Regarding Time Manipulation/Time Stop and range

[Firephoenixearl]

Important enough?

Almost no author cares about the fact that increasing speed increases energy yet cosmic physics is important?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

most authors don't really believe that a lot of characters are FTL until someone calcs the feats (see: just about every speed feat done by Flash ever). The author not knowing how stuff works shouldn't be an excuse

 

[Ogurtsow]

My point is most authors don't specify time manip's range simply because most of their verses don't affect distant planets and galaxies in terms of plot, i.e. they exist somehow, but the story doesn't take place outside of the main characters' home planet. Therefore they see no point to demonstrate how someone's time stop affects any and all matter of the universe. Thus time-based abilities should affect all of time in a single universe by default, unless it's shown or stated that a certain character only affects some certain space with his abilities.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I'm pretty sure no author would think "time stopped means that only time in this specific area" is stopped unless specified through statements or showings. Time in general would refer to time as a whole.

I know we like to lowball things, but this is placing an artificial limitation that goes against what should be common sense. Also for those who support the default range being planetary, well where's the evidence that the whole planet is stopped then if they don't zoom out and show the planet being stopped?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That is no reason to assume the range is universal, and they can affect time on a universal scale. It just means they didn't want to specify. Besides if there is nothing in other planets why would he bother with making the time stop more than planetary in range?

Again authors are no scientists. They have people who can crush rocks above the likes of Nice who can move at the Speed of Sound. The kinetic energy difference is scary yet the authors do not care about that. If they do not care about something as basic as kinetic energy increasing with speed which is literally everything you see in your everyday life, the reason a car hurts if it hits you, the reason a fast punch hits hard but a slow one doesn't etc. So physics problems are not an argument to put everything to universal.

Arguments:

• Makes sense physically - Cannot be used as we forget about physics in this wiki if the authors do so as well and we have a TON of cases like those.

• Requires less assumptions- Not exactly. Just to assume that the author didn't include physics in his show.

• Then what's the proof for it being planetary it doesn't show - There is no proof. We as a site are willing to high ball every unknown range time stop to Planetary in range unless proven to be smaller or bigger.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogurtsow makes a good point.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"Besides if there is nothing in other planets why would he bother with making the time stop more than planetary in range?"

Same reason we wouldn't assume the stars in the night sky are some kind of illusion because the setting doesn't leave Earth, when there'd be no point in including stars other than the Sun.

"Requires less assumptions- Not exactly. Just to assume that the author didn't include physics in his show."

No, the default assumption is that a work of fiction follows the same principles as real life until proven otherwise. Plus if gravity's still a thing, I wouldn't say there's a complete disregard for physics.

"That's what the proof for it being planetary it doesn't show - There is no proof."

Exactly. If there's no proof then don't use that as a standard, especially when it wouldn't make sense.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Again im not heavily against this. Im just trying to get my point across. Now y'all know my standing on this topic.

There is 1 more question i'd like to ask though. Would stuff like Power Null be able to nullify time stops or is this thread arguing to tread all of those as infinitely above 3D and therefore infinitely greater than any 3D skill?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Again im not heavily against this. Im just trying to get my point across. Now y'all know my standing on this topic.

There is 1 more question i'd like to ask though. Would stuff like Power Null be able to nullify time stops or is this thread arguing to tread all of those as infinitely above 3D and therefore infinitely greater than any 3D skill?

As long as the power null hits first or is passive, I don't see why not.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, me and Firephoenixearl seem to be outvoted, and like I mentioned earlier, I don't have the energy to argue about this.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Okay, so please close this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't the suggested changes be applied first?

 

[Elizhaa]

Antvasima, I added the changes and I did a while back as presume that you have read DMB 1's points earlier when you agree with Saikou's point above. My mistake towards the misunderstanding and I will try not repeat it anymore

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we were only talking about Time Stop defaulting as universal range, not Time Manipulation, which can have several different uses, so I removed your text from the latter page.

Also, I don't think that the text in the Time Stop page clarifies why the range defaults as universal in a good manner. Help to improve on the current version would be very appreciated.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I think the clarifying text is fine. If not you may want to work this into it somehow:

Default: Stopping time = stopping ALL of time = stopping ALL of time existing in the universe = stopping time universally

 

[Antvasima]

If was more referring to that, from what I recall, Saikou and Ogurtsow explained this better.

 

[Bobsican]

I think this thread can be closed now, right?

 

[Antvasima]

I would still appreciate help from Saikou, Ogurtsow, and others to improve on the Time Stop explanation.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"The ability to stop time and move around normally, an often specialized variant of Time Manipulation. In stopped time, characters can attack immobile opponents or set up and dodge attacks. Characters may be able to stop time for only a few seconds, or much longer - in some cases, they may be capable of stopping time indefinitely. While time stops are usually assumed to stop time on a universal scale, they may also only be limited to a small area."

This is my take on it, with the bold parts being what I added. I also removed the part about Time Stoppers "often" being able to move in other time stops, since this misleadingly make it out like we give time manip resistance to time users by default.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine. What about the footnote? Should it be removed in combination?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Before we close this. I have a question. Do all time stops now by the new standards count as 4D (infinitely above 3D) since they are not affecting time on a universal scale or will this be a special case?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think that the footnote can stay honestly. It's not 100% redundant with my own note and explains the reasons further.

@Fire We went over that time stop isn't AP, so it doesn't exactly matter..?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's not the issue. Hax doesn't have AP but it has dimensions.

If someone affects a time stop by the new rules (Copy, nullify, modify etc) is the power he used to affect it 4D?

If someone wishes to use a 3D power null on time stop assuming no resistances are included? Will the power null work?

Hax can affect someone no matter the AP, but when we go into dimensions, things change. Hax cannot affect something of a higher tier than itself. So this is an important part here.

 

[Antoniofer]

How much dimensions affect the chronokinesis depends of range (assuming 4D as spatial dimension then conventional time stop works normally on them).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im sorry i didn't get it.

 

[Wokistan]

That isn't really how something being whatever dimensional works. Technically time manip on its own would be a 1-D power via being the manipulation of one dimension. Just go by "bound by feats" as alway.

 

[Antoniofer]

Standard chronokinesis works up to 4D, I'm guessing "3D power" is any power that involve controlling physical matter up to space itself, in which case it wouldn't work if you can only nullify physical powers.

Also, frankly, I consider "dimensional hax" quite of a meme (anything that isn't related to space or time has little to do with coordinates).

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou

Should the note be rewritten for better clarity?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That isn't really how something being whatever dimensional works. Technically time manip on its own would be a 1-D power via being the manipulation of one dimension. Just go by "bound by feats" as alway.

So that's a no? I mean not any time stop is untouchable or gives 4d hax for affecting it unless there is proof?

 

[Antvasima]

I would still appreciate help with improving on the note.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said, I feel like the note itself is fine and adding my own note on top would be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that you can do so then.

I would still prefer to have the note explain things a bit better though.