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Rebirth Flash 2-C, possibly 2-A addition

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Emirp sumitpo

Emirp sumitpo

VS Battles
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This is only for Rebirth Speedsters. Post-Crisis Speedsters don't scale to this.

In Dark Crisis: Big Bang (December 13, 2022). Barry Allen forces himself to go all out in an effort save Wallace and defeat the Anti-Monitor asap, a punch so powerful he calls it "The mightiest punch in the Multiverse" with near infinite mass and said attack could warp space-time and send the Anti-Monitor through other universes. Barry could also survive multiple attacks from the Anti-Monitor shortly after.

It's important to note Barry rarely goes at this level as it's very dangerous to pull this sort of thing normally, and Barry only did it because of the dire situation at hand. Wallace's life was on the line, he knew the danger the Anti-Monitor posed, and the fact they already have the Great Darkness to deal, if the Anti-Monitor were to be added to the pile, things would obviously be catastrophic. So this should only scale to Barry at his peak.

Abilities this should grant him would also be:

Who scales to this?

I think the first obvious one is Wally West, as Wally is consistently stated to be superior to Barry, though I'm sure a lot of us already know that, and should obviously scale above this feat.

These other ones are a bit tricky and I would prefer these ones to be discussed here.

Others is a bit tricky. Reverse Flash is consistently shown to be Barry's equal, as well as Thawne getting his powers from Barry's suit. Barry even admits at one point that Thawne is faster than him (The Flash (2016) #23), and Thawne even states himself to be superior (The Flash (2016) #25). Thawne also fought a completely bloodlusted Barry in The Flash (2016) #27. This is evident by Barry already being enraged by Thawne almost killing Iris, beating Wallace to a pulp, and leaving Barry to die in the Negative Speed Force. That and around this time of the story, Barry was already extremely paranoid about what Thawne might do his friends after what he did to Batman a few issues earlier (Batman (2016) #20), and Barry having Hallucinations of Thawne harming his friends and Hal (The Flash (2016) #23). In their fight as well, Barry threatens to kill Thawne multiple times and eventually overpowers him.

Before anyone argues that Barry was amped by the Negative Speed Force or something, there's nothing that indicates that the Negative Speed Force amps Barry's speed or anything. The most it does is amp his aura around him, and makes it more destructive, but nothing more. (The Flash (2016) #28)

The other two is Hunter Zolomon and Black Flash. The Black Flash repeatedly stated to be superior to Barry (Both are from The Flash (2016) #76 , 78 and 81 in that order), and considering the dire situation at hand and Barry has shown that he's willing to not hold back against the Black Flash (The Flash (2016) #76), and the Black Flash is not even a person, I think it's reasonable he could scale to a peak Barry. Hunter with all 4 forces is able to match the Black Flash as well in that same issue.

New ratings:

Barry Allen: Varies with speed, up to Solar System level normally, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ at his peak (While going all out and approaching infinite mass, Barry was able to knock and damage the Anti-Monitor's armor, as well as knock him through several universes)

Wally West: Varies with speed, up to Solar System level normally, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ at his peak (Stated to be superior to Barry Allen)

Debatable additions:

Eobard Thawne: Varies with speed, up to Solar System level normally, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ at his peak (Shown to be comparable to Barry if not superior to him, was able to fight against a completely bloodlusted Barry Allen, though he was eventually outmatched)

Black Flash: Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ (Stated to be superior to Barry Allen numerous times, and even while Barry was not holding back against the Black Flash, it still remained superior)

Hunter Zolomon: Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ with all 4 forces (Required all 4 forces in order to combat the Black Flash, once he did so, he was able to fight evenly against it)

I'd like to discuss the validity of the last 3 in here.
 
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He knocked him through several universes not infinite universes.
We have a statement of Hundred, but after that he kept knocking him, so the correct rating should be "2-C, possibly 2-B"
 
Pain_to12 said:
not infinite universes.
Click to expand...
I never said that.

Pain_to12 said:
We have a statement of Hundred, but after that he kept knocking him, so the correct rating should be "2-C, possibly 2-B"
Click to expand...
possibly 2-A is because the Anti-Monitor is 2-C, possibly 2-A.

This is about scaling Barry to him. Knocking someone through universes is not an AP feat afaik.

I link his profile in the OP.
 
Looks good to me, but you might want to mention him using a variant of the IMP in the justification.

Also, would this upgrade his durability too since Newton's Third Law + him surviving AM's blast for multiple pages?
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
Looks good to me, but you might want to mention him using a variant of the IMP in the justification.
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Maybe? But then again, it's not exactly called the IMP, nor is IMP even an official name.

Ehnkr2beboh said:
Also, would this upgrade his durability too since Newton's Third Law + him surviving AM's blast for multiple pages?
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Forgot to add that, but yeah, it should be in his overall stats.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Maybe? But then again, it's not exactly called the IMP, nor is IMP even an official name.
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Well, he said he was at "near infinite mass" and the space time stuff is similar to what's been stated about the IMP affecting space time in the past, so I think it was something like that.

You are right that IMP isn't a real name, but I believe that's what we call the whole "speedsters big strong while moving around/at light-speed" thing on his page atm.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
Well, he said he was at "near infinite mass" and the space time stuff is similar to what's been stated about the IMP affecting space time in the past, so I think it was something like that.

You are right that IMP isn't a real name, but I believe that's what we call the whole "speedsters big strong while moving around/at light-speed" thing on his page atm.
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We sometimes call it the Relativistic Mass Punch but, this feat isn't stated to use that here.
 
This seems to make sense to me at least, as long as the Anti-Monitor was at full power at the time. Geoff Johnns has depicted him as only being of universal or even galactic scale at times, for example.
 
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Antvasima said:
This seems to make sense to me at least, as long as the Anti-Monitor was at full power at the time. Geoff Johnns has depicted him as only being of universal or even galactic scale at times, for example.
Click to expand...
I mean this is by Mark Waid, and Geoff Johns doesn't write any of the current main DC titles afaik.
 
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Emirp sumitpo said:
Debatable additions:

Eobard Thawne: Varies with speed, up to Solar System level normally, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ at his peak (Shown to be comparable to Barry if not superior to him, was able to fight against a completely bloodlusted Barry Allen, though he was eventually outmatched)

Black Flash: Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ (Stated to be superior to Barry Allen numerous times, and even while Barry was not holding back against the Black Flash, it still remained superior)

Hunter Zolomon: Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ with all 4 forces (Required all 4 forces in order to combat the Black Flash, once he did so, he was able to fight evenly against it)

I'd like to discuss the validity of the last 3 in here.
Click to expand...
If Barry did this same "infinite mass" feat with them, then I would say to scale them. If not, then I don't think they should scale unless they themselves can replicate what Barry did
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
If Barry did this same "infinite mass" feat with them, then I would say to scale them. If not, then I don't think they should scale unless they themselves can replicate what Barry did
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It's a bit sketchy in terms of the Black Flash and Hunter scaling, but in the case of Thawne, Barry was legit trying to kill him during this feat, and considering Thawne gains his abilities from Barry, him being consistently portrayed as Barry's equal if not straight up greater, and him getting his powers from Barry, I think Thawne could likely scale to Barry.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
It's a bit sketchy in terms of the Black Flash and Hunter scaling, but in the case of Thawne, Barry was legit trying to kill him during this feat, and considering Thawne gains his abilities from Barry, him being consistently portrayed as Barry's equal if not straight up greater, and him getting his powers from Barry, I think Thawne could likely scale to Barry.
Click to expand...
The problem is, he might've tried to kill him, but did he use this specific technique? Because Flash can vary greatly depending on how much of the speed force he decides to use given a situation. And Barry himself states what's the specific requirement to do this feat: Accelerate to "almost infinite mass" then manipulate "vibrational energies". It's very specific imo
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The problem is, he might've tried to kill him, but did he use this specific technique? Because Flash can vary greatly depending on how much of the speed force he decides to use given a situation. And Barry himself states what's the specific requirement to do this feat: Accelerate to "almost infinite mass" then manipulate "vibrational energies". It's very specific imo
Click to expand...
In DC moving at light speed increases your mass to infinite especially for "speedsters" plus about the energy drawn, Negative speed force is equal or greater than positive speed force since it consumes it, so Eobard should have enough energy to pull it off especially since he himself powers the Negative speed force with every step he takes. And about manipulating Vibrational energies Eobard thawne is a master of that, he even held the Vibrational frequency in his hands that could destroy the world. His been manipulating Vibrational energies since pre crisis till currently but of recent he uses it to just manipulate characters and do other things other speedsters do but not offensively.
 
Vondoom said:
In DC moving at light speed increases your mass to infinite especially for "speedsters" plus about the energy drawn, Negative speed force is equal or greater than positive speed force since it consumes it, so Eobard should have enough energy to pull it off especially since he himself powers the Negative speed force with every step he takes. And about manipulating Vibrational energies Eobard thawne is a master of that, he even held the Vibrational frequency in his hands that could destroy the world. His been manipulating Vibrational energies since pre crisis till currently but of recent he uses it to just manipulate characters and do other things other speedsters do but not offensively.
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If you can get scans of that to compare with Barry's recent explanation of the feat, that would be great as support for scaling
 
Eobard manipulating Vibrational energies is in his profile but that to destroy the world is in pre-crisis though pre-crisis was referenced in the book but it won't make sense to use a pre-crisis scan on rebirth.

Anything Barry can do Eobard thawne can, his even believed to be faster than Barry by "Joshua Williamson" current writer of dark crisis event.
 
Then I personally would only support a "possibly" or "likely"

If others deem that their history as being comparable on all respects and even Flash becoming bloodlusted against him and both still fighting equally as enough to support a solid rating, I won't oppose it.

Edit: The reason I'm being so conservative with scaling here is because of the nature of Flash's feats, where they depend heavily on context (which honestly applies a lot to DC's stuff). When you have that, combined with our rules with power scaling comics, it becomes increasingly difficult to fine a balance of feats and scaling that doesn't immediately get contradicted. Given the history Barry specifically has with and against the Anti-Monitor (combined with the nature of the feat here, being a specific technique of his that he elaborates normally wouldn't even do), I support his direct scaling here as straight forward. Ditto with Wally, who we are straight up shown he's superior to Barry in virtually all respects. But when it comes to other characters, even other speedsters, I become more strict with the abundance of scaling precisely because of the specifics in application. Eobard may be able to manipulate vibrational energies, but is he shown to be able to manipulate them in the specific way that Barry does here, to more or less achieve the same results? That's where my doubt comes in.
 
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Vondoom said:
Anything Barry can do Eobard thawne can, his even believed to be faster than Barry by "Joshua Williamson" current writer of dark crisis event.
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If he can achieve exactly the same feats as Barry, this should be reflected on his profile, as that imo is way more solid a reason for scaling.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
If he can achieve exactly the same feats as Barry, this should be reflected on his profile, as that imo is way more solid a reason for scaling.
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He should be able to but Eobard fights in a different way from Barry and wally as he method of fighting mostly deals with time, possibly for Eobard would be the best option since his comparable or even greater than Barry.
 
Possibly for Zoom I agree, then.

The others (aside from Wally) shouldn't scale imo, for what I said earlier. Unless something more solid is brought up.
 
Yes, but Wally caused much more damage.
 
Ok so I guess scaling for Thawne seems mostly agreed upon.

But Hunter and Black Flash seem to mostly be sus?
 
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