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Questions about Vivec's True Godly regen

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Self Love said:
And you don't seem to understand basic TES cosmology
Nirn is a planet with it's own timeline, while Mundus is the space that surrounds said planet; aka the stars you see in the sky.

Sotha Sil was obsessed with perfection, and since he perceived the Mundus to be flawed, he created his own version outside space & time and within interdimensional space. We know it's not just a recreation of Nirn because the actual realm is filled to the brim with stars, nebulae and galaxies, alongside WoG directly stating his creation is a replication of the entire Mundus. You're completely ignoring context and only taking statements that fit your viewpoint.
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Exept Mundus also contains the various planets, not only stars, so it being filled to the brim with stars and nebulae means nothing if you don't have proof of the Planets being there, if anything it's you who's putting a single instance of WOG over what we are told more than once in-game by reliable sources. I'm not trying to get Sotha downgraded, after all, his rating doesn't really come from the CC, what I'm saying is that it's misleading to say that "The Clockwork City recreates all of Mundus" in the profile when it's not what we are told in-game and the only proof we have is one instance of WOG, it would be far better to have something like "The Clockwork City is a recreation of Nirn which contains stars, nebulae and is said to be an incredibly layered and complex parallel universe, it COULD even be a recreation of Mundus as a whole" instead, after all Sotha's rating comes from scaling to Vivec, Mehrunes and the Daedra in general, this change wouldn't effect his rating.

What Sotha used was said to be a ChronoNYMIC death word, also it was Matt who first said that "Azura exploding is very similar to what happens to Mehrunes Dagon when both Sotha Sil and the Battlespire Apprentice used powerful Thought-Rune / Nymic Spells to banish him", which is why I'm confident in comparing the 2 instances.

My problem isn't with why the Et'Ada and the Tribunal scale to that feat, I'm ok with that, my gripe is that Azura's feat is vague to say the absolute least, we have nothing that even implies complete destruction in the text and the words used actively go against such a notion, because if you completely and utterly erase someone from existence, what would you "Banish"? And if indeed there is something left to banish, it means that it's not complete destruction. I get that the Nymic messes with the very fabric of a being, but Vivec's intention wasn't to erase Azura, it was to "Bind and Banish" her, it's made very clear throughout the text, he used the Nymic to completely sujocate Azura. At the end we even have a line that says "After this event, the regular gateways to Moonshadow, the realm of Azura, is inaccessible. Whether this has to do with the unlawful incidents at Hogithum Hall in the Capital City OR MERE WHIM OF AZURA HERSELF, no one can say", which is basically proof of Azura being banished, along with the statement from the Female Form, who was bound within Azura's star, saying "It is your turn, Azura".

Oh, also, i just noticed that on Vivec's profile there's a scan linked as proof of him "existing both outside and beyond time", but in that specific scan itself we are only told that Vivec exists outside of time, not beyond. Not saying that Vivec doesn't exist beyond time, jus that the scan shown on the profile doesn't do its job
 
What exactly is the problem with the Clockwork City replicating Mundus coming from WoG? (as far as this term applies to TES anyways). Lawrence Schick's whole job is to read (and write) through the in-game books and ensure the lore remains as consistent as possible, he is called TES' official "Loremaster" for a very good reason, it's not like he doesn't know what he is talking about, and like the guy above said, the Clockwork City being a replication of Nirn alone doesn't make sense even going by what the game itself shows us, going by the fact it has its own space and is filled to the brim with planets, stars and nebulae, while Nirn is a strictly material realm with defined boundaries.

At this point you are just taking minute details and descriptions from the texts and acting like they can't mean anything else. Azura and Mehrunes had their forms dispersed as their Nymics were meddled with, and their influence over the place they were in was severed, thus they were banished, you are implying that they just got BFR'ed back to Oblivion, which is demonstrably not what happened.

Sotha Sil's "Chrononymic Death-Word" also has no indication of having been used to interfere with Dagon's Nymic, as in both instances where a Prince's true names were used against them, the person opposing them had to invoke them out loud. This isn't what happened when Seht destroyed Dagon.

Read what I said in the second paragraph.
 
Ok, i get it, I don't like it nor think it' all that honest, but i get it and agree. We should at least put a link to the Podcast, the nebuale and the statement from Schick in Sotha's profile as proof.

At first I'm told that " Azura exploding is very similar to what happens to Mehrunes Dagon when both Sotha Sil and the Battlespire Apprentice used powerful Thought-Rune / Nymic Spells to banish him" and that " Sotha Sil's feat where he destroys Mehrunes Dagon across all of time is a supporting feat" and now I'm told that they are 2 completely different things, so what proof is there of Azura being erased exactly? Nothing in the text even suggests erasure and we have a statement about Azura operating in her realm right after the supposed erasure happened

Can you actually demonstrate that they aren't getting BFR'd to Oblivion? Because in Battlespire it's clearly said that the neonymic and protonymic are used to "Banish Mehrunes Dagon to the Wells of Oblivion", which sounds like a textbook definition of a BFR, and even then, how does "Azura and Mehrunes had their forms dispersed as their Nymics were meddled with, and their influence over the place they were in was severed" even classify as a true-godly regen?

Also, in Sotha's profile it's said that Sotha "Completely erased Mehrunes Dagon", which is simply not true because of the "ruin" statement. No matter how small, abstract that ruin was, it was still there and as such Mehrunes wasn't "completely erased".
 
Basically there's absolutely 0 proof that Vivec used the Nymics with the goal of erasing Azura, since we are told by both him and the narrator that what he did was banishing her. Now we need proof of banishing being a complete erasure and coming back from it being a true-godly feat, or else there won't be any feat above low-godly and there should be a downgrade.
 
Lol i would like to note that the wog statements are sorta supported in game.

You see when nocturnal absorbed the skeleton key, she was planning to destroy all of clockwork city and clockwork city only to become "infinite"

Once shes defeated there's a statement that basically said you saved all of creation basically.

So this could imply clockwork city is in fact a parralel aurbis.
 
This would also make sense with the "infinite wheels within wheels" and "layers only sotha sil knows" statement.
 
Ultima Reality said:
What exactly is the problem with the Clockwork City replicating Mundus coming from WoG? (as far as this term applies to TES anyways). Lawrence Schick's whole job is to read (and write) through the in-game books and ensure the lore remains as consistent as possible, he is called TES' official "Loremaster" for a very good reason, it's not like he doesn't know what he is talking about, and like the guy above said, the Clockwork City being a replication of Nirn alone doesn't make sense even going by what the game itself shows us, going by the fact it has its own space and is filled to the brim with planets, stars and nebulae, while Nirn is a strictly material realm with defined boundaries.
At this point you are just taking minute details and descriptions from the texts and acting like they can't mean anything else. Azura and Mehrunes had their forms dispersed as their Nymics were meddled with, and their influence over the place they were in was severed, thus they were banished, you are implying that they just got BFR'ed back to Oblivion, which is demonstrably not what happened.

Sotha Sil's "Chrononymic Death-Word" also has no indication of having been used to interfere with Dagon's Nymic, as in both instances where a Prince's true names were used against them, the person opposing them had to invoke them out loud. This isn't what happened when Seht destroyed Dagon.

Read what I said in the second paragraph.
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Also you're wrong when it comes to the banishing part.

Even when they get erased/designgrated while it still functions of them getting obliterated its been noted multiple times the daedra regardless reform in oblivion.
 
My understanding of Banishing is that a Deadra's physical body, as in his manifestation on Mundus, is completely (?) destroyed and the Animus goes back to Oblivion, which makes coming back from a banishment a low-godly feat. I personally think that a "downgrade" to low-godly is the best course of action, since there is a ridiculous amount of proof backing that up, unlike the supposed True-godly. I put downgrade between brackets because it would be a literally insormountable low-godly due to the nature of souls in TES and the mechanincs of the regen.
 
Vivec never turned Azura to ash, he banished her, and it's stated multiple times by both Vivec and the narrator of the story
 
" Vivec: "YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART" "

"Vivec uses his own trial in order to bind and banish the Prince of Dusk and Daw"

Also

"After this event, the regular gateways to Moonshadow, the realm of Azura, is inaccessible. Whether this has to do with the unlawful incidents at Hogithum Hall in the Capital City or MERE WHIM OF AZURA herself, no one can say.", the narrator states that right after what happened the gateway to Azura's realm was closed, possibly according to Azura's whim, which means that right after what happened she was still alive and capable of effecting her realm, which either means that the existence erasure lasted for a ridiculously small amount of time, or Azura was simply banished and her Animus was cast back into Oblivion
 
Ok so I will read the trial of vivec and find out if the implications of what happened to azura dying are true
 
Vivec: "With my Charges I put you down. By this Shadow, I call your neonymic forth, your chosen throne, sundown and sunrise, death and birth of shadow. You are bound to this place."

Azura: "WHAT NO DEVIL PLEASE NO NO NO"

Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat y


^whats this
 
Azura: "CHIM? HOW?"

Vivec assembles a spear from the bones of his armor.

Vivec: "Here, this is Muatra. Guess what it represents."

Vivec stuffs Muatra into Azura's mouth. Azura chokes!

Vivec: "YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART"

Azura explodes.


Ooof ok then yeah matt and ultima are right they can keep their true godly
 
Ok now seriously, let's take a step back because if we don't we are never gonna see the end of this.

Can we see proof of either

1- the act of banishing constituting a complete erasure

2- Azura's case actually being complete erasure

Because i really don't see anything backing that up in the Trial. We know that Vivec used both the Neonymic and the Protonymic, but it's not like their function is AUTOMATICALLY complete erasure, the user should present the intention to erase, which is not something i see in this
 
I didn't want to comment on this thread, but I gotta point it out.

You keep saying that Vivec used Azura's nymic to erase her. No. That's not what's happening. He used her nymic to bind her to Mundus, and he completely manifested her to Nirn. Then he used her nymic to strip her down to only her name.

"Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."

Then he proceeded to tap into CHIM and erase her.

"Vivec: "Recognize this? The blood, I mean, not the silly bone-frozen Bosmer. No? It's from one of yours. He died in your name. And so by the blood of this khajiit, I climb you, moon and moon, and Dance on your Tower. AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you. AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you."

Azura: "CHIM? HOW?"

Vivec assembles a spear from the bones of his armor.

Vivec: "Here, this is Muatra. Guess what it represents."

Vivec stuffs Muatra into Azura's mouth. Azura chokes!

Vivec: "YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART"

Azura explodes."

"AE CHIM CE ALTADOON" means "and CHIM is my weapon".
 
Twellas said:
Ok now seriously, let's take a step back because if we don't we are never gonna see the end of this.

Can we see proof of either

1- the act of banishing constituting a complete erasure

2- Azura's case actually being complete erasure

Because i really don't see anything backing that up in the Trial. We know that Vivec used both the Neonymic and the Protonymic, but it's not like their function is AUTOMATICALLY complete erasure, the user should present the intention to erase, which is not something i see in this
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And no it does say he used chim to make her explode. The nymics were strictly just to bind her existence to mundus
 
Even if we didnt prove it was erasure she still regens from an unquantifably 1-A attack. So they do keep their true godly
 
The issue is regenerating from chim is regenerating from a 1A attack that contains like so much shit beyond an existemce erasure thats just 1A
 
All we know is that Azura "exploded", she wasn't erased, let's not twist the words around now, and the definition of True-Godly is "he ability to regenerate from being erased on a level beyond the confines and concept of dimensions", i don't think simply regenerating from a 1-A attack classifies as that, even if it destroys the entirety of your physical form. And let's not forget that there was something left of Mehrunes after he was "exploded", yes, different dynamics, and "explosion" method, but it surely doesn't help the erasure thesis.
 
Asriel77 said:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/577838?useskin=oasisGree names already agreed in a thread u dont need to be erased
Click to expand...
That's just straight up false, the concept of not being erased isn't even remotely mentioned in this thread, if anything there's Sera, the guy who came up with the concept in the first place, saying that there needs to be erasure multiple times
Evidence2
Evidence3
Vivecregen


This makes absolute sense, because why in the hell would we go from the need to, and i quote, "regenerate even after the totality of your existence is erased" for high-godly to "regen from any degree of damage suffered from a 1-A source" for true-godly? I's just plain illogical.
 
Basically, we need someone knowledgable to tell us if coming back from non-total 1-A destruction is true-godly
 
There was a discussion about that and im pretty sure True-Godly is staying its just the definition is changing.
 
We need someone knowledgeable about regen to give his opinion on this problem so that we can close it once and for all. Know who we should contact?
 
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