Questions about Vivec's True Godly regen

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I already explained early on, Hykuu. There's no need to accuse me of poisoning the well. Everything that happens in Vivec's Trial implies that Azura literally died. In fact there was a whole other Dev / Fan Roleplay on the old forums which ran on the base premise that Azura didn't exist anymore for a brief time. Though she eventually got better, because as Michael Kirkbride himself once said when asked if it was possible to kill a god, "You can't kill an idea". Gods in Elder Scrolls are pretty much unkillable by definition. Just look at Lorkhan, who is the quintessential example of a "Dead God" in the series but he's dead in name only.

There's also Vivec's explanation of how dying is to a god, and he compares it to returning to a dream after sleep, at which point you can return to the waking world of mortals whenever you so wish.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Matthew seems to make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's also the fact that the gods are literal concepts / ideas, so even if they as identities are killed they as concepts will still exist. Which is probably what happened to Lorkhan.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't really see why Azura exploding and Vivec stating he banished her is a reason to believe she wasn't really killed / erased. Daedra aren't exactly physical beings as is, and this obviously extends to Daedric Princes, who are straight-up inconstant, amorphous spirits at their core and can't even fully exist in Mundus unless its fabric is sufficiently merged with Oblivion's.

The whole point of an entity's true names (In the case of Daedric Princes, their Proto and Neonymics) in The Elder Scrolls is that they are the underlying basis for their whole existence: They are their tone within the Song of the Aurbis. When you use a Prince's Nymics against them, you are effectively messing up with their very existence and what makes them who they are, and in Vivec and The Hero of the Battlespire's case, they used this to disperse a Prince's form and cut off their influence from wherever they are present, which is shown by them exploding.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Lorkhan is similarly described as being "bound" by the Laws of Convention in a text (Mankar Camoran's Commentaries) and that isn't necessarily exclusive to the idea that he was executed as punishment in Convention. Both things happened.

 

[Twellas]

Ok, so basically it's true godly because the method through which they got "exploded" is one which inherently messes with the "fabric" of their existence, correct?

Ok, with that out of the way, i would like to ask why beings who are superior to the Daedra get their same Regenerationn simply by being superior to them. Is there some canon explaination like in the Tribunal's case or are we going off of some sort of external logic?

Where\when was the Clockwork city stated to be a recreation of the entirety of Mundus and not just of Nirn?

Why do Sotha and Vivec get conceptual manipulation just by being superior to someone who has thhat ability? Again, is there some other justification or is there a reason?

Do you agree that it would be best for everyone to add more sources to the profiles themselves? I could even help out myself if the need calls

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well mainly because all spirits in TES, mortal and immortal, were once the boundless and ineffable Et'Ada so all Original Spirits scale.

Vivec has CHIM and CHIM has been described as a way to reach the state of existence of an Et'Ada while maintaining your individual mortal form.

The power of the ALMSIVI comes from Lorkhan, an Et'Ada.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Pretty much, yeah. An entity's nymic basically comprises their whole existence in The Elder Scrolls, which includes their Soul / Animus. Dagon even threatens to reduce the Apprentice's soul to "component syllables" at the end of Battlespire.

Because all of the Gods in TES share a fundamental nature at the core of their being, even if some are more closely aligned to Anu or to Padomay, they still possess the same overall nature as Et'Ada who descended unto lower forms through subgradience. Though I admit it's sorta weird to scale Artificial / "Mortal" Gods like the ALMSIVI to genuine Et'Ada in this aspect.

It was in a podcast with the writers of the Clockwork City DLC. It being a recreation of Mundus as a whole also fits with Sotha Sil's goal of remaking the whole creation of the Aedra, with Nirn being just the main target of this goal, and the fact it is said to be infinite, and to be a replication of the Aurbis' "wheels within wheels a worlds within worlds" construction.

Same as the second paragraph.

Maybe? There are already Blogs that clarify most of the series' cosmology. But if you want the profiles to have more scans then be my guest.

 

[Twellas]

what question are you answering to righht now? I'm kinda lost

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think there's NPC dialogue that describes the Clockwork City as reshaping Mundus.

 

[Twellas]

well, i think we can agree there needs to be a source for that, because it's a HUGE feat

 

[Zhepar]

there are others things about this, but i have this one.

"We chose the Clockwork City to be The Elder Scrolls Online's next zone because it's a unique location that we haven't fully explored," says Creative Director Rich Lambert. "This is Sotha Sil's realm. It's his interpretation of how the world looks, how it works, or perhaps how he wants it to be. The entire realm was fabricated, so it's very different from what we've done before ― which is really cool. And, of course, it's Sotha Sil, and Elder Scrolls fans love Sotha Sil. He's a mad genius."

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

can we give the dova madness resistance and void mani resistance

MR because he was able to read and go to the real of mora that is said to make people go insane just by seeing the books and then we have the dova doing not only that but entering the realm

as for VMR becasue he fought alduin and that is alduins whole thing

 

[Twellas]

there are others things about this, but i have this one.
"We chose the Clockwork City to be The Elder Scrolls Online's next zone because it's a unique location that we haven't fully explored," says Creative Director Rich Lambert. "This is Sotha Sil's realm. It's his interpretation of how the world looks, how it works, or perhaps how he wants it to be. The entire realm was fabricated, so it's very different from what we've done before ― which is really cool. And, of course, it's Sotha Sil, and Elder Scrolls fans love Sotha Sil. He's a mad genius."

Nothing in that statement supports that the Clockwork City is a recreation of all of Mundus

 

[Hykuu]

"This is Sotha Sil's realm. It's his interpretation of how the world looks, how it works, or perhaps how he wants it to be"

Seems pretty clear cut that it is directly different from mundus, as it's his own perspective of how the world works, also seems a bit flowery

 

[Twellas]

again, what, in that sentence, says that the clockwork city is a recreation of mundus? Only the word "world" is used and we have other sources saying it only replicates Nirn, in "on the clockwork city" it's said that it's a "recreation of Nirn itself"

 

[Hykuu]

"Seems pretty clear cut that it is directly different from mundus"

^^what I said

 

[Twellas]

ohh i read wrong, sorry.

Btw, the wikis also say that it is a recreation of Nirn, not using it as proof, just saying that if there is proof of it being the size of Mundus it's essential to show it

 

[Twellas]

Also, in TESO, a loading screen says: " The Clockwork City [...] is said to be a great and intricate mechanism that duplicates the mythic structures of Nirn in metallic miniature "

 

[Self_Love]

This is where it's from.

Lawrence Schick: So the Clockwork City is the Clockwork God Sotha Sils experimental miniature recapitulation of the entire Mundus, in one small, apparently small, container. And it's built in order to both imitate and recapitulate the world above [...]

And inside you will find that Sotha Sil has built mechanical replicas of various aspects of the world above which are being used in experiments by his clockwork apostles to test out his various theories on the world, which was created originally of course by the Aedra, when they sacrificed themselves to become the Earthbones. When they created the world, it was in the opinion of Sotha Sil, a flawed creation and he is looking for ways, where thereby it can be perfected.

Loading Screen: It is said that Sotha Sil's Fabrication Chambers can analyze anything in the Mundus, organic or inorganic, and reproduce it in clockwork form.

 

[Hykuu]

Even if that was the case, it is made clear this recreation is far from a complete experiment and shouldn't be the same as mundus at all and simply have some changed properties

 

[Twellas]

Who is thhis "Lawrence Schhick? Why is his word proof? The statement from the loading screen simply says that Sotha's chambers can analyze anything in the mundus, not that the clockwork city is a recreation of Mundus

And I think we should also add to his profile that it took him 10 years to build the city, as well as him having help, just to set the record perfectly straight

 

[Hykuu]

"Lawrence Schick is the lead Loremaster and writer for The Elder Scrolls Online"

- random google search

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lawrence Schick was the Loremaster and one of the Lead Writers for The Elder Scrolls Online, working on Zenimax Studios from 2009 to 2019. His entire job was to know Elder Scrolls Lore and keep it consistent, so his word is the closest thing to "WoG" we have on the series. Along with other important writers like Michael Kirkbride, Kurt Kuhlmann and Leamon Tuttle (The current Loremaster).

 

[Hykuu]

Also, in TESO, a loading screen says: " The Clockwork City [...] is said to be a great and intricate mechanism that duplicates the mythic structures of Nirn in metallic miniature "

If this is true, then you can easily disregard the WoG as a contradicting statement conflicting what the many other writers think

 

[Twellas]

For some reason it doesn't let me post the picture, it tells me "permission error", gimme a sec to figure it out

 

[Twellas]

Here it is

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Conflicting terminology isn't exactly uncommon in TES Lore. Both Mundus and Nirn have been called the Aurbis in two separate occasions, and even then, treating the statements on the Clockwork City replicating Nirn and it replicating Mundus as mutually exclusive isn't exactly the best thing to do. The whole point of it is that it replicates the entire creation of the Aedra and is Sotha Sil's vision for it - The statements about it being infinite and comprised of worlds within worlds pretty much seals the deal on that.

And I don't think that's necessary. The Clockwork City is an extension of Sotha Sil; It is his plane, and he even mentions that he could destroy it if he wanted.

 

[Twellas]

Ok, but I mean, if we have explicit statements about it being a recreation of Nirn from multiple sources, don't you think it's a little disingenuous to write that it recreates all of Mundus on Sotha's profile? It's assumption on our part to say that it replicates anything beyond Nirn, no matter how logical it is in the grand scheme of things

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like Ultima and Matthew can handle this without me, so I will unsubscribe from the thread.

Feel free to add some references to the questioned information to the Elder Scrolls pages if you deem it necessary.

 

[Twellas]

Conflicting terminology isn't exactly uncommon in TES Lore. Both Mundus and Nirn have been called the Aurbis in two separate occasions, and even then, treating the statements on the Clockwork City replicating Nirn and it replicating Mundus as mutually exclusive isn't exactly the best thing to do. The whole point of it is that it replicates the entire creation of the Aedra and is Sotha Sil's vision for it - The statements about it being infinite and comprised of worlds within worlds pretty much seals the deal on that.
And I don't think that's necessary. The Clockwork City is an extension of Sotha Sil; It is his plane, and he even mentions that he could destroy it if he wanted.

It was stated to be infinite? When?

 

[Twellas]

Anyone still here?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

yes

 

[Self_Love]

It was stated to be infinite? When?

The same podcast

Although, I wouldn't fault anyone for being skeptical due to Lawrence's choice of words. It's a universe at bare minimum due to being filled with stars, nebulae and galaxies. As shown here, here, here and here

Gina Bruno: Somebody was asking if the Clockwork City is some sort of parallel universe and if it's endless.

Lawrence Schick: Kind of. Both those questions is kind of. In fact it's a deliberate parallel universe, in that it deliberately parallels Tamriel above. And what was the second part?

Gina Bruno: Is it endless?

Lawrence Schick: Is it endless? You don't see nearly all of it from what you can see of it in the game. It has layers, and only Sotha Sil knows the full extent of those layers and what the functions of some of the other areas are [...]

That's just what you can see from the Brass Fortress, and you can see that Sotha Sil has taken the concept of wheels within wheels and worlds within worlds and has made it manifest right over your head. So you're constantly contemplating the fact that the world is a built thing and therefore it can be reverse engineered, re engineered and improved! Look, there's the proof right above your head! So yeah, it's profound as hell! Goddamn this stuff is deep!

 

[Twellas]

Ok, it's "kind of" a universe, which goes fairly well with it being a recreation of Nirn, since the latter is a plane more than a planet. It's never stated that it's infinite, all Lawrence says is that "You don't see nearly all of it from what you can see of it in the game", that "it has layers" and that "it's profound as hell", none of these statements support is being infinite in size, only very big, and even if it was infinite, it wouldn't be enough to prove that it recreates all of Mundus when we have numerous in-game statements of it recreating Nirn.

 

[Self_Love]

I'm showing you the source of what's being used for the profiles, not supporting or arguing against it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You are acting like different accounts using conflicting terminology immediately disprove anything. The Clockwork City is just supposed to be a mirror of the entirety of the world above it and is literally the concept of "Wheels within Wheels and Worlds within Worlds" made manifest by Sotha Sil. You could also use that same argument to say that it only replicates Tamriel, which obviously isn't the case. It being a replication of Nirn and a replication of Mundus aren't separate statements, but rather talking about the same thing from different contexts.

 

[Twellas]

All we have here is 2 In-game accounts saying that it replicates nirn, and 2 outside accounts, one saying that it replicates Mundus and one saying something about it having layers. Nothing in-game even implies that the Clockwork city is anything beyond a recreation of Nirn, and yes, it COULD also be a recreation of Nirn WITHIN a recreation of Mundus, but that's speculation, and why would Barilzar, someone who "spent many years at the Magus' side, helping to mantain and expand his ultimate creation" and who perfectly knows the ins and outs of the Clockwork City fail to mention that it replicates all of Mundus AND THEN Nirn in "On the Clockwork City". Saying that the CC recreates all of Mundus is a leap in logic with barely any proof backing it up and said proof isn't even presented in the profile.

Going back to the namesake of this Thread: I got that theoretically Nymic influences the very fabric of a being's being, but how do we justify the "ruin" of Mehrunes after Sotha's Chrononymic death word? It's undeniable that there was something left, however small\incorporeal\abstract, of Mehrunes after the death word that he could regenerate off of, is there a reason to think it would be any different for Azura? And i mean, these 2 feats aren't nearly solid enough to scale AN ENTIRE VERSE off of, there should be no room for speculation in something like this

 

[Self_Love]

And you don't seem to understand basic TES cosmology

Nirn is a planet with it's own timeline, while Mundus is the space that surrounds said planet; aka the stars you see in the sky.

Sotha Sil was obsessed with perfection, and since he perceived the Mundus to be flawed, he created his own version outside space & time and within interdimensional space. We know it's not just a recreation of Nirn because the actual realm is filled to the brim with stars, nebulae and galaxies, alongside WoG directly stating his creation is a replication of the entire Mundus. You're completely ignoring context and only taking statements that fit your viewpoint.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I should also note that Sotha Sil didn't destroy Dagon using his Nymics either. He used what appeared to be a Death Spell which killed him across all of time. It's completely different from what Vivec and the Apprentice of the Battlespire did.

Again, scaling other Et'Ada to Azura's feat is 100% sound, and I already explained why in this post.