Regarding Mastery of Self movement.

[AKM sama]

 

[Akreious]

I'll have to disagree with ya' Cal. A truly mastered Ultra Instinct User would be someone like Whis who doesn't need to think about what they're doing and can just auto-dodge their way to victory. You don't think about dodging, you don't think about attacking. Goku's problem right now is that he's trying to choose the best decision to victory against Kelfa; which is bad. Cal, the problem with your conclusion is that you're trying to apply NORMAL instinct to a mystical Ultra Instinct where it's explicitly stated that your body is AUTOPILOT where you got to stop thinking and go with the flow. That's why, Again, Goku's pulling punches against kelfa.

Also about the last part of your message Cal is kinda false. Wolves and lions have minds too and can indeed form conclusions and sometimes even strategies; they don't run solely on instinct like you're implying or else lions wouldn't ambush their targets or wolves pick off a singular target of a herd.

Edit: Dang AKM beat me to the punch, with a scan to back up their argument no less. GG man.

 

[AKM sama]

 

[AKM sama]

So in a nutshell, right now Goku's body dodges everything without the aid of his mind. His mind is only required for offensive purposes.

After mastering it completely, his mind won't be required for offense either.

 

[Therefir]

Exactly, Goku UI is not complete, he can dodge while being unconscious, but he need to think in order to attack.

 

[Akreious]

To add though; Whis is a master of Ultra Instinct yet he isn't "essentially an animal" (Even though animals don't rely solely on instinct) and is even able to apply a pressure point style of combat into his Ultra Instinct which Goku isn't able to because he hasn't mastered or made his fighting style into a natural instinct.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I gotta hand it to ya, @Akr, I really respect how respectful and reasonable your response was. Same to you, @AKM. I just noticed @Akr more. I'll admit that I was wrong with comparing them to animals. However, to both of you..

...you know the mind controls both, the conscious and the subconscious, right?

 

[AKM sama]

Arigatou Gozaimasu Cal.

Yes, but mind manipulation won't work on someone who is unconscious. Now Goku is not exactly unconscious completely. Like I said, his body reacts on its own for only defensive purposes right now. So if anyone orders Goku to stay at one place to attack him, Goku would still dodge it. This should classify as a partial unconventional resistance but a resistance none the less.

Later when Goku completely masters it like Whis, his mind would not be needed for offense too.


So I think it is fine to add to their respective profiles. Partial resistance for Goku while normal resistance for Whis. But imho, this should not be added directly, instead it should be added as a by-product of their ability "Instinctive Reaction"

 

[LazyHunter]

So as I expected the recent episode didn't debunk either of my arguments, and in fact only reinforced them. Are there spoilers for a future episode where the resistances actually happen or are we still going to speculate about something the show hasn't displayed or hinted at?

To sum up my two arguments that neither the show nor anyone commenting here has actually debunked:

1. UI is all about automatic reactions and movements. It's essentially moving unconsciously guided by instinct, as I already said before, and Whis once again said in this episode. But unless it grants precognition, which it's not been mentioned so far, the body should still rely on the senses it has. Being able to fight with your eyes closed is impressive, but Goku still has other senses + the ability to sense ki, so it doesn't prove he's now resistant to mind control or illusions.

2. Goku's fight with Kefla made the obvious fact the people arguing for resistance are completely ignoring even more obvious. Several times during this fight we were shown that Goku was still conscious and his mind was still processing information and making decisions. He understood Kefla's words and talked to her, even choosing to mock her by saying he didn't need to power up more. He realized the problem with his attacks and stop to consider his options, choosing to use a Kamehameha since he only had one attack left in him. Whis specifically said his issue is that he's thinking too much to use UI while attacking, which mean you can still think while using UI and that thinking overrides UI.

Even if Goku perfects UI to the point he can attack unconsciously/by instict we are still left with two undeniable facts:

• The mind/brain are still active and process information while using UI, ergo they can be manipulated or tricked by illusions.
• The mind/brain can still give conscious orders to the body that override UI. Even if an UI can fight unsconsciously/by instint, their conscious mind is still there and can control the body if needed.

The obvious conclusion of these two facts is that someone who can control minds should still be able to control and UI user. Unless actual resistance to mind manipulation or illusions comes up I'll still challenge the notion of UI giving these unfounded resistances.

 

[Pannaliciour]

Can we assume Goku masterd UI on the defence but not offense?

 

[AKM sama]

Can we assume Goku masterd UI on the defence but not offense?

We don't have to assume that anymore as Whis made it clear that he was dodging the attacks unconsciously.

Even if Goku perfects UI to the point he can attack unconsciously/by instict we are still left with two undeniable facts:

• The mind/brain are still active and process information while using UI, ergo they can be manipulated or tricked by illusions.
• The mind/brain can still give conscious orders to the body that override UI. Even if an UI can fight unsconsciously/by instint, their conscious mind is still there and can control the body if needed.

- Except if he perfects UI, he will be able to separate the mind completely from the body as stated by Whis, so his body will still move on its own. Currently, his body only moves on its own while dodging, disregarding everything about what's going on the brain.

- That's directly contradicting Whis' statement. He said - "You need to teach every part of your body to respond on thier own" and "separate mind from the body". The recent episode also showed no signs that his mind was controlling the body while dodging as he was doing it unconsciously.

 

[Pannaliciour]

We don't have to assume that anymore as Whis made it clear that he was dodging the attacks unconsciously.

Even if Goku perfects UI to the point he can attack unconsciously/by instict we are still left with two undeniable facts:

• The mind/brain are still active and process information while using UI, ergo they can be manipulated or tricked by illusions.
• The mind/brain can still give conscious orders to the body that override UI. Even if an UI can fight unsconsciously/by instint, their conscious mind is still there and can control the body if needed.

- Except if he perfects UI, he will be able to separate the mind completely from the body as stated by Whis, so his body will still move on its own. Currently, his body only moves on its own while dodging, disregarding everything about what's going on the brain.

- That's directly contradicting Whis' statement. He said - "You need to teach every part of your body to respond on thier own" and "separate mind from the body". The recent episode also showed no signs that his mind was controlling the body while dodging as he was doing it unconsciously.

Akm

I see you know much about UI. How would you judge Goku's speed in UI while dodging (based on these episodes). He wasn't hit once when UI is fully activated. Can he be hit by an opponent that doesnt have UI no matter how fast his opponent is. Because Whis said you can avoid any danger.

 

[Ryukama]

He wasn't hit once when UI is fully activated. Can he be hit by an opponent that doesnt have UI no matter how fast his opponent is. Because Whis said you can avoid any danger.

I've already talked about this early above.

"All we know about Ultra Instict is that it's "each body part thinking and moving on its own". So it basically means Goku's body can fight independently on its own. Where does it say that if someone were faster than what Goku's body can think and react to that they couldn't blitz him?

"Whis said you can avoid any danger". Do you honestly think if Whis or Grand Priest wanted to punch UI Goku in the face they wouldn't be able to do so? Or if Zeno wants to erase UI Goku he'd avoid that danger?

Even if we're going to say yes UI Goku can avoid anything the series has to offer him, including people like Grand Priest or Zeno, then that only means UI Goku can avoid all danger in the Dragon Ball verse. That doesn't mean UI Goku avoids anything from any series ever.

Saitama within his own series can effortlessly defeat anyone. That doesn't mean if you put him in Marvel he's going to one-shot Thanos or TOAA. Nothing but Master Sword can defeat Ganon within his own series. Doesn't mean an attack from Dark Schneider isn't going kill Ganon because he doesn't have a Master Sword.

So even if UI Goku casually dodges every Dragon Ball characters' attacks, that doesn't mean you put him in a series with people vastly superior to anything DB has ever shown, that he won't get destroyed."

 

[Pannaliciour]

My question was how fast is he? I was not talking about Thanos (lol).

But by that logic why is there a vs battle if a "power" in a serie doesnt apply to another serie?? It takes all the purpose of the site away.

 

[Ryukama]

Far faster than any of his previous forms. We know that for sure at least.

My point is just because you're a big fish in a little pond doesn't mean you can defeat sharks if you were put in the ocean.

Saitama one shots everyone in his own series but his series is filled with far weaker people than a series like Marvel. Ganon can't be killed by anything but Master Sword in his own series but his series is filled with people who don't have anything comparable to the stuff Dark Schneider does.

So even if Ultra Instinct Goku can avoid any danger his own series has to offer him (which he obviously can't since people like Grand Priest and Zeno exist), that doesn't mean he's dodging an attack from Mxyzyptlk or Demonbane or something.

We rate powers based upon what they're actually shown to do, not based upon No Limits Fallacies or massive assumptions.

 

[Akreious]

Ultra Instinct as a technique doesn't actually increase his stats (Ultra Instinct Omen the form DOES however.) but Ultra instinct allows Goku to push his limits in speed. Enemies he couldn't react to, he doesn't need to react to anymore. Of course there's a limit to this, but attacks Goku previously couldn't even fathom of dodging suddenly is done with no effort whatsoever. Like I said before, as long as they're in the same ballpark of speed, Goku would either have the advantage or is able to close gaps in speed.

And if you match up Goku against an opponent that'd speed blitz him then... I don't know what to say. Ultra Instinct relies on the senses, if he gets blitzed before he even COULD react then that's a definite mismatch.

 

[Pannaliciour]

Ok thx for the anwser. I understand what you saying about power in his own serie vs other series. But your logic about what his world/serie has to offer:

The powers of One Above All doesnt mean anything in dragon world because the world that marvel "has to offer" for him doesn't mean dragon world has to offer to? That can be the case right?

 

[Ryukama]

No. The-One-Above-All's showings are ludicrously above anything Dragon Ball has ever shown. So if he stepped in the DB verse he'd annihilate them. That isn't a big fish stepping to an ocean of sharks. That's Cthulhu looking at a bunch of microbes in a water drop.

That's how we rate things. Based on feats and evidence. Saitama can one shot characters from other series who he has better feats and evidence than (Spider-Man, Luffy, etc.) yet gets one shot by those from other series who have better feats and evidence than Saitama does (Thanos, Dark Schneider, etc.)

Same with Ultra Instinct Goku. We rate him and put him in VS matches based upon who he's proven to be superior to, not just assuming he's superior to everyone ever without proof.

 

[Akreious]

Just wait as after the tournament, Goku gets some ridiculously casual undecillion times FTL feat ironically

 

[LazyHunter]

@AKM sama

You continue ignoring what I actually said and repeating the same debunked argument over and over. I'll try to explain it more clearly.

Yes, Whis said that UI is based on disconnecting the mind from the body so that the body fights independently/automatically, I haven't challenged that so I have no idea why you keep coming back to that. However for some reason you keep ignoring the basic fact that "mind disconnected from body" does not immediately equal "mind is shut down". The body can move autonomously from the mind while using UI, but the mind is still active (fact, Goku is obviously conscious in his fight with Kefla), processing information (fact, Goku understands what Kefla said, talks with her and mocks her and even stops to think about his issues with UI) and can think stuff and take over the controls of the body again either by the user's choice or unwillingly by thinking too hard about stuff (fact, Goku's problems with mastering UI is that he's thinking too much and he later chooses to use a Kamehameha since he realized he needed to finish it in one go).

Mind still active and can control the body > Mind can still be manipulated > Manipulated mind can control the body.

Mastering UI on the offensive won't change these basic facts unless it grants him an actual resistance to mind manipulation in additio to automatic body movement.

It's not that hard to understand.

 

[Pannaliciour]

No. The-One-Above-All's showings are ludicrously above anything Dragon Ball has ever shown. So if he stepped in the DB verse he'd annihilate them. That isn't a big fish stepping to an ocean of sharks. That's Cthulhu looking at a bunch of microbes in a water drop.

That's how we rate things. Based on feats and evidence. Saitama can one shot characters from other series who he has better feats and evidence than (Spider-Man, Luffy, etc.) yet gets one by those from other series who have better feats and evidence than Saitama does (Thanos, Dark Schneider, etc.)

Same with Ultra Instinct Goku. We rate him and put him in VS matches based upon who he's proven to be superior to, not just assuming he's superior to everyone ever without proof.

Ok nice. Maybe they ment with UI he can avoid any danger as long his oppenent is in the same league/tier aa Goku. So nobody can hit Goku if they are low 2-c or lower. What do you think about that?

 

[AKM sama]

@Lazy

I wish you had read my previous comments. I am glad that you are not challenging what Whis said, and that alone proves my point but for some reason you think I am talking about conventional resistance to mind manipulation. So just stay with me here, okay.

Say someone tries to mind control base Goku and orders him to not move an inch. Fine, Goku is not moving. Now that someone throws a stone towards Goku. Goku does not move because his brain commanded him to not move and the stone hits Goku. Right?

Whis explains the technique as "It takes time for information to reach the brain and then from the brain to the body. You need to teach every part of your bodies to respond on their own." Currently according to Whis, Goku can "unconsciously dodge as his body can react on its own."

Now someone tries to mind control UI Goku and orders him to not move an inch. Fine, Goku is not moving as his mind told his body not to move. And that someone throws a stone towards Goku. Now, just at the very moment when the rock is about to hit Goku, the body thinks and reacts on his own and will move automatically and dodge unconsciously.

That's what I am referring to as an unconventional resistance. But since you are confusing it with purely conventional resistance, you are more than welcome to help in wording it accordingly.

inb4> "his mind is still functioning as he can listen, hear and talk accordingly".

You are right but that's not combat related. My point about the body reacting on its own is strictly related to combat, and currently especially only for defensive purposes and dodging abilities.

 

[Ryukama]

Ok nice. Maybe they ment with UI he can avoid any danger as long his oppenent is in the same league/tier aa Goku. So nobody can hit Goku if they are low 2-c or lower. What do you think about that?

I think that as of now there's nothing supporting the idea that nobody who's Low 2-C or even lower tiers can hit Goku if they were orders of magnitude faster than him. I'm sorry but where are you getting all these ideas of "Absolutely no one no matter how fast can hit Goku" or "Goku's immune to every Low 2-C" based upon the very little information we've been given of it, none of which suggests these things?

 

[LazyHunter]

@AKM sama

I have read the comments on the thread. And no, me acknowledging Whis' explanation of the technique doesn't prove your point at all. I'm not confusing anything, your whole "it's not a conventional resistance, but it's inconventional" is just a way to ignore how the mechanics shown in the series don't support your argument. Just because you use the word unconventional doesn't make the argument any more valid than before.

Once again from the top:

1. Mind is still active during UI and can process information just fine. This is a fact.

2. While using UI, the mind's commands are more important. That's exactly why Goku has problems with attacking while in UI, because he's still thinking too much about attacking, how to attack and such. Therefore, if the mind gives a command to the body, it doesn't even matter than the body was until then moving independently; the active mental command takes priority. This is a fact. Think of it as autopilot, yeah the body/plane is working on its own but Goku/pilot can take over the controls whenever they want.

These two facts debunk your entire argument. Your scenario of Goku facing a mind controller would go like this.

1. Goku activates UI, the opponent takes over his mind and commands his body to not move.

2. Since Goku's mind is telling his body to stop, his body stops. Hell, as of right now the mind controller could immediately know what UI is and does by reading's Goku's mind and could just turn the thing off.

3. Mind Controller throws a rock at Goku, and his body is still frozen by the previous command.

4. UI active or not, rock hits the frozen Goku. Mind controlling opponent then commands Goku to fly into space to kill himself. Goku's mind gives the order to his body and his body complies.

You want real "unconventional resistance to Mind Manipulation/Illusions"? Meet the Illness Magic User, a pretty versatile magic user that uses magic boosted illnesses, viruses and other stuff. One of his techniques consists on infecting his own brain and spinal column with a magic virus to fight semi-autonomously. Since his body is now also under the control of a magic virus, this gives a him a resistance to mental type abilities such as hypnotism, mind manipulation or psychological attacks like Saiki Kazu's killing intent that are centered on dealing with the actual minds of regular living beings like humans.

Illness Magic User has a statement, mechanics that make sense and multiple resistance feats.

Goku only has a statement that's being twisted to support an argument for a featless resistance that doesn't fit the mechanics of the technique introduced so far.

Wait and see if he actually gets a resistance in addition to body autopilot.

 

[Pannaliciour]

Ok nice. Maybe they ment with UI he can avoid any danger as long his oppenent is in the same league/tier aa Goku. So nobody can hit Goku if they are low 2-c or lower. What do you think about that?

I think that as of now there's nothing supporting the idea that nobody who's Low 2-C or even lower tiers can hit Goku if they were orders of magnitude faster than him. I'm sorry but where are you getting all these ideas of "Absolutely no one no matter how fast can hit Goku" or "Goku's immune to every Low 2-C" based upon the very little information we've been given of it, none of which suggests these things?

Oke don't want to be the bad guy here, we having just a discussion oke. I am also figuring out how this work.

Whats the differents between UI and just a power-up if a faster opponent can hit him?

 

[Ryukama]

I never said you were being bad or anything. I completely understand we're simply having a regular conversation. Sorry if I gave you some impression otherwise.

Ultra Instinct is a specific technique that increases the opponent's speed by taking the thinking about what punch you have to throw part out of the equation and just punching automatically. As stated, it's the body thinking and reacting on its own.

Where's a statement or anything suggesting that someone who is faster than the body can think and react to can't blitz a UI user? Until there's any evidence of that, we're not going to list UI as that. Even if UI can avoid much faster opponents, we're not going to extrapolate that to him avoiding anyone ever.

 

[Pannaliciour]

Oke glad we are ok with the conversation. I know you have a speedadvantage because less thinking. BUT you can also have a speedadvantage by increase in powerlevel ( the old dbz days) So why train for something that consider to be hard to master (even the gods are struggeling for 1000 years) if you can just gravity-train your way to a speedadvantage (a regular power up) there must be something about UI that is better then a transformation.

Besides that considering the manga (I know its not the same) Beerus didn't get hit once during UI modus during his battle against 11 gods. This is more then just a regular speedfeat imo

 

[Ryukama]

Again, can you please give some proof that UI is immune to speedblitzing by much faster opponents besides your opinion that it should be.

The description of UI so far, it makes characters faster by having the body react separately from the body. This description does not at all suggest someone who was like, a googolplex times faster than UI Goku couldn't hit him before his body reacts to it. Plus UI Goku most likely can still get hit by people like Grand Priest.

Why train for UI? Because it's an advanced technique that tremendously improves the martial artist's abilities. Because having to think before you fight will always hold you back, so those training UI wish to overcome that limitation. Because even if they increase their speed conventionally, they can still become even faster if they knew UI. Even if UI isn't this godly NLF you claim it to be, it's still totally reasonable people would want to know it.

And how does Beerus not getting hit by the GoDs prove that he couldn't get hit by someone vastly superior to him like Grand Priest?

 

[AKM sama]

@Lazy

Okay, I guess we'll have to wait till Goku masters it completely and we get more exposition on this from Whis. Hopefully, this will be resolved by February-March.

 

[Pannaliciour]

Again, can you please give some proof that UI is immune to speedblitzing by much faster opponents besides your opinion that it should be.
The description of UI so far, it makes characters faster by having the body react separately from the body. This description does not at all suggest someone who was like, a googolplex times faster than UI Goku couldn't hit him before his body reacts to it. Plus UI Goku most likely can still get hit by people like Grand Priest.

Why train for UI? Because it's an advanced technique that tremendously improves the martial artist's abilities. Because having to think before you fight will always hold you back, so those training UI wish to overcome that limitation. Because even if they increase their speed conventionally, they can still become even faster if they knew UI. Even if UI isn't this godly NLF you claim it to be, it's still totally reasonable people would want to know it.

And how does Beerus not getting hit by the GoDs proves that he again couldn't get hit by someone vastly superior to him?

Ok lets me say this then: Do you really think thinking less its the difference of getting owned by Jiren to simple matching him and even have an advantage over him? I don't know about the brainspeed but thats a very big difference! Or getting owend by Kalifa ssj to completely dominating her in her full power ssj2? Or When UI run out for Beerus he got hit many times. Again, a thinking-issue can't give you that much of an advantage (from taking on 11 gods simultaneousl and not getting hit, to fighting 1 on 1 and getting hit) Thats not just a brain-issue.

Martial Arts has never proven to be successful in DBZ or Super because it was always about power levels or hax. This UI isn't in my opinion a simple Martial Arts ability it's more a Hax thing imo. What martial arts ability did ssj2 Gohan show to dominate Cell? Because in ssj 1 form it didn't help him that or did it? Its was and still its all about power levels> thinking less never can't give you this kind of advantage. Its more then that!

 

[Ryukama]

This is fiction. Not everything has to be realistic. Ultra Instinct is explicitly stated by Whis to be the body reacting and moving without the brain having to think about it. Maybe in real life the short delay of your brain thinking about throwing a punch before you throw a punch isn't that substantial, but in Dragon Ball it's been proven that removing this limitation drastically increases your speed very heavily.

I said it's a technique that increases the martial artist's (nearly every figher in DB is a martial artist) abilities. Not that it's a martial arts move like a punch or a kick.

I'm sorry but this is purely headcanon. There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct can't be blitzed by vastly faster opponents. There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct Goku can avoid any danger (if anything the exact opposite since we know Grand Priest and Zeno can still destroy him). There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct is this godly NLF hax that nothing from any series ever can touch.

All we know about the technique, it's the body thinking and reacting on its own without the brain having to think. Until there are any further showings or statements that support your idea that it's any of the above, we can't say it is such.

 

[Pannaliciour]

This is fiction. Not everything has to be realistic. Ultra Instinct is explicitly stated by Whis to be the body reacting and moving without the brain having to think about it. Maybe in real life the short delay of your brain thinking about throwing a punch before you throw a punch isn't that substantial, but in Dragon Ball it's been proven that removing this limitation drastically increases your speed very heavily.
I said it's a technique that increases the martial artist's (nearly every figher in DB is a martial artist) abilities. Not that it's a martial arts move like a punch or a kick.

I'm sorry but this is purely headcanon. There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct can't be blitzed by vastly faster opponents. There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct Goku can avoid any danger (if anything the exact opposite since we know Grand Priest and Zeno can still destroy him). There's no evidence that Ultra Instinct is this godly NLF hax that nothing from any series ever can touch.

All we know about the technique, it's the body thinking and reacting on its own without the brain having to think. Until there are any further showings or statements that support your idea that it's any of the above, we can't say it is such.

Stopped reading here:' Ultra Instinct is explicitly stated by Whis to be the body reacting and moving without the brain having to think about it

Whis also explicitly stated that it can avoid any danger, but that doesn't mean anything to you. My prove is: Whis words in combination with what we saw in all the UI episodes: nobody could give a clean hit to Goku. These episodes are concentrated on the not-getting-hit-Ultra Instinct.

I think it's best to leave it like this and wait for upcoming episodes to figure out how UI works. It's your words against mine. Thank you for this discussion.

Hypothetically, if it's accepted by VSbattle that it indeed can avoid any danger (lets assume not getting hit) how will vs battle rate this? Just curious not starting another discussion.

 

[Ryukama]

Because "avoid any danger" is just a hyperbole and clearly untrue. Grand Priest can still defeat UI Goku and Zeno can still erase him. Goku can't avoid those dangers. Just because Whis made a hyperbole of "any danger" doesn't mean his actual description of how Ultra Instinct works, "the body reacting and moving without the brain having to think about it" is now untrue.

How is that proof? Yeah UI Goku hasn't gotten hit by any of the people he's fought. Doesn't mean he can avoid the danger of people superior to those he's fought like Grand Priest or Zeno. Doesn't mean he can avoid the danger of vastly more powerful people from other series (Again, just like Saitama can't one shot anyone or Ganon can't tank anything that isn't Master Sword)

But I'll also leave it because I'm tired of having to repeat myself over and over. Absolutely nothing proves the things you've claimed about UI at all so far.

If Goku can dodge any character in the series, then he'll be powerscaled as the fastest character in the series. So if the fastest character in DB is MFTL+ for example, Goku's rating will be that. He's never going to be rated as able to avoid someone like Demonbane or TOAA though.

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

@Ryu please, your wasting your time with him. this isn't worth it, we all get what you mean and fully agree.

 

[Theglassman12]

So what's the verdict here?

 

[Pannaliciour]

@Ryu please, your wasting your time with him. this isn't worth it, we all get what you mean and fully agree.

AnonymouXOtakuX

please behave yourself, I only had a good discussion with Ryu. No need to say things like that. You are a person with value you don't need to scratch his back remember that!

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

@Ryu please, your wasting your time with him. this isn't worth it, we all get what you mean and fully agree.

AnonymouXOtakuX
please behave yourself, I only had a good discussion with Ryu. No need to say things like that. You are a person with value you don't need to scratch his back remember that!

it was a joke, im really sorry if it offended you, my cellphone is kinda f*cked up, so it sometimes doesn't fully write what i want, not mention it turned off when i was gonna edit it. BYA right now im using my laptop

 

[Golden_Void]

UI Goku avoiding any danger is clearly false, he barely escaped by a hair's breadth against Kefla.


Besides that, what has been accomplished in this thread so far? I need a recap. :^)

 

[Theglassman12]

We're trying to reach a verdict here on if UI makes goku and whis resistant to mind manipulation and illusions since.

A: The mind takes a back seat since the body fights by itself, and

B: The description says that it makes Illusory techniques useless.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is a much better analogy than what I was saying before.

It's akin to breathing. You don't put any thought into that, do you? Now how many mind manipulators can just say "stop breathing" and it'll happen. Hint: it's a lot.

This wasn't meant to be mean, and sorry if it sounds that way.