Raditz and Saiyan Saga Tiers Downgrade To 6-A - 5-C

[Yellaninjaa]

In 23rd Budokai Piccolo is Small Country Level for almost destroying Papaya Island (Small Country feat) https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/184/13 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/184/12 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/190/8 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/190/9

5 years later Raditz comes to earth and confronts piccolo was had gotten stronger over the 5 years but his attack didn't even destroy the small mountain they were standing on

Piccolo's Mountain Level Attack:

The mountain https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/17 The attack https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 The after effects https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/20 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/22

The mountain is still in tact and only a few grass hairs were burnt

Raditz can dodge both of Piccolo and Goku's attacks (MHS+) https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/200/4 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/200/6

(Raditz Mountain+ attack scaling to Continent )

Raditz energy attacks caused this The attack https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/200/8 The after effects https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/200/10 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/200/11

Raditz catches Goku blast https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/201/10

A casual blast from Raditz does this to Goku https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/201/11

Raditz is at least 20 - 30 meters from piccolo https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/201/13

Raditz dodges piccolo blast which hollows out a mountain hundreds of meters behind them https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/202/5

Kid Gohan with a rage boost was able to break out of Saiyan space pod which has at least city+ Level durability for surviving Nappa's finger attack and tanking crash landings on earth. https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/202/13 https://images.app.goo.gl/dtRiQR9FJmHdScjN6

Practically kills Raditz with a headbutt

Few days later Piccolo could destroy the DBZ moon to make Gohan lose his transformation so plot based reasons is why he destroyed it https://images.app.goo.gl/Abk92nBsCU9ZcRMdA

We do not know the size of DBZ moon. On DBZ moon there is oxygen and rabbits live there https://images.app.goo.gl/m7fKo8Uz5u4FFbW17 There's also the fact that the DB moon can be destroyed without having any negative effects on the planet.

So either Moon is Continent+ sized or it's PIS and beginning of z tiers should be downgraded to Continent+ to Multi Continent.

The only case you can possibly make here uses the very same egregiously flawed power scaling and ABC logic that really only applies to a single category (destructive capacity).

Raditz never shows moon level attacks or durability. He just blows up a few mountains and gets almost killed by kid Gohan headbutt that can destroy Saiyan spaceships that tank city level explosions. Only reason Raditz was moon Level cus piccolo later blows up moon, yet he never shows this level or close enough to this level of DC earlier. So without piccolos feat of destroying moon beginning of z tiers should be downgraded from planet to continent+ Level. No one was technically Planet Level until Saiyan Saga Vegeta with Galick Gun.

 

[AstralKing7]

Interesting interesting

 

[Kepekley23]

> literally every single anti-feat in the OP

Ki Control.

> We do not know the size of DBZ moo

Akira Toriyama stated on an interview that the Dragon Ball moon is 384,400 kilometers away from Earth, just like the real moon, which suggests that the general parameters are the same as in real life.

> There's also the fact that the DB moon can be destroyed without having any negative effects on the planet.

I guess you believe no one in fiction is FTL as well. The aftermath does not have to be consistent.

I see little point in not closing this thread immediately, but I guess I will let it slide for a few posts before doing so.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Even with Ki Control we can't skip the inconsistency of it

This looks like the same attack that piccolo destroyed the moon with

It looked like piccolo put in the same effort to blow up Raditz as e did with the moon. Yet even with Ki control shouldn't his attack destroyed the area or at least the cliff they were standing on ?

Piccolo face and body when he nukes moon https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 The mountain https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/17 Piccolo face and body when he attacks Raditz https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 The after effects https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/20 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/22

Whenever a attack is concentrated it seems to cause less AOE, yet when it's casual the attacks are more destructive it seems. I've seen people literally try to scale every z fighter in Saiyan Saga to moon level and Moon busters based on that feat.


But Piccolo moon bust is the only thing that gives the cast scaling of attack potency and speed feats past that point in the manga to where we say they are Planet Level and FTL or super FTE relativistic. N it's from a weaker version of piccolo.

Piccolo is a moon buster but is surprised at things like this https://images.app.goo.gl/ijRH7yCnuuZhwqrCA Nappa blasts a hole in the ground but piccolo can literally destroy moons

Piccolo moon feat is Outlier since 5 years earlier his maximum attack is only small country level. For him to be able to go from small country to moon level casually in 5 years is a big jump. N DBZ villain bad guys have Ki control but they are bad guys. They don't care about altering the size of their attacks to save humans. And I doubt they hold back every Ki blast so that it doesn't destroy the area.

Roshi who was tired from blowing up a mountain also blew up moon with same attack. https://images.app.goo.gl/VBFbpqNVYk7Ebizw5 https://images.app.goo.gl/ysnWxC9jEpPLZmnJ8

At this point Roshi is weaker than king piccolo whom could only blow up cities. Roshi even states there is no way he can beat KP. https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/150/6 Roshi says even if Tien, himself, and Chiaztou teamed up they wouldn't be able to beat KP and KP didn't even have his youth power restored yet https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/142/4

So in conclusion Roshi nor piccolo are legit moon busters n the kinetic energy to destroy moon should be far less than the real one

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude in 4 months characters went from 4-C to 3-A in Dragon Ball. Heck, Piccolo himself goes from tier 4 to 3 a in a matter of weeks, if not days, in Super. Five years to get to 5-B is nothing.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Dude in 4 months characters went from 4-C to 3-A in Dragon Ball. Heck, Piccolo himself goes from tier 4 to 3 a in a matter of weeks, if not days, in Super. Five years to get to 5-B is nothing.

Yes but piccolo didn't get that much stronger in those 5 years, neither did Goku besides looking for fish, n chopping wood. King piccolo Power Level is 260. When Raditz comes Goku Power Level is 416. So with that info Goku isn't even twice as stronger than KP who could destroy cities. So they didn't get twice as strong as their 23rd Budokai counterparts that were only small country level.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Yes but piccolo didn't get that much stronger in those 5 years, he gained a little boost and created special beam cannon, more like perfecting techniques in that time to kill Goku, and Goku didn't train that much either besides looking for fish, n chopping wood. King piccolo Power Level is 260. When Raditz comes Goku Power Level is 416. So with that info Goku isn't even twice as stronger than KP who could destroy cities. So they didn't get twice as strong as their 23rd Budokai counterparts that were only small country level.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Power Levels are the epitome of inconsistency and were introduced to show how useless they are. Also keep in mind that small country is well more than twice city level, which goes against your logic there.

Also this is Goku we're talking about. Do you honestly think he spent five years doing nothing but catching fish and spending time with Chi Chi? She can't even keep him in the house for a week later down the line.

 

[KLOL506]

Here's the problem: Power levels in DB are notorious for being bullshit.

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Kepekley23]

> It looked like piccolo put in the same effort to blow up Raditz as e did with the moon. Yet even with Ki control shouldn't his attack destroyed the area or at least the cliff they were standing on ?

No, because Piccolo wanted to blow Raditz away, not the cliff.

Going by your logic, Vegeta's Final Flash, which is uttermost maximum-effort attack, should have blown up the planet, even though it was explicitly stated that Vegeta narrowed the beam's attack range in order to only get Perfect Cell.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Here's the problem: Power levels in DB are notorious for being bullshit.

EDIT: ninja'd

They are still cannon to series as Raditz says what Goku n piccolo Power Levels are. Saibamen are as strong as Raditz by Power Levels yet their self explosion barely left a 5 meter wide crater. And please reframe from "because they had Ki control" Statements which no sense for bad guys. Saibamen blowing up should've Level the entire area based on the power it should contain as Raditz equal. 23rd Budokai Goku n piccolo were only small country level. Without piccolos feat which is PIS, they should be downgraded to 6-A. Raditz and Nappa are both 5-A with Saiyan Saga Vegeta, which should not be the case since Vegeta by Power Levels are more than twice as strong as Raditz n Nappa. Also Vegeta's final attack Galick gun was stated to be able to destroy the planet. Why would Raditz or Nappa scale to this attack when they never shows anything close to this feat.

If Roshi moon feat is a Outlier piccolo feat Of destroying moon should Be Outlier as well since the same attack he used on Raditz earlier didn't even destroy the hill they were standing on.

https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 https://images.app.goo.gl/9z1EJed4BTifiE7t9

And later Raditz attack to Goku n piccolo only destroyed a few mountains, the same Raditz was injured by a headbutt from Gohan that can destroy Saiyan space pods that can tank city explosions.

 

[Kepekley23]

So, according to you, Cell (a "bad guy") would rather destroy the planet than absorb the androids.

This thread is ridiculous at this point.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

So, according to you, Cell (a "bad guy") would rather destroy the planet than absorb the androids.

This thread is ridiculous at this point.

You're obviously trolling and missing the point cus cell don't have jack sh*** to so with this thread. This is a revision about Saiyan Saga tiers and their flawed scaling from a PIS feat.

Piccolo blows up moon but is surprised by this https://images.app.goo.gl/qriS9UCcdM7yxzhE8

Piccolo seriously attacks Raditz oh his all and the effects of attack are this https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/20

Now look at piccolo face when he does same thing to moon it looks exactly the same as his attack to Raditz

You get mad and spout sarcastic lines about me pointing out the overdue inconsistencies DBZ has with their flawed scaling you guys have given them especially in the beginning. Why is Raditz n Nappa planet level 5-A on here when they literally did nothing or fought anyone that was planet level. Goku has to amp himself with Kaio Ken just to match Vegeta's full power Galick gun, that's Planet Level. And you guys are saying Raditz n Nappa who should be way weaker than Goku amped and Vegeta are same tier ? Lol time for some sarcastic jokes https://images.app.goo.gl/QQuWnH7pJaj31Pd9A

 

[Damage3245]

I know Ki Control serves as an explanation for pretty much everything in DBZ but there are some scenes where it doesn't make sense.

Like when Vegeta throws an energy blast down to Frieza. Piccolo asks him if he's trying to destroy the planet (suggesting the blast has planet-level AP) and Frieza looks startled for a second before kicking the blast away into space.

If every blast they threw at each other was planet level, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Piccolo to single out that blast specifically.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

They are literally on a cliff. Even someone with half power of moon or even a quarter would be able to wipe away the cliff without too much effort. Inconsistent and PIS for piccolo moon blast.

Piccolo put in same effort to blow up Raditz as he did moon and is shook when Raditz tanks it

https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/19 https://www.**********.com/dragon-ball/195/20 https://images.app.goo.gl/QQuWnH7pJaj31Pd9A

 

[Damage3245]

Also, can you please link to better sites than **********? I really don't want to visit there for risk of malware.

Link the pages to imgur or use a site like MangaSeeOnline.

 

[Kepekley23]

> You're obviously trolling and missing the point

No, that's the level of your stellar logic, no offense intended. Cell gave "his all" multiple times, be it Imperfect, Semi-Perfect or Perfect. There were scenes where he shot full-power energy blasts at Piccolo and Vegeta at full-power and they missed and exploded against parts of the landscape, doing nothing. Or, as I pointed out, Vegeta's full-power Final Flash, despite being explicitly stated to be capable of easily blowing away the entire Earth, had its range reduced so it could only affect Perfect Cell:

Trunks: "Father calculated it just right so that its range would be small…!"

> Piccolo blows up moon but is surprised by this https://images.app.goo.gl/qriS9UCcdM7yxzhE8

Yes, Piccolo is surprised by a city-level crater just like he's surprised that Raditz tanked an attack that, according to you, wasn't even 8-C (couldn't even blow up a super-tiny cliff). Are you going to try and argue they are 8-C? Because apparently King Piccolo being able to city-bust and being dimensions weaker than even 23rd Budokai Goku (who you said to be small country level) doesn't matter anymore.

It's clear that he's surprised by the condensed damage the attack does, not its output.

> Piccolo seriously attacks Raditz oh his all and the effects of attack are this

Attacking on his all is irrelevant, as the ki is still being controlled. I once more bring up the example of the "full-power" Final Flash, which was stated to be capable of destroying the Earth, yet it was stated on the same scene that Vegeta controlled the beam's radius so it'd only affect Cell and nothing else.

 

[Kepekley23]

I know Ki Control serves as an explanation for pretty much everything in DBZ but there are some scenes where it doesn't make sense.

Like when Vegeta throws an energy blast down to Frieza. Piccolo asks him if he's trying to destroy the planet (suggesting the blast has planet-level AP) and Frieza looks startled for a second before kicking the blast away into space.

If every blast they threw at each other was planet level, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Piccolo to single out that blast specifically.

Trunks told Vegeta the exact same thing under the exact same context, yet Vegeta showed the ability to easily control the range of the attack.

Piccolo probably assumed the same thing; that Vegeta was so out of his mind that he didn't care about whether Namek would get blown away by that blast or not.

 

[Damage3245]

Technically speaking I think that Vegeta narrowing the beam width meant that it didn't strike the planet directly and exploded; it sorta just blew threw part of the Earth / the sea, and continued into space.

It clearly did affect the planet to an extent; it just wasn't a direct hit.

Here is chapter 190 for reference.

If he aimed the blast straight down at the ground, I think it probably would have blown up the planet.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

downgrade and later delete DBZ FRA

 

[Huesito88]

Yes!

 

[Kepekley23]

It actually still serves as an example of ki control, considering the context here is the same.

Even Toriyama says as much.

 

[Andytrenom]

Why is not being able to blow up a mountain an argument for a 6-A to 5-C downgrade exactly?

 

[Yellaninjaa]

> It looked like piccolo put in the same effort to blow up Raditz as e did with the moon. Yet even with Ki control shouldn't his attack destroyed the area or at least the cliff they were standing on ?

No, because Piccolo wanted to blow Raditz away, not the cliff.

WHAT ^^ Your saying Piccolo moon attack didn't destroy cliff cus he only wanted to destroy Raditz ? But Raditz isn't flying he's literally standing on the ground of the cliff.ƒñú

Going by your logic, Vegeta's Final Flash, which is uttermost maximum-effort attack, should have blown up the planet, even though it was explicitly stated that Vegeta narrowed the beam's attack range in order to only get Perfect Cell.

Again you're using cell Saga characters that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about of Saiyan Saga tiers getting a downgrade based on PIS piccolo feat. Vegeta controlling his final flash to stop Planet from getting destroyed in crossfire is not the same as piccolo standing on a cliff literally 20 feet away from his opponent and his blast couldn't destroy entire cliff or the area. Yet the blast later destroys the moon. Lol you guys gotta downgrade Saiyan Saga tiers seriously. Also Vegeta was in the air when he performed final flash, and leagues of power higher, and probably better Ki control than early Saiyan Saga piccolo at this time.

Also you can't exoect me to believe that Raditz was holding back his attacks so they wouldn't destroy the world or humans when he literally doesn't give a crap. He doesn't have ability to destroy world only Vegeta amped with Galick gun does.

Saiyan Saga Stats should be:

Goku

AP: High 6-A Speed/ MHS+ DP/ High 6-A

Piccolo

AP: High 6-A Speed/ MHS+ DP/ High 6-A

Raditz

AP: Low 5-C Speed/ MHS+ DP/ Low 5-C

Nappa

AP: 5-C Speed/ MHS+ DP/ 5-C

Vegeta

AP: Low 5-B (Possibly 5-B With Galick Gun) Speed/ MHS+ DP/ Low 5-B

Goku post king kai

AP: Low 5-B (Possibly 5-B with Kaio Ken amps) Speed/ MHS+ DP/ Low 5-B

 

[Damage3245]

@Yellaninjaa; even if I thought you had a point about them needing to be downgraded, you haven't offered any justification for your new ratings.

 

[Kepekley23]

So, no counter to what I said. Just going on about "Cell Saga isn't the Saiyan Saga" when you're the same guy using 23rd Budokai feats to try and disprove Saiyan Saga feats.

 

[The_Calaca]

This makes zero sense.

 

[MysticSaiyan103]

@Yella

lolwut

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the OP is nothing but sheer sourceless guess work and strange lowball. Piccolo's Moon busting feat was calculated at 5-B and Relativistic, and was done without removing training gear and with a regular Ki blast. It easily scales to all his stats. And he's wayyyyyyyyy stronger than he was in Dragon Ball saga, so the feat is legit. In fact, even Master Roshi's moon busting feat is 5-B and Relativistic. Was an outlier at the time, but due to Piccolo being so much stronger than the various 7-B to 6-B characters, and the fact that everyone after him are blatantly capable of casual planet busting feats; it no longer is. Also, Ki Control is the very definition of precision strikes; AoE =/= Attack Potency. Dragon Ball is like one of the most definitive example of this fact.

In Conclusion, no changes here need to be made.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Right let's all ignore piccolo failing to bust small ass mountain him and Raditz were standing on but glorify fact that he destroyed a moon with PIS feats that no one scales to, since everyone before that only blew up a Island or mountains. It's so PIS it's not even funny. Also why is Raditz in same tier as Nappa ? Both are Planet Level ? So what was Vegeta Galick gun ? Large planet level lol this flaws scaling is so messed up and overlooked cus everyone is ********** dbz

 

[Andytrenom]

Can you please avoid insulting people you disagree with. That's not going to accomplish anything

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Yeah, the OP is nothing but sheer sourceless guess work and strange lowball. Piccolo's Moon busting feat was calculated at 5-B and Relativistic, and was done without removing training gear and with a regular Ki blast. It easily scales to all his stats. And he's wayyyyyyyyy stronger than he was in Dragon Ball saga, so the feat is legit. In fact, even Master Roshi's moon busting feat is 5-B and Relativistic. Was an outlier at the time, but due to Piccolo being so much stronger than the various 7-B to 6-B characters, and the fact that everyone after him are blatantly capable of casual planet busting feats; it no longer is. Also, Ki Control is the very definition of precision strikes; AoE =/= Attack Potency. Dragon Ball is like one of the most definitive example of this fact.

In Conclusion, no changes here need to be made.

Piccolo n Goku didn't get much stronger after 23rd Budokai. Their power levels are in Four hundreds while king piccolo who is 260 Only destroyed cities n Roshi who Power Level was 180 n something blew up a Moon. PIS as hell. Twice as strong as Island Level Is not Moon Level unless moon in DBZ has crappy durability.

 

[Kepekley23]

So, you just debunked yourself by proving power-levels are non-linear.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

So, you just debunked yourself by proving power-levels are non-linear.

And you proved your biased. How is Raditz same tier as Nappa and Vegeta ? How are all 3 Planet Level on vsbattle yet only Vegeta who was amped with Galick Gun only be Planet Level.

I've said numerous facts DBZ has flawed scaling n I've stuck to my guns numerous of times saying piccolo n other Saiyan Saga tiers aren't planet level only Vegeta with Galick gunnn Goku for matching it. You keep bringing it Cell and Cell Saga Vegeta

 

[MysticSaiyan103]

So, you just debunked yourself by proving power-levels are non-linear.

And you proved your biased. How is Raditz same tier as Nappa and Vegeta ? How are all 3 Planet Level on vsbattle yet only Vegeta who was amped with Galick Gun only be Planet Level.

I've said numerous facts DBZ has flawed scaling

Nappa and Raditz should be Planet while Vegeta should be Large Planet imo

 

[Kepekley23]

Still waiting for you to bring up Goku and Piccolo's power levels and say "aha! They are only 70 times stronger than an average farmer with a power level of 5, so they're only 9-B"

At this point I'm wondering if I should just straight up close this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, Power levels are Bullshit as Kepekley said. And Direct quote from TFS

 

[The_Calaca]

You probably should. The arguments for the dowgrade don't hold.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, let's close this please.

 

[Yellaninjaa]

Still waiting for you to bring up Goku and Piccolo's power levels and say "aha! They are only 70 times stronger than an average farmer with a power level of 5, so they're only 9-B"

At this point I'm wondering if I should just straight up close this.

Raditz is considered planet level by you guys A Saibamen is equal to Raditz Vegeta can destroy a Saibamen with one finger n piccolo can one shot a Saibamen with a mouth blast Nappa can wreck this same piccolo Goku in base can wreck Nappa Vegeta in base can wreck Goku Goku needs Kaio Ken to keep up with Vegeta Vegeta says he will destroy earth with Galick gun Goku goes Kaio Ken Kamehameha to match Galick gun

In conclusion Goku n Vegeta should be ONLY people in Saiyan arc that are planet level but with their strongest attacks

You guys basically have Saibamen n Raditz at planet level or same level of Goku n Vegeta strongest attacks lol if kep is in charge of this flawed scaling he seriously needs help