[R1M5] Laser Frogman & Dr. Hecate vs Hezi Piposh & Frisk [GRACE]

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

See the tourney hub for more cool stuff
​

Match Conditions
Speed will be equalized for all matches
Characters are only allowed specified optional equipment
Starting location is New York City
Starting distance is 10 meter

Character A	Character B	Key A	Key B	Votes
Laser Frogman	Dr. Hecate	Combat Stage 4	Golden Hecate Unit, Super Mega-Mega Mech	5
Hezi Piposh	Frisk	N/A	Immense Determination	0
Inconclusive				0

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I remember Frisk going up against these two in a prior match, It kinda died but last I recall it was a stalemate cause no one wanted to attack? Maybe Hezi changes stuff.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I remember Frisk going up against these two in a prior match, It kinda died but last I recall it was a stalemate cause no one wanted to attack? Maybe Hezi changes stuff.

The plan this time is to basically ignore that. I believe SBA puts them all into a battle-state of mind, which we just didn't know last time so they actually should be willing to fight each other even if everyone involved is a hero where they're from. The tactics used may change, but they will 100% be fighting. It's far too late to apply this to the other match though, so we'll make up for it here

 

[Froggytron]

I remember Frisk going up against these two in a prior match, It kinda died but last I recall it was a stalemate cause no one wanted to attack? Maybe Hezi changes stuff.

Yeah, but another change is this not being the base Stage 4 key, but the Combat Stage 4 key. Such an experienced warrior with dual Red Sabers and MoonAPtor is decently more likely to want to win the match despite the methods, and he has way more ways to scare without clear harm, tempting them to run away in a panic instead of Frisk trying to fight in a pacifist way.

Combat Stage 4 starts with releasing a very potent fear manip (of his mere aura and appearance) + drawing his Red Saber and releasing a gigantic DRAGON Saber into the sky (further largening until it easily outgrows continents, which it showed to bite), screaming additional pure terror into both Frisk and Hezi in the form of its purple-like soundwaves (given that it is a weapon to massacre very powerful criminals and make them cry like babies from the fear).

If that doesn't prove scary enough, there are additional techniques capable of amplifying all previous causing fear, but Combat Stage 4 Frogman wouldn't release them all in the very first moment of the fight starting.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They no have resistance to fear hax, so I think it mostly depends on how potent it is.

 

[Froggytron]

They no have resistance to fear hax, so I think it mostly depends on how potent it is.

I would say with the purest determination they could withstand the first wave and counterattack, but when Frogman:

-uses his shapeshifting smile to clearly express how he killed tens of thousands of criminals in the most agonizing ways
-The DRAGON Saber gets large enough to do an artificial solar eclipse, its Red Laser ambiance will hide the sun and fill the area with shadow and red light of terror (+ Red Laser cooperating with Sin Vision can further express how many the weapon killed and how)
-Dr Hecate (having killed many criminals as well herself / via the robots she made) could further assist in creeping them (Red Laser cooperating with Sin Vision can further express how many she / her creations killed and how)
-This technique gets activated later to directly amplify the fear DRAGON Saber causes, somewhat paralyzing but namely amplifying any escape tendencies:

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates its own consciousness in beings' cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.
• Sencing Dragon heads in any way multiplies 'Conceptual fear' effect, able to make even 'atoms tremble in fear'. Although the whole Dragon's body works as a blade, it's teeth function as especially stronger Red Saber blades.

Although their SAVE + LOAD combo (to revert running away, or dying, etc) with things Hezi can pull with 4th wall breaking/deep dimensional storage (while having prior knowledge due to SAVE + LOAD) is a serious force, will they be able to pull these things off when 5 individual Fear Manips are constantly scaring them to run away in terror? It will be super hard to return back when they recall against which they will be facing again

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Hecate could form some constructs from Golden Fire Lasers as well as activate her Golden Aura to assist, giving her a solar-like glow which should make her look divine during the artificial solar eclipse, it’s not a direct fear manip but could likely dissuade them further

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I should probably put into perspective HOW determined Frisk is;
Due to the fact that human SOULs persist after death, when Asriel (Chara's SOUL Absorbed) died and their SOUL shattered, Chara's SOUL was damaged, but wasn’t completely destroyed, leaving Chara in dormant state inside their corpse. When Frisk fell, Chara's fractured red SOUL mistook Frisk’s SOUL as their missing pieces and basically clumped onto it to create their amalgamated SOUL, which is just shy of two full human SOULS worth of power, and byproduct nearly two SOUL's worth of DT.

Which is pretty significant considering the fact:

• Humans are naturally very determined, much more than any monster, with Flowey, who's even less determined than the average human (Made of just a fraction of the DT of the 6 human SOULs, with an absurd amount left over), being considered the most determined person in the Underground.
• Post-DT Experiments IF Undyne, who despite already being naturally attuned to DT and as such having a VERY high tolerance to it, injected so much DT that she herself reached a melting point. And Undyne injected herself with even MORE determination post-PTT (Her cybernetics gave her more tolerance). But it's only after linking herself with the Determinator and absorbing the DT that leaked from it that she managed to gain more DT than an average human.
• Pre-DT Experiments Undyne, is at the bottom of the list, having the same amount of DT that regular Undyne has in-canon, which is a pretty ludicrous considering the fact that she can momentarily bring herself back to life through sheer willpower alone.

Frisk has also gone up against similar-ish hopeless odds and hasn't given up:

• Flowey killed Asgore right in front of them, overtook their SAVE FILE, their only insurance against dying and the thing that got them through the Underground in the first place, dropped them in a pitch black void, further emphasized the fact that they lost their SAVE FILE and started taunting them over the fact that it was THEIR fault that he could easily kill Asgore, become a demi-god and how, after absorbing their SOUL, was going to kill EVERYONE, of course not before telling them that he was going to tear them to bloody pieces over, over and over again. Frisk retorted by calling him an edgelord, dismissed him over the fact that everyone in the underground has at least tried to kill them once and legit challenged him to fight. They were obviously still really scared, but still.
• Similar circumstances can also be seen in the current timeline with Flowey, who after betraying them in the cruelest way possible, absorbed all their friends' SOULs to become Asriel, the Low 2-C and virtually omnipotent god currently trying to remake the world, and despite the fact that Frisk & Chara SOUL's was halved (Halving their DT), they haven't given up and are planning to confront him, with it being described that they'll "never give up no matter what." It should probably also be noted that Asriel, before they even got to the surface, heavily distorted reality to the point it became a greyscale mess.
• I was gonna write one for each figment but it's getting late so Imma just put the important ones Pawn of Possessiveness has a somewhat similar-ish fear aura to Frogman, that their mere presence made every single ACT option become Flee and Entity of Emptiness is the embodiment and manifestation of the feeling of emptiness that made Flowey kill EVERYONE in the Underground, with them having witnessed it not a few minutes before the fight.

There's also Chara to take into account, since even if Frisk gives up, Chara has to also give up for them to lose control over the timeline.
That's what happened in the previous timeline's fight against Asriel; Frisk wasn't fully assimilated by Asriel due to Chara resisting the absorption.

Hecate could form some constructs from Golden Fire Lasers as well as activate her Golden Aura to assist, giving her a solar-like glow which should make her look divine during the artificial solar eclipse, it’s not a direct fear manip but could likely dissuade them further

Frisk should react somewhat similarly to how they reacted to the Effigy of Ego.
They did immediately try to attack it, but that's more due to its resemblance to Asriel than anything else.
Frisk was otherwise pretty focused on dismantling its viewpoint down.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Frisk should react somewhat similarly to how they reacted to the Effigy of Ego.
They did immediately try to attack it, but that's more due to its resemblance to Asriel than anything else.
Frisk was otherwise pretty focused on dismantling its viewpoint down.

Frisk ain’t really known for fighting though, sure he has the DT, but what are his offensive options? Hes good at survival but im pretty sure the offense of Hecate and frogman combined vastly overwhelm anything frisk and his teammate can do, especially if they get serious and apply their intellect for combined moves utilizing the thousands upon thousands of possibilities of moves they can wield

The DRAGON saber is continental size and can tear 99.9..9% lifespan from opponents, most of their AP, and even their soul out of their bitten body by pulling Dragon Saber back in addition to the fear, which is also multiples in potency upon perceiving the blade. Hecate’s golden fire laser stuff also uses super powered vibrations and specialized energy in order deconstruct matter, even against stuff that resists it normally, and these are just their base starting moves. Her golden aura can do that to a lesser extent so when just appearing her can be deadly unless he has a healing factor that exceeds Low-High

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk, they kinda don't win fights by attacking, their SI does most of the work by de-escalating the situation or by demoralizing their opponent.
I believe Orange Mode's Invincibility should let Frisk hang around the two's far superior AP long enough to maybe make them reconsider and stuff?

This, of course, only works if SI is a viable against them.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Check would also allow Frisk to see Frogman & Hecate's mental states and learn how they can get those two to spare them.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Frisk, they kinda don't win fights by attacking, their SI does most of the work by de-escalating the situation or by demoralizing their opponent.
I believe Orange Mode's Invincibility should let Frisk hang around the two's far superior AP long enough to maybe make them reconsider and stuff?

This, of course, only works if SI is a viable against them.

Check would also allow Frisk to see Frogman & Hecate's mental states and learn how they can get those two to spare them.

Does spare and/or social influence actually count as a viable wincon? I haven’t seen it applied in a thread before, so I’m unsure but since it’s frisk main thing (and really their sole method of victory) I’ll assume it does. Hecate is good and has been persuaded to stop attacking in the past but since this is a fight frogman has a good arsenal of mind stuff froggy can elaborate on to try and prevent that and FU characters have been known to defeat and even kill good people in battle on the premise that their superiors will time rewind them back to life later, so I doubt frogman will be too at odds with using his hax for it (I mean he started with DRAGON saber, so). Frisks own save and load will also erase any progress they make at attempting to use social influencing

Invincibility depends on what all it actually protects against. It may wall AP but hax stuff is a whole different dimension from pure power and Hecate and frogman are loaded with the stuff. Asriel has a good arsenal too but frisk doesn’t get out of that situation by resisting what all he and the others in undertale do, it’s all based on the save and load. Orange mode probably has good feats but I have a very high doubt that it has feats of walling all of the hax frogman and Hecate have, and Hecate in particular has feats of harming enemies with hax defenses even with past mechs which her golden one easily trumps

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Does spare and/or social influence actually count as a viable wincon?

Yeah, sans beat Ryuunosuke by using his SI to talk Ryuunosuke down from fighting him, for example.

Hecate is good and has been persuaded to stop attacking in the past but since this is a fight frogman has a good arsenal of mind stuff froggy can elaborate on to try and prevent that and FU characters have been known to defeat and even kill good people in battle on the premise that their superiors will time rewind them back to life later, so I doubt frogman will be too at odds with using his hax for it (I mean he started with DRAGON saber, so).

I don't quite understand why Frogman would try to prevent Frisk from reaching a peaceful outcome.
Frisk's isn't trying to deceive Frogman and Hecate or whatever, they genuinely wouldn't want to fight.

I assume those good people still actively fought and attacked them, right?
I don't think it's quite the same as Frisk not even engaging them in combat, all the while trying to talk them down from it.

Invincibility depends on what all it actually protects against. It may wall AP but hax stuff is a whole different dimension from pure power and Hecate and frogman are loaded with the stuff. Asriel has a good arsenal too but frisk doesn’t get out of that situation by resisting what all he and the others in undertale do, it’s all based on the save and load. Orange mode probably has good feats but I have a very high doubt that it has feats of walling all of the hax frogman and Hecate have, and Hecate in particular has feats of harming enemies with hax defenses even with past mechs which her golden one easily trumps

It's purely against AP, ye. I think as long as the hax doesn't just spawn on-top of Frisk, they should usually be able to dodge it.
They're pretty skilled at dodging danmaku, and even if they get hit, they can sorta just retry again, afterall.

 

[Froggytron]

I should probably put into perspective HOW determined Frisk is;

• Similar circumstances can also be seen in the current timeline with Flowey, who after betraying them in the cruelest way possible, absorbed all their friends' SOULs to become Asriel, the Low 2-C and virtually omnipotent god currently trying to remake the world, and despite the fact that Frisk & Chara SOUL's was halved (Halving their DT), they haven't given up and are planning to confront him, with it being described that they'll "never give up no matter what." It should probably also be noted that Asriel, before they even got to the surface, heavily distorted reality to the point it became a greyscale mess.

That is fair

• I was gonna write one for each figment but it's getting late so Imma just put the important ones Pawn of Possessiveness has a somewhat similar-ish fear aura to Frogman, that their mere presence made every single ACT option become Flee and Entity of Emptiness is the embodiment and manifestation of the feeling of emptiness that made Flowey kill EVERYONE in the Underground, with them having witnessed it not a few minutes before the fight.

There's also Chara to take into account, since even if Frisk gives up, Chara has to also give up for them to lose control over the timeline.
That's what happened in the previous timeline's fight against Asriel; Frisk wasn't fully assimilated by Asriel due to Chara resisting the absorption.

But now amplify the aura of Pawn of Possessiveness by millions and you get what these 5x stacked fear manips of extreme terrors will cause. And just after the section with flee, it seems that Chara in Frisk attacks physically. If that happens, there is nothing preventing Frogman from nuking the entire arena with 5-C attacks causing extreme AoE of 4+ near insta-killing effects (given that he can revert Frisk back after the fight is over, given that he is a low Sin-Meter who just stood in his way, but doesn't deserve to perish).

Frisk should react somewhat similarly to how they reacted to the Effigy of Ego.
They did immediately try to attack it, but that's more due to its resemblance to Asriel than anything else.
Frisk was otherwise pretty focused on dismantling its viewpoint down.

But attacking, once more, could lead to the Frogman and Hecate unleashing their one-shot arsenal.

But if Frisk doesn't attack, there still are giant odds Hezi will. Just one of the first sentences of his profile 'He is a failed actor who thinks everyone is stupid and he is okay' doesn't seem convincing he would try to spare no matter what, and if he doesn't run away at the start, he might lead their team into destruction (which would be repeated by each time Frisk LOADS back).

I believe Orange Mode's Invincibility should let Frisk hang around the two's far superior AP long enough to maybe make them reconsider and stuff?

If, then just for tiny ammounts of time before the main weapon of Frogman is used to attack, as DRAGON Saber is just a larger Red Saber, which can do these:

• highly adaptive towering Durability Negation forming cuts with the slightest touch (harmed and set afire a Dragon Purple Skeleton mage casting on himself 'Space Prime Invulnerability' between solar systems, preventing any damage stacked with space around him currently present, which even Red Stickmen Assasin's durability negation weapons couldn't influence) + Deconstruction & Fire Manipulation ('Decay Burning')

Check would also allow Frisk to see Frogman & Hecate's mental states and learn how they can get those two to spare them.

I believe seeing the power of mind both of these have (one being 20 000+ years mind constantly evolving and undergoing space battlefield events Frisk could hardly imagine, the other being capable of 'injecting one sextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) possible future views directly into her brain and she has better mental processing than a thousand of the highest grade WPA supercomputers' while enduring many things as well) would backfire and scare Frisk even more, namely that these powerful minds are close to impossible to convince (like he does with most of the monsters).

 

[Froggytron]

I don't quite understand why Frogman would try to prevent Frisk from reaching a peaceful outcome.
Frisk's isn't trying to deceive Frogman and Hecate or whatever, they genuinely wouldn't want to fight.

I assume those good people still actively fought and attacked them, right?
I don't think it's quite the same as Frisk not even engaging them in combat, all the while trying to talk them down from it.

But Frisk is trying to rob him of the win + both Chara attacking and namely Hezi attacking could start Frogman's and Hecate's offensive on the entire team and battlefield, as Frogmen can rewind those with low Sin-Meter back later (he doesn't have to care if Frisk or additional people get insta-nuked without any suffering by the AoE)

It's purely against AP, ye. I think as long as the hax doesn't just spawn on-top of Frisk, they should usually be able to dodge it.
They're pretty skilled at dodging danmaku, and even if they get hit, they can sorta just retry again, afterall.

There are many such haxxes though (namely on Frogman's side, but likely on Hecate's as well). One is the already-explained 'highly adaptive towering Durability Negation' of DRAGON Saber very likely combating Orange Mode's Invulnerability/Invincibility, but there are many more methods I can explain in depth (barely allowing dodging and a few bypassing it completely based on not hard to fulfill factors), would the fight get to that point

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And just after the section with flee, it seems that Chara in Frisk attacks physically. If that happens, there is nothing preventing Frogman from nuking the entire arena with 5-C attacks causing extreme AoE of 4+ near insta-killing effects

But attacking, once more, could lead to the Frogman and Hecate unleashing their one-shot arsenal.

Yeah, it's highly probable that Frisk would at first attempt to attack the two, they did so to 3 of the 5 figments (Effigy of Ego, Pawn of Possessiveness, Entity of Emptiness).
They, however, never attempt it again after the figments no-sell the attack (And with Chara conciliating Frisk in Effigy's case).

Plus, you have to take into account that if Frisk dies, they can just retry the fight over again.
So I believe if Frogman does just nuke them the moment he gets attacked, Frisk would definitely not attempt to do so again in their next try.

But if Frisk doesn't attack, there still are giant odds Hezi will. Just one of the first sentences of his profile 'He is a failed actor who thinks everyone is stupid and he is okay' doesn't seem convincing he would try to spare no matter what, and if he doesn't run away at the start, he might lead their team into destruction (which would be repeated by each time Frisk LOADS back).

Yeah, honestly have no idea how Hezi will act here.
If I had to guess, considering the fact has no Supernatural Willpower or Fear Resistance, I just think he'd either attempt to flee or freeze.
If he does attempt to attack, I could maybe see Frisk trying to persuade him to not to do in their next LOADs, doubt it'll be too effective tho

If, then just for tiny ammounts of time before the main weapon of Frogman is used to attack, as DRAGON Saber is just a larger Red Saber, which can do these:

• highly adaptive towering Durability Negation forming cuts with the slightest touch (harmed and set afire a Dragon Purple Skeleton mage casting on himself 'Space Prime Invulnerability' between solar systems, preventing any damage stacked with space around him currently present, which even Red Stickmen Assasin's durability negation weapons couldn't influence) + Deconstruction & Fire Manipulation ('Decay Burning')

I guess that puts the Invincibility aspect of Orange Mode out of the picture. It does also give Frisk a dash, but that's about it. They also have a few small speed amps and can sometimes just survive attacks at 1HP through sheer willpower, but I dunno if that'll work here (It's how they survived Asriel's HYPER GONER).

I believe seeing the power of mind both of these have (one being 20 000+ years mind constantly evolving and undergoing space battlefield events Frisk could hardly imagine, the other being capable of 'injecting one sextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) possible future views directly into her brain and she has better mental processing than a thousand of the highest grade WPA supercomputers' while enduring many things as well) would backfire and scare Frisk even more, namely that these powerful minds are close to impossible to convince (like he does with most of the monsters).

It's less about seeing how strong their mind is, and more about getting basic information on their personality and sometimes their worldview and such.
As for being near impossible to convince, it wouldn't be the first time Frisk went against someone like that.
Undyne was so dead set on getting Frisk's SOUL to free monsterkind that even when she learns that she was effectively killed by Frisk before they reset to try to save her, she's so stubborn that she doesn't care if Frisk kills her again. And it took the pleas of almost the entire Underground to get Undyne to ditch the fight.
Frisk and Chara have also gone up against a literal manifestation of Asriel's Denial, and even convinced it to go against Asriel's wishes, so yeah.

It should also be noted that Frisk's LOADing doesn't completely erase the memories of what previously happened, it's somewhat akin to déjà vu; a feeling that something has happened before, but with no clear memory of it. And since Frogman seems to be familiar with time shenanigans, they might suspect that something is amiss, maybe even reconsider fighting Frisk and try to hear em out.

 

[Rayfire]

Watching

 

[Froggytron]

Plus, you have to take into account that if Frisk dies, they can just retry the fight over again.
So I believe if Frogman does just nuke them the moment he gets attacked, Frisk would definitely not attempt to do so again in their next try.

That is a valid point

Yeah, honestly have no idea how Hezi will act here.
If I had to guess, considering the fact has no Supernatural Willpower or Fear Resistance, I just think he'd either attempt to flee or freeze.
If he does attempt to attack, I could maybe see Frisk trying to persuade him to not to do in their next LOADs, doubt it'll be too effective tho

Namely, the problem is that Hezi won't have clear memories of him attacking backfiring, he will only feel a bit nostalgic. Considering his personality, it seems that debatable nostalgia and Frisk's words won't be enough to convince him to not attack each time. In some scenarios, the fear will make him flee or flee though, where he doesn't summon the nuking. From Hezi's arsenal, are there hax weapons capable of one-hitting Frogman or Hecate in the first Hezi's attack?

I guess that puts the Invincibility aspect of Orange Mode out of the picture. It does also give Frisk a dash, but that's about it. They also have a few small speed amps and can sometimes just survive attacks at 1HP through sheer willpower, but I dunno if that'll work here (It's how they survived Asriel's HYPER GONER).

That could help them quite a bit, but wonder if it will help against the negative effects. Likely with extreme heat and loudness (I imagine HYPER GONER had too), but the rapid aging and extreme radiation Red Laser attack possesses could bypass this and finish the 1HP off. Hecate's powerful attacks have 'Matter Manipulation, Regeneration Negation, Greater Vibration Manipulation, Limited Deconstruction and Power Nullification (Up to Low-High. Hecate's Golden Mech possesses 'Golden Fire Lasers'', some from this might finish the 1HP as well.

It's less about seeing how strong their mind is, and more about getting basic information on their personality and sometimes their worldview and such.
As for being near impossible to convince, it wouldn't be the first time Frisk went against someone like that.
Undyne was so dead set on getting Frisk's SOUL to free monsterkind that even when she learns that she was effectively killed by Frisk before they reset to try to save her, she's so stubborn that she doesn't care if Frisk kills her again. And it took the pleas of almost the entire Underground to get Undyne to ditch the fight.
Frisk and Chara have also gone up against a literal manifestation of Asriel's Denial, and even convinced it to go against Asriel's wishes, so yeah.

Valid points

It should also be noted that Frisk's LOADing doesn't completely erase the memories of what previously happened, it's somewhat akin to déjà vu; a feeling that something has happened before, but with no clear memory of it. And since Frogman seems to be familiar with time shenanigans, they might suspect that something is amiss, maybe even reconsider fighting Frisk and try to hear em out.

Considering both Combat Stage 4 Frogman and Dr. Hecate are easily Extraordinary Genius regularly, and both have access and possible access to Supergenius while truly brainstorming, I think with each another LOAD they have great odds of finding out, and finding out soon by Frisk expression to attacks he seen, just how Sans noticed in genocide run and could tell how many times they lost to him. Although having progress reset each time, at some LOAD Frogman with Hecate's assistance might achieve creating some memory medium (immune to LOAD thanks to powerful artificial Acausality, or placed outside of the timeline with a combo of powerful stage4 arsenal, which I can more in-depth explain if necessary) secretly from Frisk noticing. From the moment that is done, they stack knowledge + plans with each another LOAD and either build extremely solid arguments, or plans for machines to completely mute Frisk from trying to convince them.

Frogmen further show decent 'Social Influencing (greatened influence through such a compatible listening body)' in stage1, being way stronger in stage4, I assume that could help to not get convinced until an ultimate machine muting Frisk is done (and able of being easily made each time Frisk LOADs, given that Frogman can quickly build things from Red Laser when having plans)

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Couldn’t frogman and Hecate also just talk frisk down instead? I think this social influencing thing goes both ways, especially with frogman’s very high level of it and unlike those two frisk doesn’t want to fight so it should be easy, frogman and Hecate could win via SI instead

 

[MintyBoi1]

Couldn’t frogman and Hecate also just talk frisk down instead? I think this social influencing thing goes both ways, especially with frogman’s very high level of it and unlike those two frisk doesn’t want to fight so it should be easy, frogman and Hecate could win via SI instead

I can see that with Frogman naturally sparing good people and having thousands of years of experience

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

So hezi’s main offensive options are countered by frogman’s strong transmutation resistance, core properties and 3 second rewind and Frisk can be social influenced as well by frogman, who has 26,000 years experience and far enhanced SI from stage 1 (which has good SI already), and because frisk is the one who doesn’t want to fight more than anyone else I think frogman and Hecate can talk him down before he’d do it to them, plus they also have the memory plan froggy laid out above, so unless further arguments are made I will vote frogman and Hecate FRA

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't see these two using their SI before Frisk, that's sorta Frisk's entire fight tactic, afterall.
And I dunno if them actually going through with what Frisk wants would really count as a win for them?
Like obviously Frisk wouldn't want to fight, they would have been trying to stop the fight from the beginning lol
That result seems like an incon more than anything tbh

 

[MintyBoi1]

I don't see these two using their SI before Frisk, that's sorta Frisk's entire fight tactic, afterall. I dunno if them actually going through with what Frisk wants would really count as a win for them? Like obviously Frisk wouldn't want fight, they would have been trying to stop the fight from the beginning lol
Honestly seems more like an incon.

Frogman naturally starts with trying to spare good people. So it’s as much of a thing for him as for Frisk. Incon is problematic in a tournament since somebody has to move on. So in that case I’d likely lean Hecate and Frogman moving on for better combat abilities and matching SI.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Like obviously Frisk wouldn't want fight, they would have been trying to stop the fight from the beginning lol

This is why I have hard time understanding why frisk was submitted to this tourney, and even more so with a teammate who is nothing at all similar to him though I guess that part doesn’t really matter. I mean, frisk will never fight, so imo it’s kind of weird using him in a vs thread in any case, but I digress

That result seems like an incon more than anything tbh

Frogman naturally starts with trying to spare good people. So it’s as much of a thing for him as for Frisk. Incon is problematic in a tournament since somebody has to move on. So in that case I’d likely lean Hecate and Frogman moving on for better combat abilities and matching SI.

Yeah, in terms of pure offense im pretty sure frogman and Hecate just stomp but frisk has the SAVE and LOAD so they can hang in there anyway with determination, and as I said before frogman has a ton of experience and strong SI and as minty just said that’s his first move for good hearted people too (supposedly hezi’s premise complicates this at the start), but all in all it does lead to incon according to everything so I’ll change my vote for incon

As for advancement, I agree with Minty I think the SI matches up and frogman + Hecate should advance for those reasons

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Hecate and Frogman moving on is probably for the best, yeah The one who submitted the Frisk and Hezi team didn't even comment here lol

 

[Rayfire]

@Beeb_alt WHERE U AT DUDE

 

[MintyBoi1]

Incon FRA then

 

[Froggytron]

This is why I have hard time understanding why frisk was submitted to this tourney, and even more so with a teammate who is nothing at all similar to him though I guess that part doesn’t really matter. I mean, frisk will never fight, so imo it’s kind of weird using him in a vs thread in any case, but I digress


Yeah, in terms of pure offense im pretty sure frogman and Hecate just stomp but frisk has the SAVE and LOAD so they can hang in there anyway with determination, and as I said before frogman has a ton of experience and strong SI and as minty just said that’s his first move for good hearted people too (supposedly hezi’s premise complicates this at the start), but all in all it does lead to incon according to everything so I’ll change my vote for incon

As for advancement, I agree with Minty I think the SI matches up and frogman + Hecate should advance for those reasons

I don't see these two using their SI before Frisk, that's sorta Frisk's entire fight tactic, afterall.
And I dunno if them actually going through with what Frisk wants would really count as a win for them?
Like obviously Frisk wouldn't want to fight, they would have been trying to stop the fight from the beginning lol
That result seems like an incon more than anything tbh

But does it really mean Incon when Frogman with Hecate resists SI enough time before having a device to mute Frisk instantly? Wouldn't permanently (to the end of their clash) muting Frisk's SI in all ways essentially be their win, as they found a way to end it by silencing him? I'm really unsure how the outcomes are decided in such outcomes through

Also what I wanted to ask is whether Frisk's LOAD activates even when he would be KO'd (by many ways of their arsenal and sleep/mind blackout/etc machines Hecate with Frogman could develop given the time they have), given that it isn't his death doing it passively, and would the KOing be instant enough, Frisk wouldn't have time to LOAD willingly.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They're sorta ending the fight by convincing Frisk and Hezi to not fight, silencing Frisk would probably make that harder more than anything, if it even happens at all, considering the fact that it'll take some prep and needs them to consider Frisk talking to be a threat lol
But they basically already won anyway, soooo

 

[Froggytron]

They're sorta ending the fight by convincing Frisk and Hezi to not fight, silencing Frisk would probably make that harder more than anything, if it even happens at all, considering that it'll take some prep and needs them to consider Frisk talking to be a threat lol
But they basically already won anyway, soooo

But the result itself is Incon or Frogman + Hecate's win? If Frisk begs to not fight and Frogman + Hecate listen before making the device to silence/KO him, they might not fight, is that Incon then? Hezi is likely to be frozen/fleeing away from the fear manip they would try first to stop Frisk without physically harming him.

But when they would make Frisk asleep/black-out/pass out so quickly he wouldn't LOAD in time, and he wouldn't die (where the LOAD happens passively), before the fight would be stopped, would the LOAD still activate? That seems like a main factor about the shape of the result (with the 1 hour being KO'd like passed out meaning win by SBA), despite Frogman + Hecate advancing

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Knocking Frisk out shouldn't activate a LOAD, I'm pretty sure.
I just didn't consider it being a possibility with the ludicrous AP advantage Frogman + Hecate have and all their lethal hax.

 

[Froggytron]

Knocking Frisk out shouldn't activate a LOAD, I'm pretty sure.
I just didn't consider it being a possibility with the ludicrous AP advantage Frogman + Hecate have and all their lethal hax.

But that hax is namely serving to massacre evil universe criminals with ridiculous power. Being super OP doesn't mean using it in every move.


See this phrase from Sin Vision (a power guiding Frogmen):

• Reasonably immobilizing/KOing, or even killing low Sin-Meters [with solidarity available], while having means and true intention of bringing them back to life afterwards is tolerated. It tends to increase Sin Meter by unnoticeable amounts even to those skilled with it, which will reduce after. Yet it greatly rises automatically, would the user change their mind later despite being in good condition, and still having the means/influence to bring them back.

Given that Frisk doesn't have high sin-meter and resists fear with his determination, next logical step (besides working with Dr Hecate on a device silencing him) would be to immobilize or make him pass out, as he stands in the way for their win. Of course, Frogman would try to use the most gentle methods from his deep arsenal to do so, it wouldn't be instakill activating LOAD indenting to rewind Frisk later (which would be applied on Frisk or Hezi, would they attack, but Hezi is likely to not and Frisk in 2nd LOAD as well), both Frogmen and Dr.Hecate with their experience are capable to use their power extremely precisely, KOing Frisk (similarly how a slap to neck can KO) without kill alone shouldn't be hard for them, they have numerous methods to do so (as portrayed both in FU and VeneficaVerse stories). Frisk's powers could make that somehow more difficult, but then he wouldn't be using SI so much, odds seem to favor Frogmen + Hecate in this.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Think that should work, ye

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I’ll just change my vote back to Frogman Hecate FRA in this case

 

[Beeb_alt]

Yeah i see Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate winning this fight I vote for them

 

[MintyBoi1]

Frog and Hecate FRA

 

[Beeb_alt]

You should have picked a better match for Hezi And Frisk

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I believe it was RNG. A shame we didn't get Frisk and Clover to fight tho

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

You should have picked a better match for Hezi And Frisk

The matchups were random. This isn't my fault.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I believe it was RNG. A shame we didn't get Frisk and Clover to fight tho

Yeah, was just bad luck for them

Anyway I think this is grace in the other direction now, thankfully we reached a concrete conclusion