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Regarding Star Wars striking strength

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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

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There seemed to be some argument about whether Star Wars striking strength scales to AP here.

While I'm not extremely knowledgeable about Star Wars, I do want to revise this striking strength-AP thing, as we had been very lax about it before. I am neutral whether scaling striking strength to AP or not though, so I would appreciate help from experts to decide.
 
There are bound to be some contradictions here or another, based on their feats. Even being enhanced with the Force, you have...

  • Blaster Bolts: Weapons clearly designed to produce Wall level to Small Building level AP, as well as the smaller ones being designed to be used against infantry and smaller targets (these things aren't doing major damage to larger vehicles or tanks). Any Force user actively needs to predict, and deflect these incoming bolts, whether by lightsaber, or by Tutaminis (which is a technique mainly used to absorb energy, or redirect it); having a blaster bolt land directly on a Jedi/Sith either injures them, or kills them outright. The Jedi massacre when a bunch of Clone Troopers turns on the Jedi Order and annihilates them with blaster fire is an example.
  • '''General Grievous, Cad Bane, and Boba/Jango Fett:''' All of these guys are non-Force users, with Grievous a physically enhanced cyborg, Cad Bane/Jango Fett a regular bounty hunter that uses gadgets and standard weaponery. The former was known as a devastating Jedi hunter that has killed multiple Jedi, while Cad Bane went up against Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos during combat, and didn't end up getting immediately overwhelmed physically (even had the advantage at times). Boba Fett/Jango Fett were also known to cause major trouble during his appearances against the Jedi as well, with the former being able to kill Komari Vosa (a rogue Jedi turned to the dark side) without the use of Force-enhanced abilities.
"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, as many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."
~ HK-47 on effective Jedi-Killing weapons​
  • Flamethrowers cannot be (nor has portrayed to be) blocked by lightsabers; it requires a Jedi/Sith to directly put up a Force barrier in order to negate it, which requires an active use of the Force itself to do so; it's not a passive one, meaning Flamethrowers used by Boba Fett (possibly Jango Fett as well) could seriously harm them.
  • The Force, despite the misconception, is not an internal source of energy like Ki/Aura/regular strength portrayed in series such as Dragonball/RWBY/random shounen series. It is an external source of "energy" present in the Star Wars universe that need to be tapped into, which is why the Jedi need to actively concentrate at that moment to maximize its use of it. Which explains why there have been portrays of Jedi/Sith performing some major scale feats with it while getting injured/killed by attacks that are much weaker than the attacks said Force-users themselves can dish out.
  • When it comes to the Multi-Continent level AP that the majority of the Force-users have, what were these feats, and what was the context behind those feats?
Basically, you got Force users shown to perform higher level feats throughout the series, and yet were shown, or said to struggle or get killed/injured by opponents that are drastically weaker than the higher end of the feats that Force users have shown (non Force users, bounty hunters). This was shown/said to happen more than a couple times, which means that it can't be just chalked up to PIS, I think.

Oh, and those large-scale battleships? The Jedi aren't capable of doing anything to those either, other than Luke slightly shaking one of them at one point (and did Luke actively concentrate beforehand when performing the feat, or was it done without warning?). But then shaking =\= significantly damaging said ship, and those Imperial Class Star Destroyers can be destroyed by colliding with one other anyways. What's the KE of those Star Destroyer collisions anyways?
 
Lina Shields does have good points here. Especially when talking about the Force as not being like typical Ki in shounen battle manga/anime.
 
Soldier Blue said:
Lina Shields does have good points here. Especially when talking about the Force as not being like typical Ki in shounen battle manga/anime.
Click to expand...
If the Force was an internal source of energy that could be used, I would be okay with the ratings rn, but it was explicitly said to be an energy field that surrounded the entire universe + living beings.
 
And? Characters make use of it, that doesn't change a thing. Characters routinely show absurd feats with the force up to and surpassing planet-busting.

Also Luke legit tanked Blaster bolts from an AT-AT without any shields in Dark Empire, and Palpatine destroyed an entire fleet. You are lying when you say Force users cannot deal with them.

The same scene which Jango fought Obi-Wan had Obi-Wan be hit with Town level lasers and not take any damage.
 
Why are you bringing up blasters unless you want to say Jedi are Wall level?

"They struggle with non Force sensitives" is not an argument when those characters are strong in their own right.
 
General Griveous scales to the Jedi. He is powerful in his own right.

The Old Republic has Droid Gods capable of blowing up planets and dyson spheres. "Oh he isn't a Force User" isn't a good argument.
 
https://youtu.be/XpO__IJra4o?t=23

The protagonist of KOTOR II sure has a hard time not being instantly destroyed by Nihilus' voice.

https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=38

Obi-Wan should have surely died here, being hit by the Slave-I's lasers while down and without his Lightsaber, no?

https://youtu.be/iu3qoIsGzUM?t=35

Yoda sure had time to react and form a Force Barrier around himself here to protect himself from Sidious' lightning.

https://youtu.be/pZ_AS-EdE-8?t=339

This guy here survived being shot point-blank with Vitiate's Force Lightning. Also no clear, visible shield that took time to create.
 
The Force itself is omnipotent and omnipresent, covering the entire Star Wars galaxy and possibly the entire universe. It is an external energy field that binds the galaxy together, able to be drawn into the body and spirit of a Force user and the amount drawn in depends on the user's midichlorian count, knowledge, skills etc. So yeah a Force user can draw all of his/her power into striking strength if they desire to.

We also forget to mention that its likely a sentient entity (basically a deity), as we can see it trying to defy Plagueis' efforts and the creation of Anakin
 
Lightsabers can carry their own Force energy - Sidious' Lightsaber is literally a Dark Side nexus - and Luke specifically broke three of Abeloth's ribs with a punch.
 
Also high-end Force Users have their whole bodies consumed and wrapped by Force at all times. Sidious and Vitiate are consistently described as being made of the Dark Side, and the Avatars of the Dark Side.

Same thing for Luke, but for the Light Side:

"Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye."

And indeed, when Luke was fighting Abeloth and had a fist-sized hole blasted through his chest by her, he didn't bleed, but rather Light Side energy poured out of his body:

"Luke's chest was a searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole, and his Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds, leaving a crescent of twinkling light spread across the dark water. He sprang anyway."
 
Seems like a good time to ask.

Do we assume that a person is a Glass Cannon if they don't force amp themselves for defenses?

Because I always assumed that was why Jedi and Sith can get killed by Blasters if caught off guard (And why 5B Anakin sliced 4B Mace's arm)
 
It's the case with everyone except Force "wraiths" like Nihilus or avatars of the Dark Side like Sidious and Vitiate.
 
Yeah, but it isn't like something that can really be exploited in a one on one fight where both opponents are aware of each other.
 
>Town level lasers

  • Where is the evidence that these hand-held blasters are Town level? I don't see it?
@Matthew Schroeder:

  • In your first scan, he put up a force barrier to protect himself from blaster fire that is wall to small building level (ChaosTheory calc'd this at one point). Does not mean that he can actually tank it without said barrier however (and this is Luke Skywalker we are talking about here, not some council member force user)
  • In your second scan, he didn't put up a force barrier to protect himself from the incoming blaster, but he actually deflected the blaster fire back at the AT-AT, which crippled it. Luke took it down after that. But the key point here is that the deflected blaster fire from the AT-AT was the main reason that the AT-AT was taken down; it's not like Luke was shown to get close to those things and slice them up to pieces casually or anything.
    • This is Luke Skywalker by the way, when has a random council-member Jedi/Sith been shown to do something like this?
    • Is there an exact yield to those AT-AT blaster fire, via a calc? If so, please link the calc here.
As for the screenshot that Matt posted, he actively "rooted himself in the heart of the force" to achieve that immovable state, which means that he was actively concentrating in that situation in order to maximize his force capabilities as much as possible.

  • Since the Force itself is an external source of energy (as the Force is basically omnipresent in that universe, and not something that could be generated internally), said energy needs to be actively drawn from the Force itself in order to perform these high-level feats.
 
Theoretically you could if you manage to surprise your opponent, like using a blitz level speed amp.
 
The Slave-I's lasers blew up an asteroid in one shot and that was calced at Town level.

Luke was tanking the AT-AT's town level blasts with the barrier he didn't have to put any effort into forming.

Considering that a random Jedi High Council Member nullified a planet-busting Force Explosion, I say what Luke is doing there isn't particularly impressive.

Said concentration happened in seconds mid-fight, my dude. It wasn't requiring tons of meditation.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Theoretically you could if you manage to surprise your opponent, like using a blitz level speed amp.
Click to expand...
Which makes sense, which bring up the point that their durability isn't a passive one. Said force needs to be actively drawn in from the Force itself to the user in order to maximize his/her AP/durability.

Also, probably not the best idea to bring Luke up in this thread considering he > every other Jedi/Sith. Thus, he would have more feats of AP/durability in comparison to the rest.

But yea, the scene where one of the Republic soldiers shoots a rocket at Darth Malgus, with Darth Malgus taking visible damage from it clearly doesn't matter here when it comes to durability, am I right?
 
No, they can passively amp themselves. See the scene where Luke walked on Lava without having to even think. Or Mace Windu using Vapaad and Force Valor against Sidious to amp himself. This thing about neding to "Drawn in frrom the Force itself" is pure headcanon.

Their power isn't external. They have their own Force that they can access at any point.
 
He also tanked blasts more powerful than the ones that could take down a Frigate.

And nobody is mentioning the KOTOR II Protagonist tanking Nihilus' Voice.
 
Js250476 said:
Vader also tanked direct AT-AT blasts in canon
Click to expand...
His helmet was knocked off. But yeah, he was unscathed.

Those cannons scale to the Slave I feats, by the way. They should be at least as powerful or even more powerful.
 
Js250476 said:
Vader also tanked direct AT-AT blasts in canon
Click to expand...
And what were the yield of these AT-AT blasts?

Did Vader raise up a forcefield beforehand before he tanked it? What was Vader's condition afterward?
 
In The Old Republic, you can also fight Gethul, an Eldritch God that can consume and destroy planets with its sheer power. It's not a Force User. You fight him with a Lightsaber and win.

You also fight Tyth who had enough power to destroy a Dyson Sphere while unstable. He's a robot. You fight him with a Lightsaber and kill him.
 
ShieldsPlus said:
And what were the yield of these AT-AT blasts?

Did Vader raise up a forcefield beforehand before he tanked it? What was Vader's condition afterward?
Click to expand...
They can destroy ships with Town level+ durability feats and should scale to the Slave I's Town level+ feats.

The AT-AT just kind of blasted Vader by surprise. He was fine after this. His helmet was knocked off but he was just fine.
 
@Shield I don't have the calc on me but AT-AT's have been calced at town level before and Vader survived them ( his helmet was knocked off but he was more or less okay afterwards)

Edit: Ninja'd
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
In The Old Republic, you can also fight Gethul, an Eldritch God that can consume and destroy planets with its sheer power. It's not a Force User. You fight him with a Lightsaber and win.

You also fight Tyth who had enough power to destroy a Dyson Sphere while unstable. He's a robot. You fight him with a Lightsaber and kill him.
Click to expand...
Are these videos of these feats being performed? What was the context behind the Gethul's and Tyth's feats?

But yea, I'll just go by what is said here.

Eventually they reached Adelade herself and after defeating her in combat, detonated the D-5X probe droid loaded with explosives inside Gethul's maw, killing the abomination and stopping its threat.
Apparently, this Gethul thing being taken out by lightsaber is done in gameplay, which could be considered gameplay mechanics at best. Gethul was actually stopped by a bunch of explosives being carried by a probe droid or something. What was the yield of those explosives again?

  • As for Tyth, does it state, or show that he actually destroys a Dyson Sphere while being unstable?
  • In relation to this, how was this Dyson Sphere destroyed? Did he completely obliterate the thing in one shot, or was is done in a specific manner (such as attacking the critical parts of said Dyson sphere or something)?
 
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