Regarding Dimensional Travel and Portal Limitations

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So this has become a topic on this thread.

So the topic of contention is the way we treat Portals and DImensional Travel.

The Issue
So the current issue is whether we should limit dimensional travel and portal to what they've shown. While anyone upon hearing this would say "no shit", here me out. I am not the best at wording things so that may come off as consusing.

The topic of contention is whether someone who can make a portal to another world, from another world should be limited to using their abilities to go between those places only. For example, X character from X universe can make a portal to Z universe or Y character can send Z character to V universe.

The Questio
For the first example do we assume that they can only make a portal from X universe or from any universe? For example 2, do we assume that the portal can only be used to force someone into a dimension or that the one who made the portal can freely travel with the portal they created.

Of course, the other question is whether we allow people with dimensional travel to traverse other dimensions outside of the dimensions from their travel feat in question? Or do we apply a limitation to this as well? I should note that these examples assume that no limitation to the travel requirements have not been stated or implied. Obvious higher dimensional travel feats without evidence is a no go. I also think this would apply to Dimensional BFR as well seeing as these usually involve portals as well.

Basically, I want to see what everyone thinks and perhaps we should note our decision here on our Dimensional Travel and Portal Creation page.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If a character has only made a portal between two specific dimensions, there is nothing indicating the same portal can be made between any dimension unless otherwise stated.

To use dimensional BFR as an example, people obviously can't BFR others to dimensions where they haven't BFRed others to. This is how we judge powers, we look at what is shown to make judgements, not create hypotheticals without proper support.

I don't see why this is necessary. This is just applying the logic we use on any given power to two-three specific powers.

 

[Schnee_One]

Literally what Dargoo said.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Funny thing is, I agree with the BFR thing. Obviously you can't just say X character can BFR Y character to the World of Void when they've never been to the world of void. However, I feel that if you can make a portal to another world, you can make a portal to that world and travel through it regardless of where you are.

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't think where they can travel from should be restricted to one place at least.

Whether they can only go to one specific dimension depends on context, if the portal creator has a specific connection to the dimension, say he's the ruler of hell or something, it might be justified but if it's just a superpower they happen to have with no hints that they can only go to one dimension, I don't think that assumption is warranted

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

However, I feel that if you can make a portal to another world, you can make a portal to that world and travel through it regardless of where you are.

I... don't disagree with that. Although, they would have to demonstrate being capable of traveling to and fro that world themselves, as opposed to dragging others to and fro it, yes?

it might be justified but if it's just a superpower they happen to have with no hints that they can only go to one dimension, I don't think that assumption is warranted

Why would we need to prove it's restricted to one dimension, when our default assumption is to only use what is shown when judging powers, the same premise for my argument on BFR? Why is it that we assume a character can only BFR others to one dimension by default but disregard this when it comes to moving themselves, which is functionally the same exact thing?

I don't like throwing around this argument much since it's so overused, but you're asking to prove a negative, prove that they can't do something instead of proving that they can.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That bit I disagree with. The fact that they can create said portal and that people can enter and exit them, they should be able to do the same unless there is an in-verse limitation or stated limitation to this. One should be able to go to and fro their portals

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Assuming a character can only reach through a specific set of dimensions with their abilities really just defeats the purpose of them having the "full" ability in the first place, as opposed to having some modifier added to their Powers and Abilities indicating they have a more restrained version of it, like "Limited Portal Creation / Dimensional Travel"

Unless said locations are obviously something that would be out of the reach of their abilities even in their own verse going by their feats, then it should be assumed they can in principle reach to them. Although, what shouldn't be assumed is that they can travel to locations they don't even know about, unless the verse itself specifies they somehow can do that, or if they are specified to have prior knowledge of some other location in the thread itself.

Really, assuming the former criteria is stupidly mechanical as reasoning and drains away all nuance VS Threads can potentially have, which is obviously a problem.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Dargoo Because where you can travel to may just be based on where you are aiming your ability, rather than how limited the ability itself is, knowledge and cosmology will obviously play a role but if your power is just a broad "interdimensional travel" assuming it is mechanically incapable of allowing travel to more than one specific dimension despite no meaningful relationship being established between the dimension and the ability's user makes little sense,

If someone teleports from new jersey to the north pole we won't assume they can only teleport from new jersey to north pole would we? And so if there are places in the cosmology that aren't beyond the range he's already shown and he knows about them, and his ability is just broad dimemsional travelling I don't see why their ability would suddenly fail. I also find it questionable how the idea of proving a negative works in your favour here, an ability being only capable of being targeted towards one place isn't a natural assumption and depending on the cosmology travelling to another location wouldn't require a higher level of potency, so if despite this you claim there's a limitation that has no reason to exist, I feel the burden of proof falls squarely on you

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Andy

may just be based on where you are aiming your ability Key words, here. We should be told that the power works like this, it shouldn't by any metric be our default assumption. If someone teleports from new jersey to the north pole we won't assume they can only teleport from new jersey to north pole would we? Actually? Yes. If we see someone use a teleportation pad to go to another teleportation pad, of course we wouldn't assume it can just plop people to any which location. Or if someone ripped a hole between Earth and Magical Fairy Land on a random tuesday, never to be done or explained again. And again, this same exact logic can be applied to BFR, but isn't, because reasons. Context matters. If we just see someone making a portal from one location to another, unless we have an explanation we should not assume "this person can therefore make a portal to any location they wish!". so if despite this you claim there's a limitation that has no reason to exist, I feel the burden of proof falls squarely on you When you conjure up valid reasoning in your hypotheticals when we're talking about situations where that context isn't present, of course it seems like I need to prove you wrong, as you're making specific situations where you are correct. Which just reinforces my point that we need an explanation it works like that before assuming it.

@Ultima

Shoot, let me go back and edit every fire user that doesn't have the full range of the power, such as combusting an opponent's insides with a gesture. You can have a 'partial' ability without the 'limited' moniker. It's done for every single profile in much less explicit ways than this, so this isn't much of an argument. We don't assume people can do things that they haven't shown. The 'limited' moniker as a whole is kind of misleading in general, although that's for another thread, I guess. You're acting like I'm dismissing examples of this when context actually exists. I'm speaking of the very seldom situations where the ability in question isn't demonstrated thoughroughly or explained. If they just have the ability to move between various universes in a multiverse, cool. If they farted a portal between two specific locations and we get no more context than that, yeah, it's fair to say we should assume the least, as this is our basic policy on the site in logic. Really, assuming the former criteria is stupidly mechanical as reasoning and drains away all nuance VS Threads can potentially have, which is obviously a problem. The number of verses where we have nothing to go off of with this power, to the point where we can't contextualize it at all, probably fits on my fingers. I'm sure VS Threads aren't going to crash and burn as we know them if we apply our logic as we always have.

 

[Andytrenom]

>Key words, here. We should be told that the power works like this, it shouldn't by any metric be our default assumption

Why shouldn't it? A power being only able to target a specific thing isn't normal by any means, if a character has only mindhaxxed one person in a story so far we wouldn't assume they can only mindhax that one person unless specifically stated would we. If a character has shown the ability to breach time space to an extent that lets him enter one universe, I don't see why it can't be assumed he can breach time space again to the same extent but land in another place that is just as far away in the cosmology as the place he first traveled

>Actually? Yes. If we see someone use a teleportation pad to go to another teleportation pad, of course we wouldn't assume it can just plop people to any which location...location they wish!".

By adding teleportation pads in this scenario which I never mentioned and which serves as a piece of evidence supporting your assumption, it would indeed be hard to assume his teleportion can take him somewhere other than these two specific locations, all it took was inserting context that worked in your favour

Also BFR is a very loosely defined power in our catalogue which features even knocking someone into space as a possible method to get someone out of the battlefield. Some examples of BFR would be an ability described to transport things to a certain place, which would give a reason to believe it is limited to that place, but in other cases like standard spacial manipulation which has been trained to transport objects, I don't see why that should be assumed instead of that the ability is limited by range, not destinations.

Can you prove that this a standard for BFR in general and not just those BFR abilities whose mechanisms have actually been linked to the specific place they are transporting things to?

Finally, the point of the example isn't that the teleporter can travel anywhere on earth, it's that he can simply travel to places apart from those two, whether it be from his house to the local airport, from end of the street to another or whatever

>When you... it.

A gun can be aimed at the head, even if so far the gunslinger hasn't explicitly shown the ability to hit the head, that's the basic idea that is followed in saying that DT can take you to a location other than what's shown and this idea doesn't have to explicitly explained, it's so obvious that it should be what's the default assumption, not the less natural situation where your power is sufficient to do something but you lack the ability to target anything other than a specific area

We aren't talking about dimension that straight up go outside the range he should logically have, since bringing an obvious situation like that would kinda be pointless. So outside of that, If you can only move between two specific dimensions, it means there's some kind of link between the ability you're using and the place you're going, perhaps the power specifically exists to move things between those dimensions or maybe the nature of the space itself is different between different dimensions and instead of having the ability to breach space in general, the character only has the ability to breach a specific kind of space, or maybe there are restrictions relating to his power placed by a higher authority, whatever it is, it is not a more reasonable assumption that the character with the portals can connect two seperate spaces and as long as his range doesn't fall short, he can connect two other separate spaces which so far have no context implying they are fundamentally different than the previous two

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why ... traveled

What? Referring back to any other ability on the site, our policy is, and I repeat, only use what is shown/reliably stated. A power only having one or two uses is completely normal, by the standards of supernatural powers. Speaking of, by what grounds do you have to say something is or isn't 'normal' in regards to a power?

By ... favour.

Yikes, narrow-focusing on a single example. You do realize the breadth of my argument was for the use of the ability with no context, right? The whole point of the example was showing you how context changes everything. We're discussing the lack of context, not whatever context either of us want to conjure up.

"an ability described to transport things to a certain place, which would give a reason to believe it is limited to that place"

Is "oneself" not a "thing", in your book, then?

Can you prove that this a standard for BFR in general and not just those BFR abilities whose mechanisms have actually been linked to the specific place they are transporting things to?

It's actually a standard for our site as a whole. We just happen to apply it to BFR.

it's that he can simply travel to places apart from those two, whether it be from his house to the local airport, from end of the street to another or whatever

Cool, what if he doesn't demonstrate that? Lack of context, point of the discussion, etc. etc.

A gun ... specific area

And a gunslinger who has never landed a headtshot or never been stated to possess great skill shouldn't be assumed to be skillfull enough to land a shot consistently there. Poor example, though, we obviously know much more about guns than the contextless creation of portals or random one-off teleports.

If ... two

Or, bear with me, they can only teleport between two locations. No fine print.

You're asserting the need for an explanation of a negative by claiming there only exists a narrow list of reasons for a power acting a certain way, without realizing that there's infinite reasons it could be like that, it's a supernatural fictional power. So, yes, I'm not fond of extrapolating applications of the power when they aren't demonstrated. You shouldn't have to prove a negative.

You still seem to be confusing me for pushing for this to apply to more general uses of dimensional travel and teleportation. No, those have context and are explained, or are demonstrated thoroughly. Sadly, the topic of the thread is none of this.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Bump.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

bump

 

[Moritzva]

Honestly, wouldn't something like this just depend on the context of the ability?

If a character is simply able to make portals to other realms, and there only happens to be two realms in that verse, I wouldn't say they can only travel to that realm.

If that same character happened to only travel between two worlds in a verse with far, far more dimensions and worlds, then maybe we have some debate.

Really, this seems like a case-by-case debate rather than something we should rule absolutely on.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Thing is - for some reason we want to have "baseline assumptions" for when this ability is demonstrated. I whole-heartedly agree that this is just based on context, but in the absense of context we shouldn't be able to make any educated assumptions.

Imagine forming a hypothesis, but without performing obvervations first, or with incomplete observations. It just doesn't work.

 

[Moritzva]

If someone has dimensional travel, I'd imagine they can travel to worlds they've traveled to before/potentially similar worlds, if there is absolutely zero explanation otherwise of the ability.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, then I propose we go for that.

Users of Dimensional Travel, with no other context on their abilities, are generally assumed to be limited to travelling to and from dimensions they have travelled to, and potentially to similar dimensions.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To give an outline on my opinion on the matter.

If someone can make portals or travel through dimensions, then they should be allowed to travel through any dimension (within reason, so no travelling to higher realms) or reach certain dimensions from anywhere. So if a character is from the Dragon Dimensions and has feats of travelling to the Human Dimension. They should be able to make a portal to the Human or Dragon Dimensions from anywhere. And if someone makes a portal, they should be able to go to and fro from their own portals even though they have previously used it to suck opponents into a new dimension.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

See, this is why I didn't like this thread to begin with. We don't need to revise or debate sweeping standards to debate this singular example of it being used.

If you wanted to make a thread where you could argue for this claim, it would have been better for it to be limited to that verse as opposed to, well, the entire site.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Except this would have argued against the standard as a whole. Which is what I was arguing, not just for a specific case. I was arguing the standards as a whole and how such a limitation went against how from my understanding of our standards to be. I mean, whether you liked the thread or not is irrelevant. The point was to discuss the standards on this situation.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was arguing the standards as a whole and how such a limitation went against how from my understanding of our standards to be.

Our standards are to look at it on a case-by-case basis. We shouldn't need a standard to tell you what a character can and cannot do.

The point was to discuss the standards on this situation.

This thread was specifically created as a result of a discussion on Digimon, and I've yet to see it meaningfully deviate from that.

 

[HenryWong122]

Except this would have argued against the standard as a whole. Which is what I was arguing, not just for a specific case. I was arguing the standards as a whole and how such a limitation went against how from my understanding of our standards to be. I mean, whether you liked the thread or not is irrelevant. The point was to discuss the standards on this situation.

So I clicked on this: So this has become a topic on this thread. and it says this; about:blank#blocked. What is going on here?