Questions about Vivec's True Godly regen

[Twellas]

I get why the members of the Tribunal would have the same abilities as the Daedra, since in "The Anticipations" it's stated that "The Daedra are powerful ancestral spirits similar in form and substance to the Tribunal", but my gripe is that from Sotha Sil's profile i can gather that one of if not THE main reason for the True Godly being there is scaling from Azura's Regenerationn feat after being, and i quote, "completely destroyed by Vivec after he had tapped into CHIM" in "The Trial of Vivec".

The problem is that in that text, the word "erasure" is never used, all we know is a very vague statement about Azura "exploding", outside of that, Vivec himself talks about "Banishing her from this starry heart" and at the very end we are told that " Vivec uses his own trial in order to BIND and BANISH the Prince of Dusk and Dawn".

My question is: Am i missing something? Is there proof of Azura being erased that i just missed? Do Vivec and Sotha scale to other true godly feats?

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Ultima and Matthew to comment here.

 

[Twellas]

Done, now we wait

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Azura exploding is very similar to what happens to Mehrunes Dagon when both Sotha Sil and the Battlespire Apprentice used powerful Thought-Rune / Nymic Spells to banish him, i.e exploding. This happens because the process through which such spells are performed enforces the timeless, eternal and immortal Daedra Lord to experience mortality first-hand, and the existencial horror that this brings destroys them. Truly kills them, as they become mortal in that time. But just like what happens to Dagon, Azura reformed, because Elder Scrolls Gods are ridiculously immortal.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Twellas]

Ok, but how and why does that classify as true godly? Especially when we are told in "The Truth in Sequence" that there were was a "ruin" of Mehrunes after the Chrononymic death-word, which means that it wasn't complete physical destruction? It seems like there isn't really a solid feat of a character being undoubtedly destroyed on every level imaginable and then coming back.

When was the Clockwork City stated to be a recreation of all of Mundus? Because all I can recall is "On the Clockwork City" saying that it is a "recreation of Nirn itself", and Sotha Sil saying that its goal is "the redemption of Tamriel", in what text\dialogue is it stated that it actually replicates all of Mundus?

Doesn't Sotha's dialogue in TES completely debunk him having any type of acasuality? He says "The truth is that my actions [...] are inevitable. Locked in time. Determined by chains of action and consequence", he then elaborates on this in his explaination of the "prisoner" concept: "I stand here, [...] not because i wish to, but because i have to. A result of action and consequence", when asked why he shouldn't be considered a "prisoner" he says that "The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls-the chains of causality that bind them to their curse. [...] But i fall short of the second insight. The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that whichh exists beyond causality.' '[...] only then can they escape. I see only unsteady walls". To me this seems like the textbook definition of a debunk, but am I missing something here too?

Why exactly do Sotha and Vivec get conceptual manipulation from scaling above the Ideal Masters? Why would scaling above them grant them the same ability the Ideal Masters have?

Sorry if it's a lot, but these questions were consuming me. Don't worry, take all the time you want to answer, and you can just ignore them if you wish

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1. I don't see how a poetic religious text describing that Sotha Sil brought "a ruin" of Mehrunes Dagon refutes that he was completely destroyed. Rather, the fact that he was completely destroyed across all of time simultaneously

2. It is mentioned a few times. Though it being a creation of Nirn and Mundus aren't mutually exclusive, and it being the redemption of Tamriel makes sense as it is Sotha SIl's mean of saving the souls of mortals.

3. Sotha Sil is talking about how all of creation is the Dream of a sleeping Godhead in this dialogue, and ergo everyone is "trapped and locked in time" as no one truly posesses free well, and instead are merely aspects of the sleeping Dreamer's psyche, following their own predetermined roads. Think of it like the relationship between a Writer and their Writing. You can write a story with a character that is unbound by Time and Causality, but in truth he is neither and posesses no true freedom at all, as they are only a character within a story, and thus fully determined by the will of their Writer.

4. There's other stuff from Daedra Lords, Demiprinces, Ehlnofey and more that indicate that deities influence things on a conceptual level, as gods often are literal embodied ideas, beliefs, concepts, etc. And often create them as well.

 

[Hykuu]

1. If you have true godly you would have to be erased BEYOND all time and space, this is basically a self refutation, Idk anything about ES but this is just a flaw in logic, if he wasn't erased across all of time (the erasure was still bound to time) then it isn't even true godly

 

[Twellas]

1. But it wasn't a poetic reference to what Sotha did, the text says " Mehrunes's ruin slithered between the cracks of Nirn and Oblivion, shrieking curses like a petulant child", so not only is the "ruin" of Mehrunes physical, it's so physical that he can even speak. Also the word used for Mehrunes' destruction is, again, "exploded", no talk of complete destruction of erasure

2. i mean, if one states that it is a recreation of STRICTLY Nirn then yes, i think it is exclusive of Mundus as a whole, can you recall where and when it's mentioned? Even just the game and medium in which it's stated would be enough

3. I see, I had suspected as much. Do you think this is a sort of foreshadowing of a sort of early understanding (but not achieving) of CHIM on his part?

4. Ok, then i guess the justification should be changed if that's the case


Honestly i feel like the TES profiles need more links and solid proof in them. I know the Lore and Cosmology pages are a thing, but as of now there are many extremely powerful abilities (to the point of making the characters practically unusable in battles) and feats that have no actual hard hitting (talking screenshots and links to official sites mainly) proof

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Honestly i feel like the TES profiles need more links and solid proof in them. I know the Lore and Cosmology pages are a thing, but as of now there are many extremely powerful abilities (to the point of making the characters practically unusable in battles) and feats that have no actual hard hitting (talking screenshots and links to official sites mainly) proof

There are a lot of profiles that are empty or need cleaning some still need addition of some powers and resistances, like TLD i dont think he has madness resistance even after he went to the realm of mora and he does not have void resistance either, many profiles need an update and cleaning.

 

[Twellas]

I know, but the TES characters have some seriously busted abilities that make them unusable in fights with no proof being shown. I am not saying that Matt or whoever put them there made them up, just that we need some hard hitting, solid proof for such abilities. Like type 5 acausality, that stuff makes 3\4 of the verse literally untouchable and there is no scan on the profiles to back it up

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yes it would help to have the evidence there on the profiles but it also needs to be explained as the TES verse is mostly phylosophycal

 

[Twellas]

not necessarily, and even then it's better to have solid proof AND an explaination of that piece of proof rather than JUST an explaination

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

personally i would love it and also i would like too get the profiles cleaned and to have the powers and resistances of characters added but even i know that is a lot and i dont know if matt and ultima have the time to do all of that, but it would be great if it happened.

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Twellas]

What is left to do here?

possibly answer my second round of questions, because the main point of us not having proof of complete physical destruction still stands as of now

 

[Twellas]

also addressing the point about having more sources in the TES character profiles

 

[Ogbunabali]

Sources for what?

 

[Twellas]

abilities and feats. I am talking about screenshots, like for the Numidium, where there is a screenshot that proves how Sotha Sil sees it as the main existential threat, or one that proves that the Crystal Tower is metaphysically anchored to all realms. Meanwhile in Sotha's profile we are told that the Clockwork city is a recreation of Mundus without anything backing it up.

Again, i am not saying nor implying that whoever made the profiles made those things up, i'm only saying that it's weird to say the least to have such in-detail profiles with not a single link of proof

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll try to answer when I have more time.

 

[Twellas]

take your time, don't worry

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In regards to Mehrunes' ruin: Daedra aren't physical entities to begin with, so Dagon's slipping "ruin" shrieking in pain is by no means evidence that he wasn't even physically destroyed. Rather, that was most likely his Soul (Souls are really weird in TES, however, since their fundamental aspect is 1-A).

 

[Twellas]

but isn't it automatically lower than true-godly if there is ANYTHING left for you to regenerate from? Mid Godly already requires to regenerate from destruction on every level

 

[Twellas]

Does anybody know why Ultima isn't joining in? It would make Matthew's job a lot easier

 

[Antvasima]

He is rather busy preparing for revising our tiering system in a proper manner.

 

[Twellas]

i see

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

TBH I still think giving every Elder scrolls god true godly based on what is probably an outlier is dumb

 

[Twellas]

TBH I still think giving every Elder scrolls god true godly based on what is probably an outlier is dumb </div>

The main problem here is that there is no proof of it being anything above low-godly. In mehrunes' case we are literally told that there was something left of him to regenerate from, which already prevents this feat from being anything above low godly, in Azura's case it's all just super vague, with the words "bind" and "banish" being used and only 2 words dedicated to what happened to Azura, neither of which support the idea of complete erasure

 

[Twellas]

And also there's the problem of "why do these characters get an ability by being equal\superior to someone who has said ability?" for the Tribunal it's ok, because we have a statement about the Daedra being "similar in form and substance to the Tribunal", But why do, for instance, The Divines get the Daedra's regen by being superior?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean

I'm fine with elder scrolls god beings Mid Godly

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not just "Low-Godly", people need to understand that souls aren't comparable in every fictional universe.

 

[Wokistan]

Even with a theoretical 1-A soul it'd still be low godly by the definition, just one that almost nobody can actually bypass. There's low godlies that can survive soul destruction, low godlies with no souls, it isn't so much an issue with the soul type itself as it is with the definition establishing that mid-godly necessitates that nothing prevails and yet regen still happens.

 

[Hykuu]

you'd have to elaborate why in this case it would be different, otherwise we would presuppose it stays the same, smh

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

If that is the case it should be downgraded.

 

[Wokistan]

It wouldn't even really be a downgrade if they're bound to 1-A aspects and able to regen from those forms, it's just a change in classification. I guess it's a downgrade in the sense that the 1-A forms themselves aren't regenning.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with a downgrade because I feel there is a lot of misinterpretation going on here, particularly in Azura's case where she is undeniably truly destroyed.

 

[Twellas]

I mean, there's literally nothing in "Vivec's trial" that suggests complete destruction, and on top of that in another instance of somethhing similar happening we have undeniable proof of it not being complete destruction. And again, even if we downgrade it, we still need a reason to give the daedra's regen to stronger beings just because they are stronger, it doesn't really make sense for anyone outside of The Tribunal

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree, I think the full context of the scene and what Vivec did definitely implies complete destruction. Sotha Sil's feat where he destroys Mehrunes Dagon across all of time is a supporting feat, and your interpretation that it wasn't even physical doesn't give me good confidence to trust your judgment.

And yes, considering subgradience, it makes sense.

 

[Hykuu]

Instead of poisoning the well, can you please post a justification for what you are stating, Matt? Thanks, let's not try derailing this into "ur ignorant lol"

 

[Twellas]

If we really talk about full context, Vivec himself never even expresses the intention to erase Azura, he straight up says that he's going to "banish" her and even the narrator only talks about "binding and banishing", saying that there's proof of it being complete erasure is just not right, especially when terms like binding\banishing and erasing are completely different in meaning and can't coexist, after all, if you erase someone from existence on every level, what's left for you to banish?