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Regarding Time Manipulation/Time Stop and range

I disagree with this, it's much safer to assume writers don't know the consequences of time stop and how it's suppose to work. It should be treated as area affected unless specified.
 
It's not just the lack of logic with a localized time stop that's the problem. It's also the fact that we have no reasons to automatically assuming a limited range on something that is implied to be universal by default.

This really just seems like needless downplay. I know we tend to go for the lower and safer option for default assumptions, but this is just unwarranted and goes against what most people would consider logical at first glance.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
I disagree with this, it's much safer to assume writers don't know the consequences of time stop and how it's suppose to work. It should be treated as area affected unless specified.
Click to expand...
I highly doubt a writer would be thinking that their character stopping time would mean that they only stopped time in a specific area unless they show that it does, as it would be referring to time in general. With all the extra assumptions it would take to say that a character's time stop only affects a certain area when the whole environment around them is frozen, Occam's Razor would apply here.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
It's not just the lack of logic with a localized time stop that's the problem. It's also the fact that we have no reasons to automatically assuming a limited range on something that is implied to be universal by default.
This really just seems like needless downplay. I know we tend to go for the lower and safer option for default assumptions, but this is just unwarranted and goes against what most people would consider logical at first glance.
Click to expand...
It's fantasy, why assume they're time stoping a literal universe because of theroetical issues writers are hardly worried about ever? It's not downplay it's just taking the safest approach.
 
"Lol it's fiction" is such an overused excuse. We don't assume blatantly illogical things unless we're given reason to. It's the same reason we don't assume every fictional Earth-like planet that's not called Earth is the size of Mercury.
 
The issue here is not that we should assume and assign a limited range. It is that if the ability is not further specified, we should not automatically assign any specific range at all to it.
 
Well, the issue is that it assumes that any low-powered character with the ability automatically has a universal scale of power. I don't see the harm in simply keeping the scale of this ability unspecified unless it has been properly explained.
 
I agree with Saikou as well

Man i wish this argument was made when Bayonetta had her range for Witch Time downgraded for basically no reason lol
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the issue is that it assumes that any low-powered character with the ability automatically has a universal scale of power. I don't see the harm in simply keeping the scale of this ability unspecified unless it has been properly explained.
Click to expand...
What happens is that Versus Threads need a value to at least assume on by default in such circumstances, TBH.
 
We can't leave like, 80% of time stops with an "Unknown" just because we're afraid to assume Universal on most time stops. Also time stop never had anything to do with power, so "low-powered" character isn't relevent here.
 
Well, stopping an entire universe from moving at all seems like a universal scale feat to me, but I suppose that we could consider it as independent hax.
 
Well, alright then. I am still uncertain about this, but I am too tired to argue about it.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the issue is that it assumes that any low-powered character with the ability automatically has a universal scale of power. I don't see the harm in simply keeping the scale of this ability unspecified unless it has been properly explained.
Click to expand...
I see what you're saying and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth too.

Don't think about them having power on a universal scale; think about them having power over the concept.

I think if you view it conceptually (as in stopping the concept that we understand as time) it's easier to accept and wrap your head around rather than thinking that the character has universal time power/energy.
 
I suppose, but I remain skeptical.
 
Its not that amazing, considering smurfs exist. And its a hax, which has nothing to do with how powerful the character is AP-wise.
 
I mean I am confused as to how one remains skeptical about linguistics.

Stopping time = stopping the concept of time = stopping time from functioning in the universe
 
I agree with ant on this topic. Giving even low tier time users something that is universal in scale, just cus it seems to make sense, isn't a good idea. When we know that there are several small scale time stop that do not cause cosmic derangement. Saying "every series which doesn't specify it obviously takes that into account" seems a bit baseless. It's the same reason we do not count Kinetic Energy feats from raw speeds, because almost no author ever considers physics. If most do not consider something as brainless as Kinetic Energy increasing due to speed, why is it that we should assume "most should logically count the planets going out of order".

Authors are known to disregard physics in MANY ways. I will give some examples:

  • FTL not being Immesurable speed due from the theory of relativity
  • Kinetic Energy as i said above
  • Small scale time stop users not causing cosmic problems
  • Friction when going at high speeds causing characters to literally burn.
  • Problems with Invisibility (being blind),
  • Intangibility (all senses being turned off as well as dying from the cold due to heat waves going through your body)
  • Time Stop Users being able to move (in a time stop air molecules won't move so it will be impossble to move, it'll be like being stuck in concrete), not dying from the cold (heat waves would stop), not being blind (no photons to reach your eye), being able to breath (no O2 would be sucked) etc.
All of these we have decided to disregard unless it was shown to be the case in verse (like the case with Mirio Togata for example. He is the only intangibility user who has the drawbacks [and not even all of them] because the verse has shown to care about physics like those). So if we disregard all this physics based problems because "they were never shown to be regarded in verse" why should "cosmic problems are always regarded unless proven otherwise" be the case here?

Again im not against the change being applied, it just seems a bit far fetched and the arguments for it are things that we have time and time again disregarded. So I do agree with Ant's judgement on this topic.
 
It's more that, if an ability says it stops time, then we assume it's stopping time. And because time exists through the whole universe, the consequence of our basic assumption (if you can even call it this way) is that it's stopping all time.

Physics has little to do with this.
 
It's not necessarily about the lack of inconsistencies or bullshit that comes with stopping time in the real world.

It's about the fundamental wording.

Unless it is contradicted or clarified in-verse, the phrase "stopping time" means all of the time that exists throughout our universe.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
It's more that, if an ability says it stops time, then we assume it's stopping time. And because time exists through the whole universe, the consequence of our basic assumption (if you can even call it this way) is that it's stopping all time.
Physics has little to do with this.
Click to expand...
We cannot just give everyone universal time stop because it would seem ok.

It would be like saying that someone with basic dimensional travel that can jump between 2 universes can teleport from a current universe to a universe outside of a multiversal + realm just cus it would seem logical as he can "travel between dimensions".
 
HierophantDeluxe said:
Unless it is contradicted or clarified in-verse, the phrase "stopping time" means all of the time that exists throughout our universe.
Click to expand...
We have never given anyone universal ability just because it seems to make sense. It is different from a simple lowball or high ball. As you're jumping from what could easily be planetary to a realm that's unfathomably greater.

It's like giving Earth Benders universal range cus rocks exist everywhere.

Giving Fire Benders the ability to control the sun.

And other examples like that i could give. There is no reason to assume an Earth Bender cannot control a rock on the other side of the planet or universe, same for the fire bender, however we don't assume that as even if there is no contradiction, it is a huge gap in logic to just give low tier hax users universal range abilities with a concrete proof that it is so.

And no the Standard is not "Universe". We are trying to turn it into universe, and i disagree with that for the reasons i stated above.
 
That's a horrible example and you know it. Even Toph tier (no pun intended) benders can only bend matter upto a few dozen metres at best and her seismic sense only goes a few kilometres by her own admission.

You seriously cannot expect writers to actually specify a range each time, so the most logical range should be the default range.
 
Toph tier no pun intended................sure like im buying that

That's just an example from a verse idk why you're generalizing it. Im saying Earth Benders from verses where range is never given.

Trying to say "earth benders in avatar go up to dozens of meters therefore every earth bender should logically go that far" is like saying "X time stop user can only time stop 5 meters so all other verses unless specified will get this range".

Again i believe a planetary limit for time stopping abilities is perfectly fine. There is no reason for us to press the NLF paddle on every time stop user and put them as Universal at base.
 
I agree with Firephoenixearl.
 
Assumption of planetary is not only arbitrary, its also unscientific and illogical. The sheer amount of inconsistencies that would be created in the map of space alone should tell you how bad of an idea that is.

Anyway, there's 20 votes for agree and 3 for disagree. A highlight would probably help in getting the input of more people.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Assumption of planetary is not only arbitrary, its also unscientific and illogical. The sheer amount of inconsistencies that would be created in the map of space alone should tell you how bad of an idea that is.
Click to expand...
I just gave 7 examples of "unscientific and illogical" assumptions we do. The very existence of time stop is unscientific and illogical. The fact that characters like Dio and Jotaro don't instantly die and can move in a time stop is unscientific and illogical. The fact that Goku can move at MFTL speeds, but doesn't get burned by friction, doesn't have infinite kinetic energy (from relativity), and doesn't time travel via being faster than SoL is unscientific and illogical. Saitama becoming Multi Continental level doing pushups is unscientific and illogical. Rias Gremory being a devil is unscientific and illogical. Yet we still accept them.

This is fiction. A place where unscientific and illogical ideas just come together to create an enjoyable show or book. It is not supposed to always make sense, if everything were scientific and logical you would be looking only at slice of life basic comedy shows, nothing supernatural or that breaks what is essentialy "our reality" "our physics" and "our science". That is the fun of it.

I can literally just spam the thread with examples of fiction being unscientific and illogical yet we are fine with it because we understand that these shows were not created by proffesors holding pieces of chalk, but rather authors, who put imaginate above science. They never thought about why invisibility would make you blind, or why in a time stop there are a lot of physic based things that would kill you, and they never cared about it.
 
occams razor.jpg

it takes less assumptions to just say that a time stop is universal than limited in range, as the latter causes a whole lot of weird shit to happen that generally isn't shown
 
Hl3 or bust said:
occams razor.jpg
it takes less assumptions to just say that a time stop is universal than limited in range, as the latter causes a whole lot of weird shit to happen that generally isn't shown
Click to expand...
It also takes less assumptions to say someone who is stated to be above time and space is 1-A instead of 5D, yet we do not assume the former, just because the difference is so huge it's astounding.
 
It also takes less assumptions to say someone who is stated to be above time and space is 1-A instead of 5D, yet we do not assume the former, just because the difference is so huge it's astounding.

wat

ok, that is just blatantly false
 
Time and Space are 1-A concepts.

Just because it takes less assumptions doesn't mean we can just high ball them to high heavens. Not only is it not ok to high ball everything to universal because it makes sense either way, but on the contrary to prove that something is universal would need some decent proof.
 
Yes i am trying to sound like that and for a good reason.

Yes but just because we never see the changes happening doesn't mean we can assume the author DID include those, and that they DIDN'T happen. It actually takes 2 assumptions to go to universal and 1 to planetary (just assume the author didn't consider those laws).
 
Oh, boy. This one will be hard. Both sides opinion can be used. You can't truly know if the Author knows how this ability works or care enough when using it. You can't put all time stop/manipulation on the same category or potency. I'm inconclusive right now and I will wait for more opinions.

If it's not specified a limit then it can/could Universal.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Yes i am trying to sound like that and for a good reason.

Yes but just because we never see the changes happening doesn't mean we can assume the author DID include those, and that they DIDN'T happen. It actually takes 2 assumptions to go to universal and 1 to planetary (just assume the author didn't consider those laws).
Click to expand...
it's not really helping you tbh

I'd feel like the consequences of, say, a planetary range time stop (earth being a short ways behind in it's orbit around everything and all the fuckery that would cause) would be important enough for the author to mention if they existed
 
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