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Regarding Time Slow vs Time Stop

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Matthew Schroeder said:
  • Time Stop is the same thing as Time Slow but infinitely better, meaning it requires infinitely more power / hax to do.
It kinda is, you know. No matter how ridiculously small the fraction of the normal flow of time it is slowed to, it will NEVER, EVER come close to a complete halt since there will always be even smaller fractions of an instant. The only wrong assumption is assuming you need infinitely more power to do the hax. Though you DO need infinite speed to move in time stop via speed alone, while you don't at all for slow.
Click to expand...
 
They're only treated as different abilities once in a blue, limited to something with status ailments. And again, asymptote example, if you want to use specific numbers. Time stop is 0, time slow is the limit approaching 0 where f(x)=1/(x^2)
 
It's not illogical when it's true. A time-slow can never be a time-stop.

Final Fantasy isn't the standard.
 
Kepekley23 said:
A too long, didn't read would be:
  • To move in stopped time without hax would require you to have infinite speed.
  • To move in slowed time without hax would require you more speed, but it'd still be finite.
The difference between infinity and finite numbers is infinite. Time-Slow being a different type of time manip is not the point we're trying to make at all.

The point is, Time-Stop is an infinitely better application of time-slow, that requires an infinitely larger stat.
Click to expand...
This assumption comes from nowhere and is utterly destroyed by an application of Occam's Razor. What is more likely: That to execute Time Stop you need infinitely better Time hax than Time Slow, or that they are different abilities?

The later.

Also resisting Time Stop via speed =/= Resisting it via natural resistances, the comparison is fallacious. It's like saying Mind Manipulation is better than Soul Manipulation because it can still work on beings without a soul.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Fate
I already stated why comparing it to Absolute Zero is fallacious.

Absolute Zero is a set value. - 273.5 Celsius. You need to be that exact number to reach it.

Infinity isn't a number. Infinity is a concept, the number of numbers available in a complete set. Saying that to reach time stop you need to do a time slow x infinity is illogical, and utterly wrong when looking at fiction, where they are more often than not treated as different abilities.
Click to expand...
Yes, and your reasoning on this equals saying whatever ridiculously big number should be treated as qualitatively superior to infinity. Which frankly speaking, is actually even more absurd than considering a temperature higher than absolute zero to be possibly effective on someone who resists it.

So your point is far more utterly wrong on this regard.
 
I am pretty sure the easier theng to think is that time stop is better time slow. No one thinking about it normally will say "infinitely better" but most people will say that time stop is better time slow.
 
Halting of a flow =/= Manipulation of a flow. They are completely different mechanics. Resistance to one does not equate resisting the other, much like resisting atomization does not equate resisting matter manipulation.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's like saying Mind Manipulation is better than Soul Manipulation because it can still work on beings without a soul.
Click to expand...
Those abilities have no similarities at all Matt. Time slow and time stop do have similiarities since their functions are very identical.
 
.... Even with... the idea that infinity doesn't exist. Doesn't that just means that Time stop is basically very very very very very superior still in comparison to Time slow?

In a way can't it also be compared that Time stop is 4D not moving, 3D becoming infinite, while time slowing is at its best, being close to infinite but not quite reaching, and not influencing 4D? Since the Fourth Dimension can sometimes be compared to time.


And that's a good one. Also rpg game logic can be hard to implement sometimes too so that already makes it a hassle to manage them. Last msg of the day here bai
 
This , like most things, should be taken on a case by case basis. If its like Over Lord with specific abilities to resist Time Stop, then of course it doesnt apply to time deceloration. If its something like Big Order, then resistence to Time stop would apply to time deceloration
 
> This assumption comes from nowhere and is utterly destroyed by an application of Occam's Razor. What is more likely: That to execute Time Stop you need infinitely better Time hax than Time Slow, or that they are different abilities?

The former, since that's what's proven in real life. Occam's Razor operates on evidence, afterall.

> Also resisting Time Stop via speed =/= Resisting it via natural resistances, the comparison is fallacious. It's like saying Mind Manipulation is better than Soul Manipulation because it can still work on beings without a soul.

Mind Manipulation has nothing to do with Soul Manipulation. Time-Stop has plenty of stuff to do with Time-Slow. This comparison doesn't hold true.
 
The end result is far more important. The end result of time stopping is extremely better and qualitatively superior to the end result of whatever time slow out there, no matter how advanced.

Saying someone who resists the end result of time stop but doesn't deal with an effect that is ridiculously inferior makes 0 sense, honestly.
 
@Fate

"Yes, and your reasoning on this equals saying whatever ridiculously big number should be treated as qualitatively superior to infinity. Which frankly speaking, is actually even more absurd than considering a temperature higher than absolute zero to be possibly effective on someone who resists it."

Incorrect, the fallacy begins in assuming that Time Stop is Time Slow but infinitely better. If that were the case, it would time infinitely more energy to execute, infinitely more effort to cast, and infinitely better hax to have in the first place.

Making this assumption infinitely less likely than it simply being a different power, which I have already argued extensively as to why it is, with examples. Comparing it to degrees of matter destruction or cold is fallacious.
 
@Matt

Time stop is a set value too. It's 0. If time is stopped, something is happening in 0 seconds.

It is the same as AZ. It's a limit that you aren't supposed to reach. But if you do, of course it's more impressive than simply approaching it.

In relativity, as you get closer to the speed of light, time starts dilating but you never reach a point where it stands still.

In thermodynamic, you keep getting temperatures lower and lower but you will never reach 0K.
 
@Kep

"The former, since that's what's proven in real life."

Time Slow and Time Stop don't exist in real life.

"Mind Manipulation has nothing to do with Soul Manipulation. Time-Stop has plenty of stuff to do with Time-Slow. This comparison doesn't hold true."

They only have a superficial comparison, and now you are ignoring the context in what I gave this statement, much like other replies have ignored the full context of my post. What I meant is that stating that because you can resist one ability through sheer speed and the other not doesn't make it superior to the other, much like resisting soul Manipulation by being souless does not make it inferior than another arbitrary manipulation.

In fact, this speed argument is utterly bogus.

Say a Mach 8,000 and a 500c character are both affected under a x100 Time Slow. The Mach 8,000 character will become a Mach 80 character, while the 500c character will become a 5c character.

Both characters are affected by the time slow. The only way to resist Time Slow via speed is through Infinite Speed, where you'll have an equation of infinity / finite number = infinity.

So all the speed comparison proves is that they are equal.
 
That's the point, in its truest form time stop IS a type of time slow. Time stop is slowing time to the point where it's 0. While, time slow is slowing time, but never reaching the 0.
 
Kaltias said:
@Matt
In thermodynamic, you keep getting temperatures lower and lower but you will never reach 0K.
Click to expand...
That's actually a bad example since characters in fiction can go hundreds of times colder than Absolute Zero, or even infinitely colder.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Incorrect, the fallacy begins in assuming that Time Stop is Time Slow but infinitely better. If that were the case, it would time infinitely more energy to execute, infinitely more effort to cast, and infinitely better hax to have in the first place.

Making this assumption infinitely less likely than it simply being a different power, which I have already argued extensively as to why it is, with examples. Comparing it to degrees of matter destruction or cold is fallacious.
Click to expand...
Wrong. Your first paragraph is the part that uses some kind of headcanon in regards to the ability. My point is literally backed up by the fact that no matter how much you slow down, there will always be infinitely smaller fractions of an instant, meaning you can NEVER reach a complete halt same way you can't reach infinity by going up.

While when complete halting, there's nothing else. It's stopped, done. You also need infinite speed to be moving in stopped time if you're counting on speed alone. While you don't for time slow. So really, my point on the end result of time stop being infinitely better than Time Slow as far as end results are concerned is pretty right.

Same way you can have different sources and ways of generating heat but as far as whatever else is concerned, the temperature they're emitting (a.k.a: End result) is the part that matters.

You're focusing WAAAAAY too much in mechanics at this point and ignoring the fact that the end result of Time Stop will always be ridiculously better than time slow can ever hope to be, mechanics be danmed.
 
Acacia vs Sky Deer

Sky deer possesses time dilatation that makes 1 second = 10,000,000 years or so iirc. Acacia iis capable of resisting that with his own time dilatation.

Then, Acacia pulls timestop and Sky Deer is frozen in place with no chance to fight back.

Its the exact same ability (it is), only Acacia's is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sky Deer's.
 
Time top i an application of time manip. Time low too. It' not like if you have time low you have full time manip. For the analogy, think that: Time manip quantum manip; time top macro quantum manip; time low ubatomic manip
 
That's actually a bad example since characters in fiction can go hundreds of times colder than Absolute Zero, or even infinitely colder.

wan't it outlie?
 
That's actually a bad example since characters in fiction can go hundreds of times colder than Absolute Zero, or even infinitely colder.

And there are characters who can time stop infinite speed characters or higher. Same diff, so it's not a bad example.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
That's actually a bad example since characters in fiction can go hundreds of times colder than Absolute Zero, or even infinitely colder.
Click to expand...
Ok, that's fiction not caring about what makes sense.

They can also go FTL without being High 3-A.

That wasn't my point. It was, there are some cases where something is literally a worse version of something else.

That's the case with ice manip vs AZ, it's the case with quantum matter manip vs atomic, and it's also the case with time slow vs time stop
 
Think of it like a paralysis poison: if I inject enough to stop a human, but you can still resist it, then you can resist a lower dose that should only slow a human
 
> Time Slow and Time Stop don't exist in real life.

You missed the point of what I meant. The concepts of time-slow and time-stop both exist in real life, and it's common knowledge that a number can never reach infinity. Time-Slow keeps slowing time down, but it will never reach zero.

> They only have a superficial comparison, and now you are ignoring the context in what I gave this statement, much like other replies have ignored the full context of my post. What I meant is that stating that because you can resist one ability through sheer speed and the other not doesn't make it superior to the other, much like resisting soul Manipulation by being souless does not make it inferior than another arbitrary manipulation.

Except time-stop is the same as time-slow but infinitely better in scale. It isn't some arbitrary manipulation that has nothing to do with time-slow. Mind Manipulation, however, has literally nothing to do with Soul Manipulation, so it's obvious that having immunity to Soul Manip doesn't grant you immunity or resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Why? Because they are nothing alike and have nothing to do with each other. Your example doesn't hold because it doesn't apply to the discussion to begin with.

Also, my argument was hardly related to the speed. That was a random comparison I brought up that I later rectified & to use better examples.
 
Not making sense? Who is assuming they have the same laws of physics, if they are colder than absolute zero then they ca be.
 
This is more simple than you're letting on.

Temporal Resistance

Resistance to Time Slow = Can resist slowed down time, meaning you are not slowed down even when time itself is being slowed. I'm moving 43 m/s yet someone slows down time. Regardless I'm still moving at 43 m/s.

Resistance to Time Stop = Can move in stopped time. In other words you cannot probably break out of a time lock. If I'm moving 43 m/s and someone places me on a time lock...but I still move, I have resisted time stop.

Therefore

It depends whether or not being resisted to one proved you are resistant to another. Feats people, we need feats. Not headcannon/speculation. However, it should be easy for someone who can break out of a time lock which should stop their movement entirely, to resist merely being slowed down via time slow. Nevertheless, that is not always the case.
 
The normal assumption should be that being able to resist time-stop makes you resistant to time-slow, since that's what is implied by a logical analysis of the matter.

However, if a series has shown different feats from this, that specific series doesn't follow it.

This is my take on the situation.
 
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