's body is made of cells and it has a freezing point. She can even freeze her own molecules at absolute zero, and does so by controling her Reishi.
- 40,457
- 12,924
Alright, on one side, that is hard evidence that Matt posted. On the other hand, IFF Matt was debunked before, it could be contradictory, and even then, it could be Rukia's human body (If Rukia having her human body is stupid, cut me some slack. I made it to episode 3, and only saw the Soul Society Arc as an abridged parody)
- 32,343
- 20,268
@Cal
No, Rukia is fighting a Quincy inside Soul Society.
No, Rukia is fighting a Quincy inside Soul Society.
- 40,457
- 12,924
Though, I have to say this...and it does lean to one side for now...
If Rukia's a soul, how would she be able to make her body like it's dead (That grammar probably sucked...)? As a soul, she shouldn't have functioning body parts.
If Rukia's a soul, how would she be able to make her body like it's dead (That grammar probably sucked...)? As a soul, she shouldn't have functioning body parts.
- 40,457
- 12,924
Thanks for the clarification. As you can tell, I know nothing about Bleach. All my arguments are based on how this situation should be treated in general, rather than based on context.Matthew Schroeder said:
- 32,343
- 20,268
Bleach has dead people being killed a lot, Cal. Lol
I mean, look at this sick dead guy needing medical equipment to breathe air.
I mean, look at this sick dead guy needing medical equipment to breathe air.
- 16,967
- 12,074
Shinigami don't have cells like normal humans and objects do. They have spiritual cells. That's not anything we're denying. It functions differently from your normal cells in the sense that it's spiritual. Not psychical.
- 32,343
- 20,268
That scan just proves what I say. Spirits are intangible in the Living world, but they are 100% tangible and physical in Soul Society. Because of how the two worlds work differently.
Reishi and Kishi work very similarly actually.
Reishi can also be called "Spiritrons", just like Kishi is made of Electrons, Protons and Neutrons. And these Spiritrons can group together to form molecules, which presumably group together to form cells.
And freezing works identically for Kishi and Reishi. Molecules slow the colder it is, with - 273.5 Celsius being Absolute Zero where all molecules stop.
Reishi and Kishi work very similarly actually.
Reishi can also be called "Spiritrons", just like Kishi is made of Electrons, Protons and Neutrons. And these Spiritrons can group together to form molecules, which presumably group together to form cells.
And freezing works identically for Kishi and Reishi. Molecules slow the colder it is, with - 273.5 Celsius being Absolute Zero where all molecules stop.
- 5,352
- 894
So from what i have gathered Matt has hard evidence that Reishi/Souls are made out of molecules.
Aizen was "completely destroyed" by Ichigo but thats just plain out too vague to assume anything higher than Aizen being atomized, as such i agree with Matt on this topic.
Also please be gentle if im interpreting anything wrong as my knowledge on Bleach is limited and such my opinion is made from what i have seen in this thread.
Aizen was "completely destroyed" by Ichigo but thats just plain out too vague to assume anything higher than Aizen being atomized, as such i agree with Matt on this topic.
Also please be gentle if im interpreting anything wrong as my knowledge on Bleach is limited and such my opinion is made from what i have seen in this thread.
- 16,967
- 12,074
ANNNND DEBUNKED
- 32,343
- 20,268
Is this the Official Viz Media translation? Viz is notorious for absolutely botching up their translations. They did it for Dragon Ball and they did it with Saint Seiya. I have confidence in saying that the Scanlations are more literal and reliable. The Brazilian Translation I checked also talks about molecules in it.
And that scan is still talking about Molecular Bonds. Just more subtly.
Official Translation =/= Accurate Translation. Look at early Final Fantasy games.
And that scan is still talking about Molecular Bonds. Just more subtly.
Official Translation =/= Accurate Translation. Look at early Final Fantasy games.
- 21,783
- 4,826
Spirits being solid in the spirit world isn't a contraction of them being intangible in the human world.
It's a spirit world for a reason. The entire world is made of the same spiritual particles that souls are made of, of course they would interact with each other as though they were both physical things.
I also don't understand why spirits having "spirit particles" somehow disqualifies them from being actual spirits. That's stupid. Rukia outright says that humans shouldn't be able to touch souls.
Plenty of fiction has spiritual mass. Masadaverse talks about characters having higher spiritual mass, do we now say they aren't souls because they have mass? No, it's "spiritual mass". It's just how it works there.
It's a spirit world for a reason. The entire world is made of the same spiritual particles that souls are made of, of course they would interact with each other as though they were both physical things.
I also don't understand why spirits having "spirit particles" somehow disqualifies them from being actual spirits. That's stupid. Rukia outright says that humans shouldn't be able to touch souls.
Plenty of fiction has spiritual mass. Masadaverse talks about characters having higher spiritual mass, do we now say they aren't souls because they have mass? No, it's "spiritual mass". It's just how it works there.
- 32,343
- 20,268
- 40,457
- 12,924
Coming from a Zelda fan who looked at both, the English and the Japanese translations for the series, Matt's right. Official translation Ôëá Accurate translation.
- 16,967
- 12,074
- 150
- 4
isnt it a rule that we have to use offcial translations on this site?
- 32,343
- 20,268
@Monarch
That's not the just of the argument. Is Souls in Bleach depicting every single characteristic of a physical being, as well as being made of molecules and cells that share the same properties of our own molecules and cells. Coupled with the afterlife in Bleach being more like a continuating of the living life. It all points out to Souls in Bleach being made out of physical matter from the Spirit World that is intangible and invislbe in the Living World, due to both being separate planes of existence that work differently.
What it boils down to is this: Destroying a soul in Bleach =/= Destroying a soul in a verse where souls are completely intangible and not made of matter.
That's not the just of the argument. Is Souls in Bleach depicting every single characteristic of a physical being, as well as being made of molecules and cells that share the same properties of our own molecules and cells. Coupled with the afterlife in Bleach being more like a continuating of the living life. It all points out to Souls in Bleach being made out of physical matter from the Spirit World that is intangible and invislbe in the Living World, due to both being separate planes of existence that work differently.
What it boils down to is this: Destroying a soul in Bleach =/= Destroying a soul in a verse where souls are completely intangible and not made of matter.
- 32,343
- 20,268
No. We have recurrently gone with Fan Translations that are proven to be more accurate, and, often even better, finding the RAW Original Text and having someone tells us what's written in it.Champion234 said:
- 40,457
- 12,924
Wait, guys? A thought occurs...
Whether or not Bleach characters are what Matt says or what Knight says, you both agreed that they have cells and molecules of the like, regardless of their composition.
Doesn't that by itself disqualify Aizen from getting Mid-Godly Regenerationn? Even if the characters do function differently, Aizen was still reduced to the soul version of ashes. I've used this analogy for too many things already, but it's no different than giving a soulless robot who reassembles itself from dust Mid-High Regenerationn.
Whether or not Bleach characters are what Matt says or what Knight says, you both agreed that they have cells and molecules of the like, regardless of their composition.
Doesn't that by itself disqualify Aizen from getting Mid-Godly Regenerationn? Even if the characters do function differently, Aizen was still reduced to the soul version of ashes. I've used this analogy for too many things already, but it's no different than giving a soulless robot who reassembles itself from dust Mid-High Regenerationn.
- 16,967
- 12,074
Cal he wasn't reduced to ashes. His body was gone that's why we're arguing. Nothing was left of him, dust, vapor or ash. At the very least that should be High regen.
- 32,343
- 20,268
Sure, nothing that you can see.
Are you Superman's secret identity? Can you see individual molecules? We know souls in Bleach are made of those. So it's 100% probable that Aizen wasn't completely destroyed, and that molecules remained and he regenerated from those. Making it High Regen.
Cal is 100% correct here. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it exist. Look at your hand right now. There are thousands of bacteria swarming on top of it. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there
Are you Superman's secret identity? Can you see individual molecules? We know souls in Bleach are made of those. So it's 100% probable that Aizen wasn't completely destroyed, and that molecules remained and he regenerated from those. Making it High Regen.
Cal is 100% correct here. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it exist. Look at your hand right now. There are thousands of bacteria swarming on top of it. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there
?
- 32,343
- 20,268
Aizen is a souless monster who needs to be stopped.
- 16,967
- 12,074
Hold up, I'm gonna get IMadeThis to comment here since he's much more knowledgeable about Bleach than anyone here
- 40,457
- 12,924
No, my friend. We don't. Translations can be quite inaccurate. See things like Mewtwo creating a planetary hurricane in the dub, when it's only around an island in the sub, or Zelda's Golden Goddesses having flown in from a distant nebula, when instead they came from a heaven outside of time and space.Champion234 said:
- 32,343
- 20,268
Whoever you bring, you can debunk that Reishi is made out of molecules and cells that interact with cold exactly the same as our molecules and cells do.
- 21,783
- 4,826
Spiritual matter. Spiritual cells. Spiritual molecules. All of which is invisible and intangible in the human world, like pretty much any soul ever.Matthew Schroeder said:
Burning the soul doesn't make much sense seeing as the soul isn't a physical thing with matter and thus shouldn't really be affected by heat. Neither does electrocuting the soul, seeing as a soul doesn't have electrons seeing as it isn't made of matter. They really shouldn't be able to rot or be poisoned either. "they share properties with normal matter" is not a good argument.
Coupled with the afterlife in Bleach being more like a continuating of the living life. It all points out to Souls in Bleach being made out of physical matter from the Spirit World that is intangible and invislbe in the Living World, due to both being separate planes of existence that work differently.
"a continuating of the living life" - yeah, like a lot of other souls? This isn't an argument. It does not prove that Bleach souls are not like normal souls. You yourself gave the example of Egyptian farmers in their afterlife, and there are plenty of people who believe life after death is literally that. It doesn't mean anything.
"physical matter from the spirit world that is intangible and invisible in the living world due to both being separate planes of existence that work differently" - and....? I don't get how this proves they are different from "normal" souls either. You've accepted that they are intangible and invisible in the human world, which is pretty much like 90% of other souls. And then you say that because they are physical in the spirit world, they can't be "normal" souls - even though that is the spirit world so of course they can interact with each other physically as normal.
What it boils down to is this: Destroying a soul in Bleach =/= Destroying a soul in a verse where souls are completely intangible and not made of matter.
In the human world, souls are completely intangible unless you have spiritual power of your own. And they aren't made of physical matter either, they are made of spiritual matter, which is not a concept that has ever barred any other verse from their souls qualifying as actual souls.
- 32,343
- 20,268
@Monarch
By your logic Cthulhu is a soul because he is invisible and intangible.
My point is that souls in Bleach do not work like souls in 99% of Verses, and cannot be considered intangible invisible souls because they are made of cells and molecules and thus cannot be used to give someone Mid-Godly. They are completely physical in Soul Society.
How many times need I explain that in fiction it is common from matter from two different realities can be intangible in each other's realities?
And yes, I did bring up Egyptian and Norse Afterlives, and I wouldn't use those for Mid-Godly Regen either. In Egyptian Mythology, you literally take your body with you to the Afterlife, which is why people were mummified, and in Norse Mythology you can literally ride to the Afterlife if you have a flying horse.
Also called Alfredo boi to debunk you on Masadaverse but that should be done elsewhere.
By your logic Cthulhu is a soul because he is invisible and intangible.
My point is that souls in Bleach do not work like souls in 99% of Verses, and cannot be considered intangible invisible souls because they are made of cells and molecules and thus cannot be used to give someone Mid-Godly. They are completely physical in Soul Society.
How many times need I explain that in fiction it is common from matter from two different realities can be intangible in each other's realities?
And yes, I did bring up Egyptian and Norse Afterlives, and I wouldn't use those for Mid-Godly Regen either. In Egyptian Mythology, you literally take your body with you to the Afterlife, which is why people were mummified, and in Norse Mythology you can literally ride to the Afterlife if you have a flying horse.
Also called Alfredo boi to debunk you on Masadaverse but that should be done elsewhere.
- 21,783
- 4,826
Now that is a strawman if I ever saw one.Matthew Schroeder said:
- 32,343
- 20,268
It isn't. The matter he is made of is intangible and unknowable and most of the time invisible in our universe, because it is from another universe.
That doesn't mean he is a soul being.
That doesn't mean he is a soul being.
- Status
