Regarding Star Wars striking strength

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The context is what I have said. Gethul literally makes a planet go boom with his power while he is in the epicenter of the explosion tanking it.

Tyth was low on power and was going to self-destruct taking a Dyson Sphere with him. He wanted to absorb the power which the Player Character contains to become stable.

Meaning that Player Character's Force Power > Dyson Sphere Busting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Luke can also straight up punch Abeloth and break her ribs. Abeloth is made out of the Force and is an embodiment of the Imbalance of the Force in the Universe:

"He slammed a Force-enhanced knuckle strike into her side and heard three ribs snap ... and remained entangled."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Another example is Darth Sidious' Lightsaber being a Dark Side Nexus:

This red-bladed lightsaber belonged to one of the galaxy's most fearsome dictators. Constructed in the style of all Sith lightsabers, Emperor Palpatine's lightsaber practically drips with the dark side of the Force.

--Legacy era campaign guide

Emperor Palpatine's lightsaber: Medium lightsaber steeped in the dark side of the Force.

--Legacy era campaign guide

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the biggest problem is that due to the nature of Star Wars and it having so many Authors the way the force is represented heavily depends on the medium in which it is located and who is writing it.

ontop of that the force is extremely vague allowing authors to do pretty much anything which results in varying levels of strength.

Hence why i personally believe that G canon should be separate from the EU.

the only reason why I never brought this up is due to the fact that it would require far more work and potentially piss off a lot of peeps

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@shadow

The Legends profiles base themselves on the Movie Novelizations more so than the movies themselves, really. Clone Wars is equally canon to both.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Luke can also straight up punch Abeloth and break her ribs. Abeloth is made out of the Force and is an embodiment of the Imbalance of the Force in the Universe:

"He slammed a Force-enhanced knuckle strike into her side and heard three ribs snap ... and remained entangled."

And considering that Abeloth in that scene didn't put up a Force barrier, or amp herself defensively with the Force before taking Luke's Force-enhanced blow? Abeloth isn't completely made out of the force; she was actually a regular woman who drank from the Well of Power and bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. She ended up becoming extremely powerful in the Force after that.

But it only shows that Abeloth is just an extremely powerful Force user, not the entirety of the Force itself. Thus, the same rule for Force-users amping themselves offensively/defensively applies to her as well.

Also, self-destructing is a completely different topic altogether, where it is independent of that character's physical strength/durability (unless someone tanks that explosion close-range or stops the explosion or something). Because we set different AP rating for attacks that involve self-destruction, as that character isn't guaranteed to generate that much energy in a regular combat situation or trade blows with characters that can either stop the explosion/survive the explosion at close range.

• Analogy: A truck that rams an object at its max speed doesn't generate as much energy as that same truck that is self-destructing. The mechanics of how much energy that machine is capable of generating, as well as how that energy is applied when it comes to its action, is completely different.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I'm saying George Canon which is

six films and Clone Wars

while EU is all the films+the series comics books etc.

George Lucas himself has stated that the EU isn't part his World of Star Wars.

hence I don't think EU and George Canon (I'm calling it that now) should be mixed.

we essentially have a composite canon for Legends which is kinda why we run into things like these.

but having three timelines might be just a bit much. which is why I never suggested it.


I would like to talk more about it but I believe im derailing so I apologize for that OP.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Abeloth isn't completely made out of the force; she was actually a regular woman who drank from the Well of Power and bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. She ended up becoming extremely powerful in the Force after that."

Wrong. She became an entity of the Force by doing that.

Tyth was heavily drained of energy but could still generate that much by self-destructing. He considers your energy greater than his in that state.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Wrong. She became an entity of the Force by doing that.

Post the exact quute from the novel, or the panel where it states that Abeloth literally was made out of the Force itself.

Anakin is probably the only character that would "literally be made out of the force" considering that he was conceived by midi-chlorians without a father involved.

Plagueis decided to take his powers further and reached out to the midi-chlorians across the galaxy in order to gain dominance over them, but the Force resisted his efforts and refused. In response, the midi-chlorians acted of their own accord and conceived a child within the Human slave Shmi Skywalker.
	~ relevant sectio​

This info should be directly from the Darth Plagueis novel, btw.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No he wouldn't. Darth Sidious, Vitiate and Nihilus, and even Luke all qualify for having bodies that are mere shells for the Force Powers they contain.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

All Force Users are capable of producing like this Invisible Force Aura Barrier that covers their bodies. And the Durability of their force amplification can become equal to their attack potency. At the same time, they're equally capable of using the Force to perform Precision strikes with their Lightsabers that are just as strong their Full out Attack Potency. In short, I agree with Matt and Everlasting.

When it comes to Disney Canon Star Wars, it doesn't look like their striking strength may be as good as their Force Powers looking at the profiles, but ESU for sure is High 6-A, though I heard Ever said they're going to be 5-B, and 4-B to 4-A for the top/god tiers on all statistics. And I agree, we shouldn't mix Disney with ESU, they are different continuities.

 

[Dark649]

Even in the current disney canon, we have seen force users being forced to use all of their ap power into their their lightsaber, and matching blows.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh, been a while since I seen the profiles, didn't notice the update. So I take back what I said about Disney Canon; they used to be Large Building Class was all.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Here's something to consider with Abeloth

Even assuming she needs to amp her durability, why would she suddenly drop it in the middle of a fight when she has Luke in her grasp? She's not stupid, especially not to that extent.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"At the same time, they're equally capable of using the Force to perform Precision strikes with their Lightsabers that are just as strong their Full out Attack Potency"

And how do you know this, exactly? Considering that their precision lightsaber strikes aren't even capable of severely denting/destroying larger vehicles, or can deflect/block an attack that is Multi-Continental to Solar System level.

But then, if their durability really was passively Multi-Continent to Solar System level with the force, you still haven't explained why some of these force users struggle with bounty hunters like Cad Bane/Boba/Jango, as well as not being able to penetrate an active force wall set up by another Force user?

Show me an instance where an active Force barrier set up was penetrated by a lightsaber strike (instead of a force-based ability/technique) please.

Oh, and it doesn't help that these force users aren't hack and slashing anything larger than a door, or a droid either, which indicates their lack of physical strength in combat.

• For their esoteric force capabilities? That is a completely different matter.

 

[The_Everlasting]

You're asking them to display this power in every scene.

 

[Dark649]

The fact the they mostly rather fight with Lightsabers rather than using their ap powers in battle.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

You're asking them to display this power in every scene.

Once or twice display of this = every scene?

Not sure if I read that correctly.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Jedi and Sith hold back all the time when fighting Bounty Hunters; we don't downgrade Superman to Batman's level for the very same reason. Darth Sidious still has being in the center of the Death star when it exploded and surviving as a legit durability feat. Jedi's struggling with Bounty Hunters or Vehicles is PIS if anything; kinda like Superman getting owned by Omega Beams that were easily deflected by an ordinary brick. Or that it took Doomsday like 5 or 6 punches just to slightly dent some concrete with each of those punches making Supers bleed, or both Superman and Doomsday dying from an explosion that at best destroyed part of a city.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

They may hold back all the time when fighting bounty hunters, but there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these guys are holding back that much when fighting them. These bounty hunters even give trouble to said Jedi/Sith.

For Darth Sidious surviving the Death Star's explosion, is there an exact quote, or an image of the aftermath of said Death Star's explosion? Did his body remain intact in the aftermath, or did only his spirit remain?

"Jedi's struggling with Bounty Hunters or Vehicles is PIS if anything; kinda like Superman getting owned by Omega Beams that were easily deflected by an ordinary brick." Is it PIS if it happens more than once?

• Something like this has been portrayed multiple times; it should be factored in when judging their statistic instead of chalking it up as PIS.
• As for the Omega Beams that were deflected by an ordinary brick, considering that Superman was literally struggling while trying to push back that same omega beam, the PIS would apply to the brick instead of towards Superman in this case; the large piece of brick would have easily been busted by something as strong as those Omega Beams being fired.

For the rest of your post, AoE comes to effect during that combat scene. Said scene is emphasizing more on the fight between Doomsday and Superman, and not the portrayal of the feat itself, thus the feat where the concrete is dented probably isn't considered significant when it comes to Doomsday's actual strength.

As for Doomsday dying from an explosion that destroyed a city, that could be considered PIS. It's a single incident where a major portrayed feat kills an opponent that was portrayed to have a much higher durability in comparison to the attack that killed it.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

"They may hold back all the time when fighting bounty hunters, but there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these guys are holding back that much when fighting them."

Ehm wut? They may hold back but do not hold back?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That was my point and the rest of our points, Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency. Matt and Everlasting have context regarding the Death Star explosion, so I'll wait for one of them to comment back. Didn't someone also casually deflect a surface busting laser with their lightsaber strike before? I also find Jedi struggling with Bounty Hunters similar to Goku Vs Krillin in Dragon Ball Super. Darth Vader could have easily stomped and overkilled Boba Fett if he really.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Isn't destructive capacity and attack potency the same thing?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Destructive Capacity is how much you can actually destroy, Attack Potency is the energy your attacks have.

You won't be seeing MCU Doctor Strange blow up planets but his attacks have the energy to do so.

That's basically how it works.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Obi-Wan was trying to apprehend and interrogate Jango, the best bounty hunter in the Galaxy, while Jango was playing dirty and trying to escape. That's not a fair fight to judge.

Look at Mace Windu vs Jango for what happens when a bounty hunter fights a serious Jedi. Or look at Luke vs Bobba.

They are both stomped.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically what Everlasting said, Destructive Capacity requires Attack Potency and Area of Effect in order to perform, Attack Potency is simply how strong your attacks are. Precision, is Energy/Area of Effect; some characters can have be 3-A despite Destructive capacity being Wall level at best due to lacking more than standard melee range.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"They may hold back all the time when fighting bounty hunters, but there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these guys are holding back that much when fighting them."

Ehm wut? They may hold back but do not hold back?

Sorry, I mean "some of the time" instead of all the time.

But then, the gap is already large enough as it is between Building level (probably where the bounty hunters stand at in terms of their feats/durability individually) and Multi-Continent level.

If the gap is that large, then even when the Jedi/Sith are holding back, they should be able to casually ragdoll these bounty hunters without batting an eyelid.

Seeing that they are shown to actually struggle in the first place, the strength gap between the bounty hunters (and other non-force users who faced against Jedi/Sith) and the Force users themselves don't seem to be portrayed as that wide...

As for the Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency argument, Attack Potency applies when said character can physically contend with opponents who can either perform that level of Destructive Capacity/energy, or can endure that level of energy. In fact, this is the definition of it.

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Shields

Again, you just focus on the low-ends, the majority of them are within the movies and even those have much better feats you just ignore. You have yet to address a single of the higher-end, explicitly powerful feats involving Jedi and Sith.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

I'm okay with the Attack Potency ratings, as I stated in the recent Star Wars upgrade thread.

It's just their physical strength during combat that irks me, that's all. Probably because I asked the question regarding why the Jedi/Sith's striking strength don't scale to their AP to CT more than once. ChaosTheory gave me a detailed answer why they don't scale to each other.

You should ask ChaosTheory about that topic. He'll likely give you a detailed answer regarding why it doesn't.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why do you keep referring to ChaosTheory as if he's the only authority on Star Wars in the internet?

Again, it happens all the time. We showed you numerous examples which you just ignore / try to downplay the most by inventing questions where there are none.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"We showed you numerous examples which you just ignore / try to downplay the most by inventing questions where there are none."

Could say the same thing to you. I should you numerous examples of why their striking strength should be looked at in more detail but you just ignore my points completely, or chalk them as PIS or whatnot.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No you didn't. You brought up Bobba Fett and Jango Fett who are both one-shot by Luke and Mace. Same Jango who had to shoot a downed Obi-Wan with his spaceship to escape.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"You brought up Bobba Fett and Jango Fett who are both one-shot by Luke and Mace."

Where is this scene exactly?

Also, one-shot =\= the gap between the physical strength is that extreme. They could be around 10x higher, and still one-shot.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It still shows a gap, Lina.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In the movies, I assume you watched them? You seem to not be familiar with plot points in them yet you claim to be a Star Wars Expert.

Okay, and what is your point. "Could be" is not an argument. We dtermine how more powerful they are by their feats.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Batman survived getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid, and Bulma survived getting slapped by Beerus, does that mean their gap isn't that much weaker than those who easily rag dolled them? I know it's obvious Beerus and Darkseid were holding back, but it seems OoC for Doomsday to do the same, but it's the best answer that he was super casual since Batman clearly is that much weaker than him. Also, the comic book versions literally have Jedi and Sith ragdolling Bounty Hunters same way Krillin or Hercule get stomped by Cell or Buu.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

"Batman survived getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid, and Bulma survived getting slapped by Beerus, does that mean their gap isn't that much weaker than those who easily rag dolled them?"

• Batman surviving getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid would be a special case (and probably dealing with comics material here). It'd probably be an outlier for Batman in this case since he survived a hit that he shouldn't be able to survive.
• Bulma getting slapped by Beerus? Not portrayed as a serious fight, and more of a gag feat, thus treating it as a serious fight wouldn't apply in this case either.

But then, all of these feats that you brought were isolated cases respective to their series. In the case of Star Wars, and how Bounty Hunters (as well as some non-force users/droids) were said to be able to harm and even kill Force users? It was brought up more than once throughout the lore, and should be taken into account here.

Speaking of General Grievous, Durge, and non-force users that were portrayed to contend with Force users, did any of the characters I mentioned directly survive, or went up against someone or something that is far above what their portrayed durability/physical strength would suggest? If any of the characters that were mentioned could survive a blast from an Imperial Star Destroyer, or something that causes major scale damage, it would make more sense.

 

[The_Everlasting]

>Bulma getting slapped by Beerus is a gag feat

You blatantly didn't see the scene if you think that's the case.

 

[Kepekley23]

Neutral here, but t's not exactly the best example either way.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

>Bulma getting slapped by Beerus is a gag feat

You blatantly didn't see the scene if you think that's the case.

It's still hardly a serious fight between two characters, and should not be factored in.

But the majority of the people here don't seem to be receptive to all this, so I think that any of you guys can close this thread.