Red vs Ash

[The_real_cal_howard]

...why on earth has no one done this?

Red has his Battle Tree team.

Ash has Pikachu, Sceptile, Charizard, Ash-Greninja, Infernape, and Heracross

 

[Eficiente]

Red alone scares Ash out.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Ash because of the following:

- Can perform extraordinary powerful Z-moves such as 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt with Pikachu. Ash's Pikachu has battle against several pseudo-legendaries and other powerful Pokémon (including a Mega Lucario and Mega Gyarados) even if we take his feats concerning Regice and Latios out of the equation.

- Ash's Charizard managed to defeat an Articuno, which is still a strong legendary Pokémon despite the type advantage Charizard has over Articuno. Charizard can also deal with Pokémon like Dragonite despite having had trouble with them years ago at the Orange League. Charizard has also defeated a Blastoise despite Blastoise having the type advantage.

- Ash's Heracross shrugged off a Magmar's Flamethrower attack point-blak despite the former being weak against Fire-type attacks. Heracross also defeated a Scizor who had a perfect win record and was the Pokémon of a former Elite Four's son.

- Ash's Sceptile managed to defeat Darkrai (then again he also got defeated by a Latios afterwards) and even before that it could hold his own against May's Blaziken.

- Ash's Infernape fought against three different Pokémon in a single battle while being exhausted, poisoned and on the verge of defeat yet keeps powering through. His best feat in this regard is taking down an Electivire powered by an activated Motor Drive ability while being at his worst in terms of being exhausted and poisoned.

- Ash-Greninja managed to defeat a Gym Leader's Mega Abomasnow and a semi-finalist's Mega Sceptile; and hold his own against a Mega Gyarados, a finalist's Mega Charizard X (1), and a regional champion's Mega Gardevoir.


If we allow Red a keystone with Mega Stone (even though that's only applicable during the Battle Tree battles whereas I presume you mean his 6 monster team he has at his disposal when you reach the Battle Tree for the very first time), that would still leave with Ash having two Pokémon who are on par with Mega Evolved Pokémon and having two other Pokémon who have experience dealing with legendaries (that is if we don't consider them to be outliers).

Red might have the advantage for being more experienced but Ash has his fair share of experience to and has fought against trainers from all across the world and who all had varrying degrees of experience. Red may have won the Kanto League, but Ash won the Orange League and beat all the Frontier Brains.

So yeah, my vote is on Ash Ketchum from Pallet Town.

(1) = It should also be mentioned that while Ash-Greninja didn't defeat Alain's Mega Charizard X, he still posed a far better challenge than the 10+ Mega Evolved Pokémon that Alain has defeated with his Mega Charizard X.

 

[Jawsome274]

Ash FRA, although Darkrai had to deal with half of Ash's team before his Sceptile, so Darkrai was a pretty easy win.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Ash FRA, although Darkrai had to deal with half of Ash's team before his Sceptile, so Darkrai was a pretty easy win.

Not only did Ash defeat Darkrai, but it's also important to highlight he defeated two Pokémon of a trainer that has thus far been undefeated throughout the entirety of Sinnoh since nobody managed to discover any other Pokémon beyond his first one, Darkrai, as nobody even managed to defeat his Darkrai in the first place.

We've also seen Ash pull off all sorts of tenacious strategies at his best, which we can't really say about Red. We can "argue" or theorize that Red has certain strong strategies due to his achievements but the games he's part of don't really tell me what his particular strategies were whereas Ash has pulled off the most innane yet succesful strategies such as Counter Shield and the infamous Thunder Armour.

 

[Fireblast966]

Red actually using items(hold ones and potions) might actually mean something, depending on how close this battle will be, which I am not sure.

 

[Jawsome274]

Potions are considered to be "Spray-Type" so it may be pretty hard to get up close when theres a battle between 2 High 6-Cs and by yourself, you're a 9-A.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Red actually using items(hold ones and potions) might actually mean something, depending on how close this battle will be, which I am not sure.

If Red is allowed to use potions during battle, so is Ash and Ash has more experience dealing with surviving strong Pokémon attacks than Red has (even when that's not really reflected in his durability on VBW but throughout the show he has been struck by various Pokémon attacks yet lives on so that says something).

 

[Jawsome274]

Wait doesn't that mean Ash has Island Level durability? Even the likes of Multi-City-Block Level would be insane.

 

[Fireblast966]

Ash doesnt use items in-character during a battle though. Also Red uses held items like AV for Snorlax or weakness berries which might make up for the power difference. Again, not sure who wins here, just presenting something to argue.

Is this straight up 6 vs 6 or normal 1 vs 1 team battle?

Also, Ash's current lifting strength is hilarious to me.

 

[Jawsome274]

Ash doesnt use items in-character during a battle though. Also he uses held items like AV for Snorlax or weakness berries which might make up for the power difference. Again, not sure who wins here, just presenting something to argue.
Is this straight up 6 vs 6 or normal 1 vs 1 team battle?

Also, Ash's current lifting strength is hilarious to me.

Seeing as they're both Pokemon Trainers, they'd likely assume that they were having an actual battle. So likely 1v1.

 

[Fireblast966]

Seems reasonable. If this would be an all out, Red might have had the exp edge since he did a bunch of 3 vs 3 in BW 2(not the same but close) before but with this, exp on both trainers seems to be even(although Red is implied to be the better strategist).

 

[Jawsome274]

Ash is proboably the better strategist. He's even suprised Clemont, a fantastic scientest, with his strategies. Also, exp is game mechanics, but if you're talking about general strength, I think Red has the advantage. Still going for Ash due to sheer strat, but yeah.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Ash doesnt use items in-character during a battle though. Also Red uses held items like AV for Snorlax or weakness berries which might make up for the power difference. Again, not sure who wins here, just presenting something to argue.
Is this straight up 6 vs 6 or normal 1 vs 1 team battle?

Also, Ash's current lifting strength is hilarious to me.

That's because anime battles follow a different rule set when it comes to their battling, but I don't see Ash refrainig from using hold items or potions if those were allowed -- but they are implictly not allowed and hold items have never shown the same importace or property as they do in the games besides evolution.

But sure, I'd allow hold items since Ash uses a Z-Ring despite Pikachu not needing to possess the Z-Crystal himself + Red does have access to a Mega Evolution Pokémon (either Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard X/Y, or Mega Blastoise).

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ash walks up to Red and smashes him through a wall.

Okay but no really. Many of the feats in the anime are better than ingame feats with Ash's pokemon generally being stronger than their forms would be in the games. Pikachu would completely crush Red's Pikachu considering that little thing has taken on Rhydon, Regice, Latios and took down two pseudo legends in a row (Tyranitar and Metagross at that) then took on a Charizard (that fought Zygarde in Mega X form and has defeated an E4 Mega).

Sceptile in itself defeated a Darkrai (albeit after that Darkrai fought numerous other pokemon) but is also the ONLY Pokemon in all of Sinnoh to beat it. I would have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it's also stated that the Battle Frontier brains are stronger than the Kanto Elite 4 and Sceptile was heavily present in the frontier story.

Charizard has defeated an Articuno and curbstomped a Dragonite. I'm not a big anime fan but I do seem to recall a lot of people hyping him as Ash's overall strongest pokemon due to numerous feats he has had and I do seem to recall a few years back seeing he was still among Ash's strongest.

Ash-Greninja fought toe to toe with Charizard X which has fought and defeated MANY Mega Pokemon and has fought numerous legendaries (notably it went toe to toe with Zygarde) and even defeated an E4 Mega ace. This would all indicate Ash-Greninja is E4-level.

Infernape is rated on the same scale as everyone above due to its numerous feats and absurd Blaze ability.

Heracross...Well it fought freaking Darkrai so it's obviously up there. It has plenty of feats in the Sinnoh league and Silver Conference to back it up in this fight. (I would elaborate but I don't want to make this post too long)

Generally speaking, this team is E4-level. Pikachu is also amped by it's extremely powerful Z-Moves and all of these pokemon are used by a more competent and experienced Ash (XY and SM are both around the same skill level from what I have seen). The E4 is FAR more dangerous than the game version as well considering they actively fight legendary pokemon (who are treated as continental to planetary threats generally) and most E4 members curbstomp Ash's regional teams. Champions are a vast step up from even that. So yeah, overall I give this to Ash.

I might switch my vote to Red if someone provides some feats for Games!Red.

 

[Eficiente]

Honestly, given Ash's reset of power and experience for his team and himself every so often giving him a combined team+Composite experience is mostly unfair.

Ash ftra.

 

[Theformofacast]

Ash FRA

 

[Dragonboi9191]

Red on his own would be a problem. He resists electricity, survived a plane crash, takes a explosion and walks it off, and more. His pokemon? Well, they are pretty durable, and can deal heavy amounts of damage. Ashes teams power is also very inconsistant. Pikachu lost to a level 5 snivy, and his greninja lost to a fire type. And ash has never beated a pokemon leage, and red has. For these reasons, I vote Red.

 

[The_Calaca]

Do we have a Manga Red's profile?

Edit: Indeed we have one.

 

[The_Calaca]

This one is with Manga Red

 

[Epsilon_R]

Ash For reasons above

 

[The_Calaca]

Wait, nobody said that Mega Charizard fought with fricking Mewtwo. Isn't that far above Ash's ballpark?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Ash's pokemons also defeated legendaries

 

[The_Calaca]

The only one who counts here is Darkrai and I'm pretty sure nobody would say that was legit or may be counted as outlier (at most High 6-C defeating a Low 2-C yeah). The rest of those legendaries are 6-B and High 6-A while Mewtwo is 5-B.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Mega Charizard fought Zygarde (who is arguably stronger than Mewtwo) and was depicted as handling itself. Ash's Pikachu has also defeated a Regice and Latios solo. Charizard defeated an Articuno. There have also been many instances of Ash battling legendaries...like when his newly evolved Noivern fought Zapdos toe-to-toe and Pikachu has more feats such as his training with Tapu Koko.

Overall, it's HIGHLY consistent for Ash's stronger pokemon to be capable of matching and defeating low-mid tier legendaries in one-on-one combat.

 

[Desmond253]

Red cause he's a pokemon master

 

[Laughing_Manson]

Ash's Pikachu has also defeated a Regice and Latios solo.

Pikachu vs Latios actually ended in a draw.

Also Ash for Jakobs' reasons.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

True. Still places Pikachu as At least 6-B if he scales to Latios. Pikachu would also be much stronger with Z-Moves...I definitely wouldn't say 5-B or anything but I could picture him scaling to 6-A with a full power Z-Move. We wouldn't really know rn though...I don't recall Pikachu having any particular feats with it at least.

 

[Dragonboi9191]

Poliwrath beat up a Electrabuzz who was too strong for a ship full of men and a gym leader. Furthermore, @CryoTheMayo said, mega charizard fought zygarde, who is arguably more stronger than Mewtwo. What happens when Ash fought Mewtwo? He got wrecked. Red was the one who caught the Mewtwo, although he never uses it. Keep in mind he also has never won a pokemon leage, when Red passed the test to be a gym leader, after winning the championship. Ash's pokemon are (Again) very inconsistent with strength, going on par with legendaries, then loosing to snivys.

 

[Dragonboi9191]

Ash walks up to Red and smashes him through a wall.
Okay but no really. Many of the feats in the anime are better than ingame feats with Ash's pokemon generally being stronger than their forms would be in the games. Pikachu would completely crush Red's Pikachu considering that little thing has taken on Rhydon, Regice, Latios and took down two pseudo legends in a row (Tyranitar and Metagross at that) then took on a Charizard (that fought Zygarde in Mega X form and has defeated an E4 Mega).

Sceptile in itself defeated a Darkrai (albeit after that Darkrai fought numerous other pokemon) but is also the ONLY Pokemon in all of Sinnoh to beat it. I would have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it's also stated that the Battle Frontier brains are stronger than the Kanto Elite 4 and Sceptile was heavily present in the frontier story.

Charizard has defeated an Articuno and curbstomped a Dragonite. I'm not a big anime fan but I do seem to recall a lot of people hyping him as Ash's overall strongest pokemon due to numerous feats he has had and I do seem to recall a few years back seeing he was still among Ash's strongest.

Ash-Greninja fought toe to toe with Charizard X which has fought and defeated MANY Mega Pokemon and has fought numerous legendaries (notably it went toe to toe with Zygarde) and even defeated an E4 Mega ace. This would all indicate Ash-Greninja is E4-level.

Infernape is rated on the same scale as everyone above due to its numerous feats and absurd Blaze ability.

Heracross...Well it fought freaking Darkrai so it's obviously up there. It has plenty of feats in the Sinnoh league and Silver Conference to back it up in this fight. (I would elaborate but I don't want to make this post too long)

Generally speaking, this team is E4-level. Pikachu is also amped by it's extremely powerful Z-Moves and all of these pokemon are used by a more competent and experienced Ash (XY and SM are both around the same skill level from what I have seen). The E4 is FAR more dangerous than the game version as well considering they actively fight legendary pokemon (who are treated as continental to planetary threats generally) and most E4 members curbstomp Ash's regional teams. Champions are a vast step up from even that. So yeah, overall I give this to Ash.

I might switch my vote to Red if someone provides some feats for Games!Red.

One of the problems ash has is all of his pokemon are somehow countered by Reds. Charzard has the advantage agains heracross, and sceptile. Greninja lost against a pokemon it had a type advantage to, so Pikachu would wreck it. Infernape would be countered by Poliwrath, who took down a electrabuzz to strong for a electric gym leader to take down. Pikachu would then have to take them all down, and then the areodactle, who has supper effective moves.

 

[Dragonboi9191]

Vote for Red.

 

[The_Calaca]

Are you aware that this is Videogame Red, right? I did a match with Manga Red vs Ash.

 

[Dragonboi9191]

Are you aware that this is Videogame Red, right? I did a match with Manga Red vs Ash.

My bad. This dosn't seem to change the results for me. Snorlax is a better option than poliwrath, being a tank, and having rediculous health. Laparas would still take down infenape, then Snorlax would take down pikachu with sheer health and attack power.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Why people counts Ash victory against legendaries? These fights are simple outliers ...

 

[CryoTheMayo]

>Outliers

...No. Just no. Ash is consistently depicted as being capable of taking down low-level legendaries with his end of region teams. The only 'outlier' here is Pikachu being nerfed to garbage in some arcs and even that has been mostly dropped. XY and SM Pikachu are consistently around the same level of general power and capability, DP Pikachu ties with a Latios, AG Pikachu (IIRC) was consistently stronger than OS Pikachu.

It's arguable that it goes: SM Pikachu (Z-Moves) > XY Pikachu (Took down two psuedo legends in a row that were from an essentially E4-tier trainer) >/= DP Pikachu (tied with Latios) > AG Pikachu (Defeated Regice) > OS Pikachu = BW Pikachu

With this logic in mind, the only 'outlier' Pikachu is BW Pikachu who was nerfed to garbage at the start of the story...even then it was specifically shown as being heavily weakened due to Zekrom.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Mega Charizard fought Zygarde (who is arguably stronger than Mewtwo)

No, just no. Pikachu was defeat by Alain's normal Charizard (High 6-C) which in Mega Charizard X was one-shotted by Primal Groudon Pinacle Blades who is vastly weaker than Zygarde 50% in 5-B, and the Zygarde 50% which Mega Mewtwo fought was absorbed Xerneas and Yveltal and not 50% normal

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You mean AFTER that same Pikachu was attacked directly by a Metagross and AFTER it defeated a Tyranitar and Metagross. When both of them are rated as High 6-C on this wiki.

I never said Mega Charizard was equal to Zygarde, just that he FOUGHT Zygarde and it's quite clear that it did rather well as it actively grappled with it. It's arguable that Primal Groudon is depicted as more powerful than Zygarde, albeit this may be the result of simple animation limitations in the anime.

All I am saying is that Pikachu can casually take out High 6-Cs, that Alain's Charizard could fight Zygarde (mind you that this was after the Mega Evolution specials IIRC where he had trained and grown much stronger). Thus, Pikachu in SM with Z-Moves would be much higher than XY Pikachu.

With the above in mind, Pikachu would ARGUABLY be at least High 6-C, has feats of completely matching a 6-B and has defeated a Regice (who is listed as a 6-A but I can take the argument that Brandon's Regice is simply weaker than the other Regice depicted in the anime). As far as I am concerned, Pikachu would be rather consistent as a 6-B when going all out.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Ok

No, it's still outiler, considering that a High 6-C fought a 5-B does not make sense and Alai'n Charizard has shown to be able to have consistently fighting other Mega Evolutions, Primal Groudon is 84 Zettatons and was overpowered by Base Rayquaza , which is far weaker than its Mega form (420 Zettatons) which is capable of fighting Deoxys which fought Base Mewtwo, and Zygarde 50% is slighty weaker than Xernears who make a feat of 717 Zettatons, it has nothing to do with the anime but yes with other medias, I'm saying and moreover when Mega Rayquaza got really serious he one-shotted Primals Groudon and Kyogre and also made them revert to their Base Formes and faint

This is true

Make a CRT then upgrade to Ash's Pikachu, and no, we treat all versions of the Regice as equals and composites, or else Mewtwo would have several profiles because of its various versions of games, manga and spin-offs

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I think IMHO the only trainer who has the most consistent feats of matching legendaries is USUM's Sun and Moon , and it's debatably too consistent:

- Statement that only USUM's equivalent of Champions can handle Ultra Beasts and fight them.

- Fought Sivally numerous times

- Impressed Necrozma

- Impressed Tapu Koko and considered the trainer a rival .

- Defeated Ultra Necrozma

- Defeating Rainbow Rocket ( who each of the main leaders had Legendaries as their main pokemon, each of them being stronger and have completed their goal . One of them even said the trainer has strength rivaling that of his legendary )

- Defeating Gladion at least twice after him gaining Sivally, in which he used Sivally every time afterward

- Defeating Multiple Ultra Beasts throughout the regular story

- Defeating USUM Red whose stated by WoG to have the strongest pokemon in Pokemon History as of then, and stated to be the strongest trainer which should include Rainbow Rocket.

The only reason why it isn't included is because of inconsistency issues involving trainers equaling some legendaries, but I feel some trainers can have a acception if they are portrayed as much stringer than every other trainer in their storyline. They even stated the trainer didn't go all out in any of his battles and considered battling merely as a game, meaning he's very casual while doing it.

But that is beside the point. Comp.Ash for reasons above.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Well, I think the biggest outlier of Pokémon would be Lucas/Dawn fought and capturing Giratina