Ram VS Sukuna (11-5-1) GRACE

[SatellaTheWoE]

Hooooonk mimimimimimi

I didnt know fc/oc content mods were so free
To sleep in between a battle of 2 demons???
Atrocious

 

[CurrySenpai]

I didnt know fc/oc content mods were so free
To sleep in between a battle of 2 demons???
Atrocious

If I was in any anime universe you bet your ass I would sleep in the middle of fights bro.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If I was in any anime universe you bet your ass I would sleep in the middle of fights bro.

Reinhard being shredded to pieces by Regulus's farts, meanwhile curry senpai:
🛏

 

[CurrySenpai]

Reinhard being shredded to pieces by Regulus's farts, meanwhile curry senpai:
🛏

Oh yeah how long will you be on tonight, I’ll reply in a bit

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Oh yeah how long will you be on tonight, I’ll reply in a bit

Its morning for me so i will be here for a while

 

[VortechsTG]

Snip

Ram FRA

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

@V999 also update Sukuna's value that he actually scales to which is 115 tons in the op

 

[CurrySenpai]

@V999 also update Sukuna's value that he actually scales to which is 115 tons in the op

Not yet technically the updated weren’t applied

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Not yet technically the updated weren’t applied

His profile is linked to the 115 tons, the actual downgrade takes him to tier 8B

There isnt even a mention of 260 tons being on his profile tbh
Also remove all the votes that were made for Sukuna prior to when the AP change was mentioned @IamMadeOutOfStone , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit and @TauanVictor would need to revote

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

.......

...........
Do you need me to explain to you why method of sensing something is different from how much and what they can precog?
I do not care if Maki doesn't "need" to sense her opponents attacks, first of all that seems to basically be untrue, she just senses the changes in her environments. Which isn't that different from what Ram does normally without claravoyance, and in no way shape or form is her AP superior to Ram's.
Do you serioùsly think being able to sense environmental changes (which btw is an ESP feat NOT an AP feat) is better than reading their opponents minds? Do you have no sense of shame while claiming that?

Also worth mentioning that Old Wilhelm who is just slightly above her in the skill chain can actually dodge/counter attacks without needing to sense them at all. In fact Garfiel and Julius can as well and they are below her in the skill chain, meaning she probably can as well.

Scans clearly says predict not sense stop trying to push whatever comes to your mind. If you disagree go downgrade this. Also Predicting with keen Eyesight ≠ Predicting with complete surroundings environment changes. Maki has no blind spot whole Ram does.

• Enhanced Senses, Extrasensory Perception, Analytical Prediction (Able to see curses which are invisible to the naked eye. Her regular senses should be sharp to the point she can pick up on human odors and footprints like Toji. Her eyes also can see the differences in temperature and density of air, she is also able to predict how one will move based off this[9])

If you still want to push keen eyesight > analytic prediction based on environmental changes. Agree to disagree here.

Enough straying, Sukuna is not comparable to Ram. She takes every single category here, DA isn't available without further proof and DE isnt in character for him to start off with fast enough before Ram either snipes, Al fura's or wind jail his neck to hell

DA is available here. Just because he didn't had opponents who are worthy to use ≠ he wouldn't use in this key. That's not how it works. Characters uses their skills with IQ. He has one heck BIQ enough to fool Gojo and is an Reincarnated Sorcerer. His skills were from when he was alive. DA isn't stated to be he obtained after reincarnation. He has fought many battles he choses abilities suitable for his battle situations. So stop trying to chip away abilities just because your character might lose to it.

Anyway this is my last reply. I don't think we will get anywhere with this back & forth. So Agree to disagree if you still stand with your arguments. I will stand with mine.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

His profile is linked to the 115 tons, the actual downgrade takes him to tier 8B

There isnt even a mention of 260 tons being on his profile tbh
Also remove all the votes that were made for Sukuna prior to when the AP change was mentioned @IamMadeOutOfStone , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit and @TauanVictor would need to revote

Well if downgrade takes him to 8-B this match can't be added. Either change Ram key to 8-B or just close this.

 

[LordGinSama]

Switch it to Prime Megukana smh

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway current argument for both?

 

[Phoenks]

This is wild. 5 pages of GUNK.

Anyway, Ram wins pretty easily ngl.

Better skill, wild clairvoyance, better range, can dodge danmaku shit hugely faster than herself on instinct, has invisible wind projectiles, can dodge invisible projectiles, etc.

Sukuna is often very overconfident and won't lead with his win conditions so I see him just getting slashed up by stuff he can't even see most of the time. Also, he isn't even close to being as skilled, he lacks all types of feats. Sure, he proved himself to be decent against Gojo, I guess? And Maki/Yuji? But none of them have done anything remotely comparable to Re: Zero people dodging layered invisible attacks and 100x faster stuff etc.

 

[LordGinSama]

Normal Cleave can be dodged but if it's in his Domain then there's no dodging for her.

 

[Phoenks]

Normal Cleave can be dodged but if it's in his Domain then there's no dodging for her.

Assuming he opens a Domain before being cut to death, that is.

Which, I honestly don't think would be an in-character move. He hasn't started with a Domain against anyone in the series.

Ram doesn't have time to waste. The moment she's in-battle she's on a strict time limit, so she will immediately go for her kill with what's she's got — invisible danmaku wind blade dura neg attacks to snipe him from a range that is outside of his domain range, for one, and also aided by her clairvoyance granting her prediction that is better than reading minds and ESP.

 

[LordGinSama]

Which, I honestly don't think would be an in-character move. He hasn't started with a Domain against anyone in the series.

Absolutely. I wasn't arguing that'd be his first move but for the life of me I really don't wanna read 5 pages of dumb shit to see what the current arguments are tbh.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Absolutely. I wasn't arguing that'd be his first move but for the life of me I really don't wanna read 5 pages of dumb shit to see what the current arguments are tbh.

I'm just gonna list Sukuna side arguments.

• He dodges the attacks if not he will use DA to null it.
• Has better stamina than Ram. So he will outlive her.
• He already has feats for damaging character who has same or higher analytical prediction skills than Ram (He fought fully realised Maki & damaged her in H2H)
• Domain as a last resort.

Well if Sukuna AP gets downgraded for 2/3F to 8-B this match should be closed or OP should change Ram to 8-B key.

 

[Phoenks]

He dodges the attacks if not he will use DA to null it.

How can he dodge attacks he can not see? Ram's invisible attacks are invisible to people who have better sensory abilities than Sukuna.

Has better stamina than Ram

Not really relevant, the fight won't go on for long. Ram's attacks neg durability to an extent.

He already has feats for damaging character who has same or higher analytical prediction skills than Ram (He fought fully realised Maki & damaged her in H2H)

Maki does not have anything remotely close to Ram dodging attacks tens of times faster than her and being stated to have prediction that is better than straight-up mind reading. Maki is a skill fraud fr.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I think this thread is dead anyways since Sukuna is supposedly going to 8-B.

Top Ten reasons why making JJK matchups is annoying.

 

[Arkenis]

He dodges the attacks if not he will use DA to null it.

Only shows Da during Gojo fight when he had far more energy. Idk why this keeps getting argued but Da stops CT not other verse abilities.

He already has feats for damaging character who has same or higher analytical prediction skills than Ram (He fought fully realised Maki & damaged her in H2H)

Do you genuinely think Maki’s senses are for h2h combat? It is almost exclusively shown to be efficient from range not up close against someone like Ram read her sensory capabilities they surpass just sensing changes in the air

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

How can he dodge attacks he can not see? Ram's invisible attacks are invisible to people who have better sensory abilities than Sukuna.

Sukuna skills has perception enough to sense souls and abstract beings like Curses you need to prove Ram attacks goes far beyond invisibility than that.

Not really relevant, the fight won't go on for long. Ram's attacks neg durability to an extent.

If he can dodge the attacks match would go on that long and he would unless you prove that he lacks perception to perceive her attacks as I mentioned above his perception is top notch in the verse.

Maki does not have anything remotely close to Ram dodging attacks tens of times faster than her and being stated to have prediction that is better than straight-up mind reading.

Agree to disagree I'm not gonna go in back and forth again which already discussed with other re zero fan above.

Maki is a skill fraud fr.

I agree she is a fraud but definitely not that much of an fraud when comes to her predictions skills.

 

[Arkenis]

I think this thread is dead anyways since Sukuna is supposedly going to 8-B.

Top Ten reasons why making JJK matchups is annoying.

Yeah idk why matches keep being made with them especially just for Gojo and Sukuna

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Sukuna skills has perception enough to sense souls and abstract beings like Curses you need to prove Ram attacks goes far beyond invisibility than that.

Ram and Ley can senss mana,Od (which is stated to be equivalent to a soul), intent, hostility, prescence, aura etc. While also having massively superior senses to normal humans, heck they can even dodge attacks they CANNOT sense and even hit your vitals while all of their senses have been cut off.and they still got hit by the wind jail. Its on you to prove that Sukuna can do better than them

If he can dodge the attacks match would go on that long and he would unless you prove that he lacks perception to perceive her attacks as I mentioned above his perception is top notch in the verse.

In his verse sure, but in ReZero he is Elsa level which is mid low tier

Agree to disagree I'm not gonna go in back and forth again which already discussed with other re zero fan above.

I agree she is a fraud but definitely not that much of an fraud when comes to her predictions skills.

You do know that Ram has Maki's exact same feat of prediction and its specifically stated that hers is way better than that?

@Arkenis literally dropped this a page ago smh

Ram's sixth sense lets her sense a shift in wind, something similar to what Maki does where she can sense the changes in the air around her. They nearly the same in function.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Only shows Da during Gojo fight when he had far more energy.

Show me scans where it was stated DA works based on big CE reserves. Or only characters with big CE reserves can use that.

Idk why this keeps getting argued but Da stops CT not other verse abilities.

DA does not stop CT alone it nulls technique also. Technique.
Also Verse Equalization should be possible here unless you explain why verse Equalization doesn't work.

Do you genuinely think Maki’s senses are for h2h combat? It is almost exclusively shown to be efficient from range not up close against someone like Ram read her sensory capabilities they surpass just sensing changes in the air

It's not just H2H he landed a hit on her on mid air where Naoya who amped his speed still got dodges by Maki in mid and he already tried to blitz her on close range.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

DA does not stop CT alone it nulls technique also. Technique.
Also Verse Equalization should be possible here unless you explain why verse Equalization doesn't work.

None of ReZero's power system even remotely match with JJK's, thats why.
They aren't similar enough to be equalized.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

None of ReZero's power system even remotely match with JJK's, thats why. They aren't similar enough to be equalized

Cursed Energy is mentioned to be something similar to magic by Gojo when he tried to Teach Yuji. You better explain how Rezero power system works so that we can work if DA nulls the attacks or not.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Cursed Energy is mentioned to be something similar to magic by Gojo when he tried to Teach Yuji.

brorher magic in differenr verses sometimes work too differently to be equalized

You better explain how Rezero power system works so that we can work if DA nulls the attacks or not.

ReZero has multiple power systems:
1. The Divine blessings/Protections: Sepcial abilities granted to people who are more favored by Od Laguna who is basically the creator of the verse. The most loved one is Reinhard Van Astrea and you probably have heard of him before
2. Authorities: Abikities created from an Unknown origin made to oppose rhe world (Od Laguna) itself. These are the most bullshit things in verse and are canonically the strongest. These include stuff like Subaru’s rbd which allows him to go back in time each time he dies, Regulus's Lions Heart which puts him outside of Space-time, exustence, reality etc etc and basically makes him uninteractable to 99% of things in verse, Ley Batenkaitos's Gluttony which allows him to "eat" a person's name or memory essentially erasing them from the world, erasing anybodys memory of them ever existing and erasing any proof of their existence, Echidna's Tome of Wisdom which basicalky gave her infinite knowledge on past,present and future etc.
3. The flow method: literally just read the blog i sent on it
4. Magic: people use mana from the atmosphere and inside of themselves to manifest some form of elemental mastery they are compatible with. This includes bullshit like EMM which is similar to Lion's heart and puts you outside of Space-time and reality itself, EMT which nullifies magic and was made to counter the greatest Magician of all time Roswaal L Mathers, also includes Minya which are time stopped crystals and which stop your time and shatter you etc, so it can get pretty abstract, Wind magic is part of this and it cannot be sensed by Ley Batenkaitos who by feats is top 5 in verse based on skill alone. Sukuna doesn't have enough senses to even percieve this bullshit forget characters who can deal with non sensible bullshit who still got tagged
5. Spirit arts: people who are compatibke with spirits make contracts and do bs shit bevause spirits have low godly regen

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ram and Ley can senss mana,Od (which is stated to be equivalent to a soul), intent, hostility, prescence, aura etc. While also having massively superior senses to normal humans, heck they can even dodge attacks they CANNOT sense and even hit your vitals while all of their senses have been cut off.and they still got hit by the wind jail. Its on you to prove that Sukuna can do better than them

His profile already has enough information to prove his perception is able to perceive souls and damage Mahito, who only gets damaged when his soul is damaged, to damage him they need to perceive soul. He also has enhanced invisible slashes which Yuji can't perceive, despite being able to perceive souls. Sukuna's perception goes to that level, hs can see his own enhanced invisible Slashes.

intent, hostility, prescence, aura etc

Your other arguments don't carry much weight. This is a common ability, anyone can perceive it. I don't know why you are arguing this as far beyond the feats of perceiving the soul. Check the cursed energy manipulation page, there are already multiple scans and explanations for aura. Perceiving aura is not a big deal. The same goes for vital arguments.

So take some time and provide me with a better argument for invisibility, not just arguments like 'Perceiving the aura is better than perceiving the souls'.

Aura < Curses < Soul < Sukuna slashes.
atleast Sukuna has this much of an perception. Try to prove Ram attacks far surpasses this & can bypass Sukuna perception.

In his verse sure, but in ReZero he is Elsa level which is mid low tier

You do know that Ram has Maki's exact same feat of prediction and its specifically stated that hers is way better than that?

@Arkenis literally dropped this a page ago smh

As I already said I'm not gonna bother with this AP. So let's not continue this. Don't want to drag this thing out.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

His profile already has enough information to prove his perception is able to perceive souls and damage Mahito, who only gets damaged when his soul is damaged, to damage him they need to perceive soul. He also has enhanced invisible slashes which Yuji can't perceive, despite being able to perceive souls. Sukuna's perception goes to that level, hs can see his own enhanced invisible Slashes.

Your other arguments don't carry much weight. This is a common ability, anyone can perceive it. I don't know why you are arguing this as far beyond the feats of perceiving the soul. Check the cursed energy manipulation page, there are already multiple scans and explanations for aura. Perceiving aura is not a big deal. The same goes for vital arguments.

So take some time and provide me with a better argument for invisibility, not just arguments like 'Perceiving the aura is better than perceiving the souls'.

Aura < Curses < Soul < Sukuna slashes.
atleast Sukuna has this much of an perception. Try to prove Ram attacks far surpasses this & can bypass Sukuna perception.

As I already said I'm not gonna bother with this AP. So let's not continue this. Don't want to drag this thing out.

Makes this shit simple for me
Julius's invisibke sensory<Elsa being able to attack her opponents when she couldnt sense anything<Julius countering attacks that were perception blitzing him via instinctive reaction<Ram's sensory perception being superior<Ley's perception being even more superior<things that both of them cant sense but can still dodge due to skill bs<wind jail
And did you just ignore the part about Od being equivalent to the soul which all of them can sense? There are atleast 2 layers between that and the wind magic

 

[Arkenis]

Show me scans where it was stated DA works based on big CE reserves. Or only characters with big CE reserves can use that.

That isn’t my point? Da takes ce though, using it in a key where his ce is drastically lower just isn’t a smart idea.

DA does not stop CT alone it nulls technique also. Technique.
Also Verse Equalization should be possible here unless you explain why verse Equalization doesn't work.

Please show us what techniques in JJK aren't cursed techniques.

It's not just H2H he landed a hit on her on mid air where Naoya who amped his speed still got dodges by Maki in mid and he already tried to blitz her on close range.

Mid air? You got a crazy definition of mid air lmao.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Honestly all of this is still pretty useless to debate, there is like almost a 0 chance Sukuna would open with DA or DE and it would be far too late for him by the time he does

Also Ram can actually just close the distance and beat the shit out of him due to being physically superior and also outskilling him in every category

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Makes this shit simple for me
Julius's invisibke sensory<Elsa being able to attack her opponents when she couldnt sense anything<Julius countering attacks that were perception blitzing him via instinctive reaction<Ram's sensory perception being superior<Ley's perception being even more superior<things that both of them cant sense but can still dodge due to skill bs<wind jail
And did you just ignore the part about Od being equivalent to the soul which all of them can sense? There are atleast 2 layers between that and the wind magic

Show me scans for any of the character you mentioned sensing souls or that Od being same as Soul. So are you claiming that Od or something is below Wind Magic invisibility?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Show me scans for any of the character you mentioned sensing souls or that Od being same as Soul.

Od- the core of their being, which is the owner's life energy and synonymous with the soul[2]-

So are you claiming that Od or something is below Wind Magic invisibility?

By feats alone? Yes, this specific magic was specially designed and was the peak culmination of a certain someone's lifelong training. But Ley stole it and then Ram copied it by seeing it once


..Actually isnt this pretty irrelevant because wind magic itself doesn't have an Od, people do? It would lack a soul regardless so Sukuna wouldn't sense it via that either

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That isn’t my point? Da takes ce though, using it in a key where his ce is drastically lower just isn’t a smart idea.

DA Takes CE but it never mentioned as it takes as much as using CT or DE.

Please show us what techniques in JJK aren't cursed techniques.

I think you misunderstood what i said Resulting technique are not necessarily based on cursed energy. For example

Mid air? You got a crazy definition of mid air lmao.

She has acrobatics skills and all 3 off them were in similar position. That still falling to some extent beside isn't this still a better feat compared to what happened against Naoya.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Od- the core of their being, which is the owner's life energy and synonymous with the soul[2]-

Ok I agree with Od being same as level Soul now. But can you show the scans for people sensing this and Rem attacks bypassing those senses I didn't see that in the profile.

By feats alone? Yes, this specific magic was specially designed and was the peak culmination of a certain someone's lifelong training. But Ley stole it and then Ram copied it by seeing it once

..Actually isnt this pretty irrelevant because wind magic itself doesn't have an Od, people do? It would lack a soul regardless so Sukuna wouldn't sense it via that either

Well lacking something is not the same as not being able to sense. Non living things can lack souls doesn't mean others can't perceive them.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

brorher magic in differenr verses sometimes work too differently to be equalized

ReZero has multiple power systems:
1. The Divine blessings/Protections: Sepcial abilities granted to people who are more favored by Od Laguna who is basically the creator of the verse. The most loved one is Reinhard Van Astrea and you probably have heard of him before
2. Authorities: Abikities created from an Unknown origin made to oppose rhe world (Od Laguna) itself. These are the most bullshit things in verse and are canonically the strongest. These include stuff like Subaru’s rbd which allows him to go back in time each time he dies, Regulus's Lions Heart which puts him outside of Space-time, exustence, reality etc etc and basically makes him uninteractable to 99% of things in verse, Ley Batenkaitos's Gluttony which allows him to "eat" a person's name or memory essentially erasing them from the world, erasing anybodys memory of them ever existing and erasing any proof of their existence, Echidna's Tome of Wisdom which basicalky gave her infinite knowledge on past,present and future etc.
3. The flow method: literally just read the blog i sent on it
4. Magic: people use mana from the atmosphere and inside of themselves to manifest some form of elemental mastery they are compatible with. This includes bullshit like EMM which is similar to Lion's heart and puts you outside of Space-time and reality itself, EMT which nullifies magic and was made to counter the greatest Magician of all time Roswaal L Mathers, also includes Minya which are time stopped crystals and which stop your time and shatter you etc, so it can get pretty abstract, Wind magic is part of this and it cannot be sensed by Ley Batenkaitos who by feats is top 5 in verse based on skill alone. Sukuna doesn't have enough senses to even percieve this bullshit forget characters who can deal with non sensible bullshit who still got tagged
5. Spirit arts: people who are compatibke with spirits make contracts and do bs shit bevause spirits have low godly regen

Thanks for your time explaining this. Ok I don't think verse Equalization works here but I was re reading DA explanation from the manga it seems it works like a absorption of techniques into Empty space instead of literal powernull. So I need to discuss that with other JJk supporters to clarify how we consider that properly so I will drop DA Argument for now.

 

[Arkenis]

DA Takes CE but it never mentioned as it takes as much as using CT or DE.

That's fine if you think that, it still requires curse energy and the bigger issue is that Sukuna can't use his ct if he does it. He'll be at a disadvantage using it or not using it and someone like Ram would exploit that.

I think you misunderstood what i said Resulting technique are not necessarily based on cursed energy. For example

I don't know what you're trying to say.

She has acrobatics skills and all 3 off them were in similar position. That still falling to some extent beside isn't this still a better feat compared to what happened against Naoya.

No its not a better feat. Maki was leaping building to building dodging Naoya and moving in mid air, here against Sukuna, she can't even react. It implies more that against someone equal to her or greater it doesn't help.

DA explanation from the manga it seems it works like a absorption of techniques into Empty space instead of literal powernull.

Nah its really just a simple domain pseudo armor thing. Gojo just explains its like being surrounded by water and that water pushes against the ct like when they push against a domain.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's fine if you think that, it still requires curse energy and the bigger issue is that Sukuna can't use his ct if he does it. He'll be at a disadvantage using it or not using it and someone like Ram would exploit that.

Well my intention was never for Sukuna to Win by using his CT. I was talking about him dragging the match longer and winning by outlasting Ram.

No its not a better feat. Maki was leaping building to building dodging Naoya and moving in mid air, here against Sukuna, she can't even react. It implies more that against someone equal to her or greater it doesn't help.

Naoya had higher stats though in speed

Nah its really just a simple domain pseudo armor thing. Gojo just explains its like being surrounded by water and that water pushes against the ct like when they push against a domain.

Kusakabe states Domain Amplification creates a domain around the user while CT gets pushed to that empty space. Domain amplification lacks sure hit like Domain Expansion so it's gonna take opponent CT inside the space for that. Though it's better we discussed this in JJK thread don't want to derail this here.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I am assuming we are thoroughly done with that part. This honestly seems like a decisive victory for Ram-

Oh and @V999 pls update the votes and the AP values in the OP