[R2M4] Venefica's Tier 7 Tourney: Haruka vs Cinner

[Rayfire]

To make sure it doesn’t get buried (Again) The current vote tally is now 3-1 in haruka’s favor

 

[Javenplayz253]

To make sure it doesn’t get buried (Again) The current vote tally is now 3-1 in haruka’s favor

 

[Rayfire]

HARUKA FTW LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[MintyBoi1]

So what are the reasons for you guys voting Haruka?

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m leaning Cinner for his counters to Haruka’s abilities, overall skill/experience advantage, and too many useful abilities for her to effectively nullify her way to victory. It just seems he’s seen a lot of her kit and the stuff he hasn’t can be overcome eventually like the Shadow Nuke. Haruka would have to really stall him with portals and nullification before he gets into her zone and lands a flurry of blows. It also seems Haruka would try disabling Lifeline only for Cinner to last with other abilities or she tries shutting off the life force funneling specifically and only gets the durability lower which I think would just downscale Lifeline a bit below Cinner at worst since it’ll just be a normal weapon not hardened by his will.

Just gonna bump this up since I don’t think it’s been entirely disproved especially since now we know Haruka can’t tank the heat Cinner outputs forever. And I took a look at the Reactive Evolution page, nothing about it suggests you can just grow to someone above you’s skill level. It just shows developing new powers/resistances and statistics which isn’t that different from Cinner’s AD. Even Garou accomplishes what he does through adaptation and technique copying, not reactive evolution. It’s for stats.

I think you’re exaggerating how big the range advantage is when Cinner can counter it and her AP is not even 2x Cinner so it really barely matters especially with the effort she has to put in to get one good hit.

But she’s still scaling below people supposedly far below Cinner. It’s like if I can freeze people but then I get some RE and suddenly I can freeze the earth without proof. So basically One Piece fan logic.

I still have no reason to believe Haruka’s RE carries her that hard so for now I’m voting Cinner since he has better skill/experience/biq, better acrobatics, better counters to Haruka’s abilities like air pulling for her ranged attacks and willpower to completely resist her Void of Despair, and ESP/analytical prediction to see everything coming miles away and beat them out. She’s getting brain damage.

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

Ok, Haruka FRA

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

It feels too soon to drop 4 votes on haruka. There's not any concrete conclusion yet. I feel like this has happened before in a Rayfire match

I need to see the listed reasons why both Haruka and Cinner have votes.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I find Cinner's bigger strength in being able to constantly produce a heat 5x times hotter than the surface of the sun / or a heat of constantly shocking lighting, while Haruka only has non-specific minor fire resistance with Elemental Manipulation, which I see will only postpone her dying from the heat. Since Haruka is a melee fighter, she will be exposed to the 5x sun temperature surface non-stop, and I can't imagine her winning when Cinner uses his skill to last in battle combating her. Combined with Cinner's martial arts, acrobatics, levitation, sensory abilities, and Cinner resisting Hakura's top skill without damage, I find these enough to vote Cinner FRA.

Here are Froggy’s reasons and I’ve put mine. Also if Cinner ever gets the chance to ground Haruka by say hitting her with Lightning Breaker, he can do what I said earlier and crush her throat, leaving her deprived of oxygen and unable to cast a healing spell.

 

[Rayfire]

Here are Froggy’s reasons and I’ve put mine. Also if Cinner ever gets the chance to ground Haruka by say hitting her with Lightning Breaker, he can do what I said earlier and crush her throat, leaving her deprived of oxygen and unable to cast a healing spell.

Oxygen deprivation doesn’t leave her unable to use magic. That’s not how it works.

 

[Rayfire]

It feels too soon to drop 4 votes on haruka. There's not any concrete conclusion yet. I feel like this has happened before in a Rayfire match

I need to see the listed reasons why both Haruka and Cinner have votes.

Froggy jumped to conclusions and nobody said anything too, lol

 

[MintyBoi1]

Oxygen deprivation doesn’t leave her unable to use magic. That’s not how it works.

Generally you need to be able to think to cast a spell I’d assume. Being deprived of oxygen for 5 seconds can cause severe brain damage. Nevermind the pain from the experience.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Froggy jumped to conclusions and nobody said anything too, lol

I will say he probably jumped the gun on saying Haruka can’t deal with Cinner’s heat but his other points are valid. And I think the other voters have jumped the gun a bit just going off the reasons you put without considering Cinner’s advantages.

 

[Rayfire]

You’re also assuming that Haruka gets hit, whereas from the explanation of lightning breaker, Cinner has to move up and somersault, giving Haruka warning time. It’s not like it’ll instantly incap her either, that’s no guarantee considering cinners’ AP disadvantage too

 

[MintyBoi1]

You’re also assuming that Haruka gets hit, whereas from the explanation of lightning breaker, Cinner has to move up and somersault, giving Haruka warning time. It’s not like it’ll instantly incap her either, that’s no guarantee considering cinners’ AP disadvantage too

Because Cinner has multiple advantages that could lead to that like mobility and skill. Cinner just suddenly leaps into a spinning motion like in the video I linked, Haruka wouldn’t really be able to be warned on that without any extrasensory abilities. I’m not saying she’s instantly incapped, but at the end of the move, Cinner is behind her and gonna pin her down, not letting her teleport. We have to assume Haruka can survive even momentarily without a throat and then escape the ordeal and get an upper hand afterwards. And you act like Haruka is close to one shot territory when she’s not even double Cinner’s durability.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I kinda wish Javen or someone would come in and say why they lean Haruka and her advantages over Cinner and his

 

[Rayfire]

Which is exactly why I’m typing my reasoning right now, lol

 

[MintyBoi1]

I have a feeling I can tell what you’ll say

 

[MintyBoi1]

I took a look at the Reactive Evolution page, nothing about it suggests you can just grow to someone above you’s skill level. It just shows developing new powers/resistances and statistics which isn’t that different from Cinner’s AD. Even Garou accomplishes what he does through adaptation and technique copying, not reactive evolution. It’s for stats.

And I feel like you’re ignoring this.

 

[Rayfire]

I find Cinner's bigger strength in being able to constantly produce a heat 5x times hotter than the surface of the sun / or a heat of constantly shocking lighting, while Haruka only has non-specific minor fire resistance with Elemental Manipulation, which I see will only postpone her dying from the heat. Since Haruka is a melee fighter, she will be exposed to the 5x sun temperature surface non-stop, and I can't imagine her winning when Cinner uses his skill to last in battle combating her. Combined with Cinner's martial arts, acrobatics, levitation, sensory abilities, and Cinner resisting Hakura's top skill without damage, I find these enough to vote Cinner FRA.

Okay, I shall go for Haruka’s reasoning.

Counter To Heat Aura:

Haruka, first of all, has resisted the heat of lightning many, many times before. She tanked Shizu’s lightning magic, and simply shrugged it off. Considering that the heat of lightning is the same as cinners’ heat aura, AND the fact she has partial heat resistance on top of that too, She probs won’t even notice the heat aura to begin with. Doesn’t matter if it’s constant or not. She can, and has the feats shown to be able to tank it. It’s not like she’ll constantly be in it’s range either, considering she fights just as well up close or at a distance, and she’ll switch strategies appropriately depending on the situation.

Skill/Experience/Acrobatics

It’s pretty obvious that Cinner is going to have superior acrobatics and skill at the start, given he has shown more feats and experience. However, one thing he can’t do is adapt rapidly (He has accelerated development, the reasoning for which is becoming a skilled assassin ‘extremely quickly’ but that’s generally more of a thing that takes a couple days.) Like Haruka can. Cause she has a little thing called reactive evolution, which I feel minty has seriously, and I mean seriously overlooked here.

In Bakuhatsu, reactive evolution is useable by adventurers with a strong enough will (e.g Asuna) and allows them to improve their AP by roughly 3-4x (Due to XP system, they can’t improve their AP midfight infinitely) But the thing that stands out the most is the skill evolution in reactive evolution. (Which I mentioned to venefica before I believe.) Allow me to explain.

In Volume 1, Chapter 3, Asuna and Shizu fought Kedron, who was more experienced (Having killed hundreds of adventurers and been down in the dark forest for years) AND more skilled with magic (Able to control a massive amount of magic, mostly earth magic, over extreme distances) and Asuna and Shizu managed to adapt fairly quickly and get on his level, and this is the EXACT advantage Cinner has over Haruka, and Haruka is pretty comparable, if not superior to them both.

^ And this is exactly why I feel both minty and froggy overlook this. I brought it up a lot for very good reasons. Hopefully it’s more clear why it’s so important now, though.

Basically, for the reasons above, Haruka is going to have no problem adapting to cinners’ acrobatics and skill, putting them on equal footing pretty early in the fight. Minty seems to think it’s like garou’s RE? For some reason? Even though I’ve partly already explained this.

This also means that Haruka would now have a much easier time landing a hit on Cinner, and, combined with the fact she has Superhuman Precision as an ability, it’s not too far-fetched that Haruka is going to be able to land a hit, which I have already mentioned several times before.

Oh, and that reminds me.

Cinners’ Regeneration Drawbacks:

Haruka clearly has the edge in how much she can tank and heal here. She can regenerate limbs, organs, bones, whatever, all in a few seconds with healing magic. Meanwhile, Cinner, on the other hand, is stated by minty earlier in this thread to have much slower regeneration when it comes to internal organs, describing that it would take a “Few Days” to regenerate, which is only as far as his stamina goes in a form where he has to concentrate heavily, ironically.

This would be especially bad for Cinner once Haruka’s RE kicks in, as not only will she have a much bigger AP advantage, but she will also be able to completely keep up with, or possibly even surpass Cinner in acrobatics, skill, and speed. Combined with superhuman precision and decent prediction abilities of her own, Haruka is not going to have a problem landing hits and capitalising on what will be a weakened Cinner.

Haruka Destroying Cinners’ Lifeline:

Some of this is already explained above ^ Haruka can get an even bigger AP advantage in mere minutes, and possibly even out skill Cinner, etc.

All of this means that Haruka has the option of simply destroying lifeline. How would she know that Lifeline is cinners’ source of power? (It’s not really, but if it’s destroyed, then Cinner gets knocked out as described on his weaknesses page) Well, she can already tell what your worst fears are simply by looking at you, which is entirely intelligence-based. Hence, why she has her intelligence listed as ‘Genius’ so, even though it’s fairly common that adventurers use weapons in Bakuhatsu, even the slightest hint of this is going to let Haruka know that this is a huge weakness of Cinner, and she will start aiming for the lifeline with equalised skill and far greater AP.

Although, to be fair, Haruka will want to destroy his weapon as soon as possible anyway, regardless if he needs to stand or not.

Minty seems to think that because it’s made of metal, that Haruka can’t break it? For some reason? Even though she can already make a huge crater in hardened materials? Idk. But once a RE’d Haruka lands a hit on that lifeline (Reasoning for which given several times above ^), it’s basically game over.

Cinners’ Metal Crush + Lightning Breaker

Minty claims that both of these moves (Descriptions given in cinners’ profile) can ‘cause brain damage’ to Haruka. However once again, I feel he is overlooking some clear drawbacks with both of these moves… The both require a brief somersault, or similair

^ Due to the above, the mere fact that Haruka is also very good at predicting opponents’ future attacks (Explained later), and also given that she will adapt to cinners’ skill quickly (Explained above) I seriously doubt she is just going to… stand there and let herself get hit.

Even if it DID land, Cinner is at an AP disadvantage, and while it’s not very big at the start, it is a factor to consider when we discuss things like this. There’s also no guarantee it even causes brain damage, and Haruka just heals.

Magic is also usable without oxygen, and even if Haruka got, like, half her throat blown off or the insides of it completely destroyed, Haruka has supernatural willpower & immense pain tolerance for that, for which, she is comparable to Asuna, who had enough willpower to shrug off severe organ damage and blood loss, and would have, without that much willpower, ordinarily cause instant death. I think it’s safe to say that Haruka won’t have any issues recovering from any that if her rival is able to tank way worse, and forget it even happened mid-fight, no less.

Haruka’s Prediction capabilities

In Volume 1, Chapter 7, we see Shizu fight Haruka in the adventurers tournament. And, without spoiling too much, I think it should be pretty obvious that Haruka wasn’t really even going all out, and it’s made clear that she saw all of shizu’s moves ahead of time, through several statements that she didn’t seem surprised at all. Haruka was only allowing herself to be hit to trick an emotion-amped Shizu that she could win, so that Haruka could finish off a weakened Shizu later, although the match was stopped due to Shizu’s injuries.

^ Self-Explanatory. If Haruka is going all out here, her prediction abilities will be even greater than what’s she’s shown. Cinner has outright air sensing, sure, but it’s not like Haruka is also lacking in the prediction department, like minty seems to think here. It won’t be too long before Haruka simply adapts to that, or even just uses nullify on it, either.

Haruka’s Nullify Skill

Self explanatory. Regardless of whether or not you think nullify could, well, nullify the life force or the object bond or not, Haruka can still use this skill to her advantage. For example, she can disable extension, air sense, heat aura (if need be), and most of cinners’ other abilities. This only helps Haruka no matter which angle you look at it, meaning that winning is going to be easier for her, evenis super early in the fight and her RE has yet to kick in to it’s fullest.

So, with all that, I’m still finding myself voting for Haruka, and also because the people have spoken already…

 

[Rayfire]

Magic is also usable without oxygen, and even if Haruka got, like, half her throat blown off or the insides of it completely destroyed, Haruka has supernatural willpower & immense pain tolerance for that, for which, she is comparable to Asuna, who had enough willpower to shrug off severe organ damage and blood loss, and would have, without that much willpower, ordinarily cause instant death. I think it’s safe to say that Haruka won’t have any issues recovering from any that if her rival is able to tank way worse, and forget it even happened mid-fight, no less.

I should also add that since Asuna lost basically all of her blood, she was fighting like normal on practically no oxygen through force of will alone. If she can do that, Haruka can do the same scaling to Shizu, who’s pretty comparable to Asuna. So even if Haruka has her throat completely crushed, she’d basically just ignore like Asuna did.

 

[Rayfire]

So this is 4-1 In Haruka’s favor right now then given that people want to vote now.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

So this is 4-1 In Haruka’s favor right now then given that people want to vote now.

4-2, minty voted with froggy. 4-2 isn’t a viable score to end a match on, which is why this is continuing

 

[MintyBoi1]

So this is 4-1 In Haruka’s favor right now then given that people want to vote now.

4-2 actually so we’re not in grace and all of the Haruka votes besides yours are FRAs with no elaboration

 

[Rayfire]

4-2 actually so we’re not in grace and all of the Haruka votes besides yours are FRAs with no elaboration

^^^ ??? I literally gave my whole reasoning above, and javen, leo, and canine have decided that Haruka would win. They weren’t forced to vote for either, and they chose Haruka

 

[Rayfire]

4-2, minty voted with froggy. 4-2 isn’t a viable score to end a match on, which is why this is continuing

Well who’re you voting for? You haven’t voted yet

 

[MintyBoi1]

Okay, I shall go for Haruka’s reasoning.

Counter To Heat Aura:

Haruka, first of all, has resisted the heat of lightning many, many times before. She tanked Shizu’s lightning magic, and simply shrugged it off. Considering that the heat of lightning is the same as cinners’ heat aura, AND the fact she has partial heat resistance on top of that too, She probs won’t even notice the heat aura to begin with. Doesn’t matter if it’s constant or not. She can, and has the feats shown to be able to tank it. It’s not like she’ll constantly be in it’s range either, considering she fights just as well up close or at a distance, and she’ll switch strategies appropriately depending on the situation.

Skill/Experience/Acrobatics

It’s pretty obvious that Cinner is going to have superior acrobatics and skill at the start, given he has shown more feats and experience. However, one thing he can’t do is adapt rapidly (He has accelerated development, the reasoning for which is becoming a skilled assassin ‘extremely quickly’ but that’s generally more of a thing that takes a couple days.) Like Haruka can. Cause she has a little thing called reactive evolution, which I feel minty has seriously, and I mean seriously overlooked here.

In Bakuhatsu, reactive evolution is useable by adventurers with a strong enough will (e.g Asuna) and allows them to improve their AP by roughly 3-4x (Due to XP system, they can’t improve their AP midfight infinitely) But the thing that stands out the most is the skill evolution in reactive evolution. (Which I mentioned to venefica before I believe.) Allow me to explain.

In Volume 1, Chapter 3, Asuna and Shizu fought Kedron, who was more experienced (Having killed hundreds of adventurers and been down in the dark forest for years) AND more skilled with magic (Able to control a massive amount of magic, mostly earth magic, over extreme distances) and Asuna and Shizu managed to adapt fairly quickly and get on his level, and this is the EXACT advantage Cinner has over Haruka, and Haruka is pretty comparable, if not superior to them both.

^ And this is exactly why I feel both minty and froggy overlook this. I brought it up a lot for very good reasons. Hopefully it’s more clear why it’s so important now, though.

Basically, for the reasons above, Haruka is going to have no problem adapting to cinners’ acrobatics and skill, putting them on equal footing pretty early in the fight. Minty seems to think it’s like garou’s RE? For some reason? Even though I’ve partly already explained this.

This also means that Haruka would now have a much easier time landing a hit on Cinner, and, combined with the fact she has Superhuman Precision as an ability, it’s not too far-fetched that Haruka is going to be able to land a hit, which I have already mentioned several times before.

Oh, and that reminds me.

Cinners’ Regeneration Drawbacks:

Haruka clearly has the edge in how much she can tank and heal here. She can regenerate limbs, organs, bones, whatever, all in a few seconds with healing magic. Meanwhile, Cinner, on the other hand, is stated by minty earlier in this thread to have much slower regeneration when it comes to internal organs, describing that it would take a “Few Days” to regenerate, which is only as far as his stamina goes in a form where he has to concentrate heavily, ironically.

This would be especially bad for Cinner once Haruka’s RE kicks in, as not only will she have a much bigger AP advantage, but she will also be able to completely keep up with, or possibly even surpass Cinner in acrobatics, skill, and speed. Combined with superhuman precision and decent prediction abilities of her own, Haruka is not going to have a problem landing hits and capitalising on what will be a weakened Cinner.

Haruka Destroying Cinners’ Lifeline:

Some of this is already explained above ^ Haruka can get an even bigger AP advantage in mere minutes, and possibly even out skill Cinner, etc.

All of this means that Haruka has the option of simply destroying lifeline. How would she know that Lifeline is cinners’ source of power? (It’s not really, but if it’s destroyed, then Cinner gets knocked out as described on his weaknesses page) Well, she can already tell what your worst fears are simply by looking at you, which is entirely intelligence-based. Hence, why she has her intelligence listed as ‘Genius’ so, even though it’s fairly common that adventurers use weapons in Bakuhatsu, even the slightest hint of this is going to let Haruka know that this is a huge weakness of Cinner, and she will start aiming for the lifeline with equalised skill and far greater AP.

Although, to be fair, Haruka will want to destroy his weapon as soon as possible anyway, regardless if he needs to stand or not.

Minty seems to think that because it’s made of metal, that Haruka can’t break it? For some reason? Even though she can already make a huge crater in hardened materials? Idk. But once a RE’d Haruka lands a hit on that lifeline (Reasoning for which given several times above ^), it’s basically game over.

Cinners’ Metal Crush + Lightning Breaker

Minty claims that both of these moves (Descriptions given in cinners’ profile) can ‘cause brain damage’ to Haruka. However once again, I feel he is overlooking some clear drawbacks with both of these moves… The both require a brief somersault, or similair

^ Due to the above, the mere fact that Haruka is also very good at predicting opponents’ future attacks (Explained later), and also given that she will adapt to cinners’ skill quickly (Explained above) I seriously doubt she is just going to… stand there and let herself get hit.

Even if it DID land, Cinner is at an AP disadvantage, and while it’s not very big at the start, it is a factor to consider when we discuss things like this. There’s also no guarantee it even causes brain damage, and Haruka just heals.

Magic is also usable without oxygen, and even if Haruka got, like, half her throat blown off or the insides of it completely destroyed, Haruka has supernatural willpower & immense pain tolerance for that, for which, she is comparable to Asuna, who had enough willpower to shrug off severe organ damage and blood loss, and would have, without that much willpower, ordinarily cause instant death. I think it’s safe to say that Haruka won’t have any issues recovering from any that if her rival is able to tank way worse, and forget it even happened mid-fight, no less.

Haruka’s Prediction capabilities

In Volume 1, Chapter 7, we see Shizu fight Haruka in the adventurers tournament. And, without spoiling too much, I think it should be pretty obvious that Haruka wasn’t really even going all out, and it’s made clear that she saw all of shizu’s moves ahead of time, through several statements that she didn’t seem surprised at all. Haruka was only allowing herself to be hit to trick an emotion-amped Shizu that she could win, so that Haruka could finish off a weakened Shizu later, although the match was stopped due to Shizu’s injuries.

^ Self-Explanatory. If Haruka is going all out here, her prediction abilities will be even greater than what’s she’s shown. Cinner has outright air sensing, sure, but it’s not like Haruka is also lacking in the prediction department, like minty seems to think here. It won’t be too long before Haruka simply adapts to that, or even just uses nullify on it, either.

Haruka’s Nullify Skill

Self explanatory. Regardless of whether or not you think nullify could, well, nullify the life force or the object bond or not, Haruka can still use this skill to her advantage. For example, she can disable extension, air sense, heat aura (if need be), and most of cinners’ other abilities. This only helps Haruka no matter which angle you look at it, meaning that winning is going to be easier for her, evenis super early in the fight and her RE has yet to kick in to it’s fullest.

So, with all that, I’m still finding myself voting for Haruka, and also because the people have spoken already…

The heat aura was never a huge factor for Cinner besides defending him from darkness attacks so that’s whatever.

I think it’s fair to say Cinner’s development is also rapid given once again he grew in skill and power by leaps and bounds in a matter of 3 days. Not to mention he wasn’t just learning how to use a katana but also forcefields and aura emission which he had no prior knowledge of. Breaking that down to one day or a few hours makes it very impressive. He also took on people who could change their abilities on a whim and who had centuries of combat experience, growing from the experiences. And don’t blame me for assuming the ability works as described on the page when you barely elaborated on it until now. For that example you mention their magic skill growing which is different from overall combat skill, so I’m still a bit iffy on Haruka growing to Cinner’s level like that given he’s a melee oriented fighter while people in Bakuhatsu aren’t. You’ve been saying this whole time how Haruka would try to duck Cinner and not engage with her scythe for much of the fight. Also the guy likely hasn’t bested people with centuries of experience so there’s that. Cinner scales above Haruka who scales above Asuna so he should be able to plan around her like in most of his fights.

That’s not what I said. I said Cinner’s organ regen would take a few hours, not days. And for his stomach being cut open, he rested soon after. Here he’d be actively focused on fighting, so his regen would likely kick in on overtime to at least lower the time by a bit. And any bone damage would last an even shorter time, a few minutes at worst. Of course this is assuming Haruka gets that deep a cut with her scythe Cinner can predict and out range. I’m unsure how Haruka adapts to match his acrobatics fully when she can’t literally feel the air around her like him or rapidly change directions. Sure she has better regen, but I don’t think that’ll be enough to stop Cinner ever dealing good damage to her. He could make her brain touch her skull for an immediate knockout if he had to.

Cinner should also likely grow in AP under these conditions so there’s that. And I still don’t know what this hint Haruka gets is. This feels like intelligence wank, because what’s she gonna do, see he has a weapon and assume that’s the source of his power while he’s pulling out powers left and right? I just don’t get why she’d be so single minded as to hyperfixate on his weapon and ignore countering everything else he’s doing. It scales to Cinner, the metal thing was just to reinforce how tough it is. You don’t have to be condescending. And Cinner can potentially fight with it still if it gets broken in half for example. As long as it’s nothing irreversible with a little work.

You assume Haruka can perfectly dodge the guy you admit will be starting off with advantages over her every time he tries a new move she hasn’t seen. She wouldn’t need to be standing there, Cinner has hit moving targets before like you know bullets and people with analytical prediction. Shizu is already far below Haruka so using her as a measuring stick for her prediction skill seems wonky. Plus Cinner can kick off the air for added speed. Powered up moves like those over a prolonged exposure should lead to a concussion even with Haruka’s apparently infinite healing. I’m confused on how you cast a spell without air and while experiencing the pain of having your throat and potentially part of your spine crushed. Supernatural Willpower can only get you so far when dealing with vital parts of the body. The Asuna feat only mentions a hole in her chest which while deadly shouldn’t be the exact same thing as having those parts you need to function destroyed. She had to push through the pain too and described it as unlike anything she felt before meaning she didn’t just shrug it off. What organs were even damaged there? If Cinner has Haruka pinned and sees her recover which she’d have to do quickly to not risk death, he can always attack again. What’s Haruka do if he instead decides to destroy her skull?

It’s not that Haruka is lacking in prediction, it’s that her only shown feat of it is far less impressive than Cinner’s. Haruka predicted a far less skilled character while Cinner predicted the moves of an equal to him who also had his predictive skills. And she’s not gonna be able to nullify something she has no way of knowing about. I don’t see any information analysis and deducing someone’s fears shouldn’t mean you can tell how good their sight is. Plus 30 seconds only plus Cinner has mobility and skill advantage.

There’s benefits but they vary and don’t last long. Let’s say she lowers Lifeline’s durability, she’s still having to deal with Cinner’s full kit so she can still be hit by someone not that far behind her. Not like she can instantly shatter it. Heat aura doesn’t seem that important so she’d be wasting her time with that. She has no way of knowing about ESP. And losing the extension wouldn’t make Cinner incapable of fighting back, just make him have to get in more. He can also break the ground and fire it as projectiles if he’s lacking on his ranged option. If it hits, good on him, and if it misses that’s a second Haruka spent dodging that instead of focusing on Cinner which he’ll surely capitalize on.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I’m just not satisfied with “Reactive Evolution and Nullify GG” being the big winning factor here

 

[Rayfire]

I’m just not satisfied with “Reactive Evolution and Nullify GG” being the big winning factor here

I never said it was, but they ARE big factors. They’re advantages

 

[MintyBoi1]

^^^ ??? I literally gave my whole reasoning above, and javen, leo, and canine have decided that Haruka would win. They weren’t forced to vote for either, and they chose Haruka

My point is they could’ve just done that because they saw a vote, Leo has previously skimmed threads looking for FRAs.

Cinner can plan around Haruka’s kit and deal big damage in a relatively short time since the fighters start at a close range. There’s a chance he outsmarts Haruka with his starting advantages and just sticks by her, not letting her portal away with his acrobatics, sensing, and air pulling. Maybe he rushes in after her which is something that could really make her strategy hard to pull off since he has a natural agility advantage. I think he uses his skill and variety of abilities to outplay her and match her when she tries adapting to him for the win.

 

[Rayfire]

My point is they could’ve just done that because they saw a vote, Leo has previously skimmed threads looking for FRAs.

When? I haven’t seen that happen a lot

Cinner can plan around Haruka’s kit and deal big damage in a relatively short time since the fighters start at a close range. There’s a chance he outsmarts Haruka with his starting advantages and just sticks by her, not letting her portal away with his acrobatics, sensing, and air pulling. Maybe he rushes in after her which is something that could really make her strategy hard to pull off since he has a natural agility advantage. I think he uses his skill and variety of abilities to outplay her and match her when she tries adapting to him for the win.

I have to go in, like, 2 minutes, so I can’t reply, but there’s basically a lot wrong with this

 

[MintyBoi1]

When? I haven’t seen that happen a lot

I have to go in, like, 2 minutes, so I can’t reply, but there’s basically a lot wrong with this

The 7-B tournament

Alright then

 

[Javenplayz253]

The 7-B tournament

Alright then

Man If I came in on the fcoc scene a bit before maybe I would've swept the 7B tourney

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Man If I came in on the fcoc scene a bit before maybe I would've swept the 7B tourney

With what? Gergy is not normal lol

 

[Javenplayz253]

With what? Gergy is not normal lol

My normal ray has something to say about that!

 

[Rayfire]

Reasoning Part 2!!!

I think it’s fair to say Cinner’s development is also rapid given once again he grew in skill and power by leaps and bounds in a matter of 3 days. Not to mention he wasn’t just learning how to use a katana but also forcefields and aura emission which he had no prior knowledge of. Breaking that down to one day or a few hours makes it very impressive. He also took on people who could change their abilities on a whim and who had centuries of combat experience, growing from the experiences. And don’t blame me for assuming the ability works as described on the page when you barely elaborated on it until now. For that example you mention their magic skill growing which is different from overall combat skill, so I’m still a bit iffy on Haruka growing to Cinner’s level like that given he’s a melee oriented fighter while people in Bakuhatsu aren’t. You’ve been saying this whole time how Haruka would try to duck Cinner and not engage with her scythe for much of the fight. Also the guy likely hasn’t bested people with centuries of experience so there’s that. Cinner scales above Haruka who scales above Asuna so he should be able to plan around her like in most of his fights.

Who's saying it can be broken down to a few hours? He can't leap that much. He hasn't shown any adaptation like haruka. Even if we assume he CAN tone it down to a few hours, that's still a huge window for haruka to wear him down until he's physically incapable of moving through repeated organ damage. And what do you mean 'People in bakuhatsu aren't melee-oriented'? Haruka literally uses a scythe, Asuna is a god at hand-to-hand (Volume 1 Chapter 2), and Shizu and the latter have several melee skill feats with their staffs. Haruka prefers not to get in close, sure, but that doesn't mean they aren't used to it. They only get in close when they have to, but they are still very experienced in that regard, especially haruka. I didn't elaborate on reactive evolution much before, since i thought it should be pretty obvious haruka could adapt, particularly in skill after referencing chapters, but apparently it wasn't, but now you have the explanation for why she can adapt to cinners' skill & planning fairly quickly above ^

That’s not what I said. I said Cinner’s organ regen would take a few hours, not days. And for his stomach being cut open, he rested soon after. Here he’d be actively focused on fighting, so his regen would likely kick in on overtime to at least lower the time by a bit. And any bone damage would last an even shorter time, a few minutes at worst. Of course this is assuming Haruka gets that deep a cut with her scythe Cinner can predict and out range. I’m unsure how Haruka adapts to match his acrobatics fully when she can’t literally feel the air around her like him or rapidly change directions. Sure she has better regen, but I don’t think that’ll be enough to stop Cinner ever dealing good damage to her. He could make her brain touch her skull for an immediate knockout if he had to.

Cinner can't outrange, this is obvious when you peek at both their profiles, but cinner can predict. At least at the beginning, before haruka's RE kicks in and puts them on equal footing skill-wise. And what's saying that cinner can put his regen into some sort of overdrive? I never saw that anywhere. As for acrobatics, Other characters like asuna literally ricochet off of falling pieces of a cave (Vol 1 Chapter 3, after kedron is defeated) therefore changing directions rapidly, just like cinner, and Haruka outskills her. Haruka can't air sense, yes, but that doesn't mean she can't also predict attacks.

Funnily enough, haruka also shows rapid direction change herself, no scaling from other characters required (Avoiding Shizu's sight with her sheer movements, AKA when shizu says that she seems to just disapeear, despite them clearly having equal speed, although haruka was, again, holding back.) Which is another reason why i'm saying that even at the beginning of the fight, it's not like haruka is just going to be completely outmatched like you seem to think, even though i've explained a bajillion times why that isnt the case.

You assume Haruka can perfectly dodge the guy you admit will be starting off with advantages over her every time he tries a new move she hasn’t seen. She wouldn’t need to be standing there, Cinner has hit moving targets before like you know bullets and people with analytical prediction. Shizu is already far below Haruka so using her as a measuring stick for her prediction skill seems wonky. Plus Cinner can kick off the air for added speed. Powered up moves like those over a prolonged exposure should lead to a concussion even with Haruka’s apparently infinite healing. I’m confused on how you cast a spell without air and while experiencing the pain of having your throat and potentially part of your spine crushed. Supernatural Willpower can only get you so far when dealing with vital parts of the body. The Asuna feat only mentions a hole in her chest which while deadly shouldn’t be the exact same thing as having those parts you need to function destroyed. She had to push through the pain too and described it as unlike anything she felt before meaning she didn’t just shrug it off. What organs were even damaged there? If Cinner has Haruka pinned and sees her recover which she’d have to do quickly to not risk death, he can always attack again. What’s Haruka do if he instead decides to destroy her skull?

Cinner has an initial advantage, yes, but speed is equalised, and she won't get completely overwhelmed with insane skill in her own regard. I'm using shizu as an example, since she was being super unpredictable when she went all out against haruka, but still kept up with her pretty easily. (She was a little surprised when shizu used nullify, which she thought she didn't know, but that's about it. This means she could potentially be taken off guard by the air manipulation, but once again, a shadow portal or a nullify is all it takes, so that won't really matter.)

I mentioned immense pain tolerance there for a very, VERY good reason. Asuna was in noticeable pain at first, yes, but you're completely ignoring what i'm saying when i told you that she basically forgot it was even there when she pushed through it. It was immense pain tolerance, as in, while asuna was in pain at first, she was still more than capable of moving and fighting despite it. I'd get it if asuna was incapped, but she clearly wasn't. The hole thing is very vague, but it was obviously meant to be like, a huge, HUGE hole. I'd say like pretty much nearly everything minus the heart and a lung kind of damage. That's why it was described as immense blood loss.

That's assuming haruka even gets to that point, which she likely won't, especially since she will not allow cinner to fight on his home field once she knows what it is to take advantage of it (Close-range) once RE kicks in. If that happens, though, who's saying a quick shadow portal can't get her out of it? You're assuming she just does nothing again, which she clearly won't. :/ The AP Disadvantage, even at the very start, is going to make that even less likely too.

It’s not that Haruka is lacking in prediction, it’s that her only shown feat of it is far less impressive than Cinner’s. Haruka predicted a far less skilled character while Cinner predicted the moves of an equal to him who also had his predictive skills. And she’s not gonna be able to nullify something she has no way of knowing about. I don’t see any information analysis and deducing someone’s fears shouldn’t mean you can tell how good their sight is. Plus 30 seconds only plus Cinner has mobility and skill advantage.

30 seconds is a lot in a fight as quick as this, since they are both FTL with equalised speed. Haruka predicted someone less skilled, sure, but shizu was very unpredictable after breaking out of the void of despair, since she had become willing to do anything to win, which is why i'm bringing up the fact haruka still predicted her movements pretty comfortably. As i've already explained, the infortmation analysis is entirely intelligence based (Hence, why haruka is genius level) which is why i don't find it far-fetched that haruka could know what to nullify if cinner is hiding anything, since even the slightest hint will give it away to her. Plus, as soon as cinner shows something off, haruka will see it and know what it is, therefore something she can also now nullify.

There’s benefits but they vary and don’t last long. Let’s say she lowers Lifeline’s durability, she’s still having to deal with Cinner’s full kit so she can still be hit by someone not that far behind her. Not like she can instantly shatter it. Heat aura doesn’t seem that important so she’d be wasting her time with that. She has no way of knowing about ESP. And losing the extension wouldn’t make Cinner incapable of fighting back, just make him have to get in more. He can also break the ground and fire it as projectiles if he’s lacking on his ranged option. If it hits, good on him, and if it misses that’s a second Haruka spent dodging that instead of focusing on Cinner which he’ll surely capitalize on.

I put 'if need be' if for whatever reason you still thought the heat aura would work, lol

Like i said above ^ 30 seconds is a lot considering their equalised speeds (FTL) And RE and overall just way faster adaptation can help her deal with cinners' full kit. His abilities don't really matter if haruka can fight just as well far outside of his own range. The breaking the ground thing would at best be tens of meters according to his profile, so that's not really feasible when an adapted haruka, with prediction of her own and superhuman precision, can snipe him from way further distances than that. If she see's cinner dodging before she does any moves, then that'll be another thing haruka will know to adapt to (ESP isn't perfect or outright precognition either, and it's very vague. so, for example, she could suddenly switch strategies, bypassing cinners' prediction, etc.)

 

[Rayfire]

I think we should just let everyone else vote now, since me and minty are just going to go in circles. To make sure it doesn't get buried (Again lol) It's 4-2 in Haruka's favor. 1 more for haruka might be enough for grace

 

[Javenplayz253]

Reasoning Part 2!!!

Who's saying it can be broken down to a few hours? He can't leap that much. He hasn't shown any adaptation like haruka. Even if we assume he CAN tone it down to a few hours, that's still a huge window for haruka to wear him down until he's physically incapable of moving through repeated organ damage. And what do you mean 'People in bakuhatsu aren't melee-oriented'? Haruka literally uses a scythe, Asuna is a god at hand-to-hand (Volume 1 Chapter 2), and Shizu and the latter have several melee skill feats with their staffs. Haruka prefers not to get in close, sure, but that doesn't mean they aren't used to it. They only get in close when they have to, but they are still very experienced in that regard, especially haruka. I didn't elaborate on reactive evolution much before, since i thought it should be pretty obvious haruka could adapt, particularly in skill after referencing chapters, but apparently it wasn't, but now you have the explanation for why she can adapt to cinners' skill & planning fairly quickly above ^

Cinner can't outrange, this is obvious when you peek at both their profiles, but cinner can predict. At least at the beginning, before haruka's RE kicks in and puts them on equal footing skill-wise. And what's saying that cinner can put his regen into some sort of overdrive? I never saw that anywhere. As for acrobatics, Other characters like asuna literally ricochet off of falling pieces of a cave (Vol 1 Chapter 3, after kedron is defeated) therefore changing directions rapidly, just like cinner, and Haruka outskills her. Haruka can't air sense, yes, but that doesn't mean she can't also predict attacks.

Funnily enough, haruka also shows rapid direction change herself, no scaling from other characters required (Avoiding Shizu's sight with her sheer movements, AKA when shizu says that she seems to just disapeear, despite them clearly having equal speed, although haruka was, again, holding back.) Which is another reason why i'm saying that even at the beginning of the fight, it's not like haruka is just going to be completely outmatched like you seem to think, even though i've explained a bajillion times why that isnt the case.

Cinner has an initial advantage, yes, but speed is equalised, and she won't get completely overwhelmed with insane skill in her own regard. I'm using shizu as an example, since she was being super unpredictable when she went all out against haruka, but still kept up with her pretty easily. (She was a little surprised when shizu used nullify, which she thought she didn't know, but that's about it. This means she could potentially be taken off guard by the air manipulation, but once again, a shadow portal or a nullify is all it takes, so that won't really matter.)

I mentioned immense pain tolerance there for a very, VERY good reason. Asuna was in noticeable pain at first, yes, but you're completely ignoring what i'm saying when i told you that she basically forgot it was even there when she pushed through it. It was immense pain tolerance, as in, while asuna was in pain at first, she was still more than capable of moving and fighting despite it. I'd get it if asuna was incapped, but she clearly wasn't. The hole thing is very vague, but it was obviously meant to be like, a huge, HUGE hole. I'd say like pretty much nearly everything minus the heart and a lung kind of damage. That's why it was described as immense blood loss.

That's assuming haruka even gets to that point, which she likely won't, especially since she will not allow cinner to fight on his home field once she knows what it is to take advantage of it (Close-range) once RE kicks in. If that happens, though, who's saying a quick shadow portal can't get her out of it? You're assuming she just does nothing again, which she clearly won't. :/ The AP Disadvantage, even at the very start, is going to make that even less likely too.

30 seconds is a lot in a fight as quick as this, since they are both FTL with equalised speed. Haruka predicted someone less skilled, sure, but shizu was very unpredictable after breaking out of the void of despair, since she had become willing to do anything to win, which is why i'm bringing up the fact haruka still predicted her movements pretty comfortably. As i've already explained, the infortmation analysis is entirely intelligence based (Hence, why haruka is genius level) which is why i don't find it far-fetched that haruka could know what to nullify if cinner is hiding anything, since even the slightest hint will give it away to her. Plus, as soon as cinner shows something off, haruka will see it and know what it is, therefore something she can also now nullify.

I put 'if need be' if for whatever reason you still thought the heat aura would work, lol

Like i said above ^ 30 seconds is a lot considering their equalised speeds (FTL) And RE and overall just way faster adaptation can help her deal with cinners' full kit. His abilities don't really matter if haruka can fight just as well far outside of his own range. The breaking the ground thing would at best be tens of meters according to his profile, so that's not really feasible when an adapted haruka, with prediction of her own and superhuman precision, can snipe him from way further distances than that. If she see's cinner dodging before she does any moves, then that'll be another thing haruka will know to adapt to (ESP isn't perfect or outright precognition either, and it's very vague. so, for example, she could suddenly switch strategies, bypassing cinners' prediction, etc.)

Reasoning the electric Boogaloo is already out?

 

[Rayfire]

Reasoning the electric Boogaloo is already out?

Huh

 

[Javenplayz253]

Huh

It's a joke about how you said Reasoning part 2

 

[Rayfire]

It's a joke about how you said Reasoning part 2

Oh ye, right lol

Also hoping for an axlven W in the losers bracket (I can prolly help argue for axlven if ya want)