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Questioning Universal JoJo

Ogbunabali said:
I was under the impression we treated range = potency, considering it erased all of it not just some part across it. But I'm fine if it's just range.
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Nah, we make a clear distinction between those actually. There have been many cases where range =/= has been discussed for characters in this wiki.

So you're fine with 3D time hax with universal range? Ok.
 
Ogbunabali said:
What are you even talking about. Stopping time in an entire timeline is 4D, but no one even said it's better than any other 3D hax where did that even come from that's not even a discussion.

It is if it erased 10 sec of an entire timeline.
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Yes, but by our standards if it's 4D, but it's not superior to any 3D hax, then it's not truly 4D. It's just a 3D hax that can interact with time. If an ability becomes 4D only by virtue of interacting with time, then it can't have a High 3-A tier, not can it be considered a 4D ability (by our standards).

About this, see above ^^. It needs to be infinitely superior to a 3D hax for it to be tiered as 4D by "our" standards. Because our tiering system is built around the fact that "a higher dimension is infinitely above a lower one", therefore if we have "A 4D ability that is no different from a 3D one besides the fact that it's interacting with time" then it cannot get a tier by our standards cus of the higher/lower dimensional interaction in our system.
 
Just because a character has an ability that's 4D doesn't mean they themselves are 4D and are subject to 3D abilities.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
snip
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Ok first of all you need to understand something. All time based abilities have to be 4D. In our world there are 3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension. In order for your ability to mess with time it has to act on the "+1" temporal dimension, it cannot be a 3D temporal ability because that makes absolutely 0 sense, because 3D = 3 spatial dimensions. 4D = 3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension.

Now with that out of the way. It still affects the entirety of the timeline, not just somewhere across. I still say it should stay with High 3-A potency, but if everyone decides it shouldn't I'll settle for just range.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Just because a character has an ability that's 4D doesn't mean they themselves are 4D and are subject to 3D abilities.
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That's what a "smurf" is. But im talking about the ability itself. If the ability is 4D by virtue of interacting with time, and "nothing else" then it cannot get a tier by our standards. Because it needs to be infinitely superior to any 3D hax.

  • High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
If a 4D power is not inf superior to a 3D then it cannot be considered 4D by our standards nor have any of the benefits. It'll just be a 3D power that can interact with time.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
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Ok you don't seem to understand that 4D means 4 spatial dimensions, not 3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension, in that context. A 4D creature that's 4th spatial dimensional is infinitely above a creature that is 3 dimensional. There is a huge difference between the two. I'm not saying it's 4D like Mr. Myx is 5D that's non nonsensical. I'm saying it's 4D in the context of 3+1. It's really not that hard to understand.
 
The God Of Procrastination said:
What if you punch, and it destroys the timeline?
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That's 4D raw AP. (Doesn't mean the person himself is 4D though, just that he has 4D raw AP cus that makes sense in fiction Most of dragon ball)
 
I do understand that. The 4th dimensions is obviously time. So a 4D power would be:

3 Spatial x Temporal

While from the 4D's perspective any 3D power would be

3 spatial x 0

Which is what makes any 4D power infinitely superior cus from a 4D perspective, a 3D is just 0.

I know what you're trying to say. "It's 4D cus it can interact with time, but it's not more powerful than anything 3D". That does make sense since it interacts with time, but it doesn't qualify by our standards. That's what im trying to say. "It is techinically 4D since it can interact with time, but it cannot be considered 4D by our standards or have any of the benefits every 4D power should have. Therefore by the wiki's rules we keep it simply as a 3D power that can interact with time. That doesn't give it any tier."
 
No that's wrong on so may levels. That's not how dimensions work.

And just because "it doesn't have any benefit" doesn't invalidate that it's a temporal power. Not to mention it still affects an entire timeline in it's entirety.
 
The standards are, even if it's technically 4D since it's small-scale we don't give it a tier of High 3-A.
 
Ogbunabali said:
No that's wrong on so may levels. That's not how dimensions work.
And just because "it doesn't have any benefit" doesn't invalidate that it's a temporal power. Not to mention it still affects an entire timeline in it's entirety.
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That is not how dimensions work. That is how our system works. A Time Stop is not always 4D, because it can stop time. Yes it can stop time, but it's not any different than any 3D power. So our rules say that in those cases a 4D ability should be treated as "a 3D ability that can interact with time".

Giving it a High 3-A tier or saying "the power is 4D" creates confusion as it makes it look as though "it's superior to any 3D power" and "No 3D power can affect it since it's 4D". Both of these statements are false in this case, which is why "even though the ability is 4D in nature, since it affects time" we dismiss that and just treat it as a 3D ability that can affect time.

Im tired of repeating myself, you can go ask a staff member this "If a time ability is not any different from a 3D ability potency wise, can it still be considered 4D and be given a High 3-A tier?" and see for yourself. Long story short, Diavolo doesn't qualify for High 3-A, and neither does GER (since GER scale from Diavolo).
 
The tiering system refers to spatial dimensions being infinitely above the previous dimension, which will change with the Ultima revision, it doesn't talk about temporal dimensions. I'm tired of debating semantics as well.

Both GER and Diavolo still qualify for High 3-A because they affect an entire timeline.
 
No they don't they affect time as 3D. Ugh this is so tiring, just go ask a staff member or sth.

  • High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
This is literally in the wiki rules and you still want to deny it. This rule here is literally screaming "GER and Diavolo don't qualify for High 3-A" and you're denying it. This rule is talking about "the universe" which is "3 spatial + 1 temporal dimensions" yet it's saying "A 4D power HAS to be infinitely superior to be 4D and not just a small scale time-space hax".
 
Ogbunabali said:
The tiering system refers to spatial dimensions being infinitely above the previous dimension, which will change with the Ultima revision, it doesn't talk about temporal dimensions. I'm tired of debating semantics as well.

Both GER and Diavolo still qualify for High 3-A because they affect an entire timeline.
Click to expand...
1. That won't change with the Ultima revision, I don't think the Ultima revision will even downgrade any verses, just a few stray profiles here and there that just have a higher tier from walking around as a haxless 8-D being.

2. While they affect an entire timeline they only affect a small part of it time-wise (10 seconds), which is what is meant by small-scale.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
No they don't they affect time as 3D. Ugh this is so tiring, just go ask a staff member or sth.
  • High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
This is literally in the wiki rules and you still want to deny it. This rule here is literally screaming "GER and Diavolo don't qualify for High 3-A" and you're denying it. This rule is talking about "the universe" which is "3 spatial + 1 temporal dimensions" yet it's saying "A 4D power HAS to be infinitely superior to be 4D and not just a small scale time-space hax".
Click to expand...
You do realize that still falls under what GER and DIavolo can do right? They have temporal power which is for all intents and purposes here 4D, and you need another temporal power, which is again for all intents and purposes, 4D to counter it. What 3 spatially dimensional power is going to help you against directly erasing 10 seconds? And it also says "Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP." which is literally what I'm talking about. Their powers are, well not small scale becase they affect the entirty of the universe, but small scale in the sense that it's 10 seconds.


@Agnaa

1. Yes it will. Ultima's revisions are going to change verses that don't treat higher dimensions as infinitely superior to the previous dimension. And that will no longer be the default stance.

2. Yes exactly. That's what I'm talking about. But that doesn't invalidate their hax potency. It just means that they can't punch with High 3-A capability. Which no one is arguing for.
 
You don't need 4D power null to null Diavolo and GER, so that part is false. You don't need a 4D power to beat them therefore they are not 4D by our standards. Look they just aren't idk if you're doing this on purpose or if you're not actually getting my point but eh. They are temporal powers but you don't need 4D power null to affect them. You cn null them with 3D null just fine.

And even Hax can have potency. That rule says "small temporal abilities count as hax not ap" it means "they can't get a tier, they aren't infinitely above 3D and therefore cannot be given a 4D ranking withouc creating confusion".
 
So what are the conclusions here?

For the record, I think that the first post seems to make sense, but it is best to ask all staff members listed in the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure verse page to comment here.
 
I do not think we give any time stop ability universal range unless proven. Even if it does not make sense realistically.

If things like "astronomy remaining unchanged after the time stop" are arguments against the range downgrade, then I don't find them convincing. This is just me speaking in general about time related abilities tho, I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on jojo specifically.
 
Antvasima said:
So what are the conclusions here?
Click to expand...
Conclusions:

  • Diavolo's time erasure range goes to Planetary.
  • GER loses High 3-A (since it scales from the time erasure, and Diavolo's hax don't count as 4D by our standards). And his Hax tier should be: At least Planet level via Hax/Zero Reset (Negated a time erasure that affected the whole world, but the full extents and limitations of his abilities are unknown)
  • Other time stop users go to Planetary range with time stop.
However personally i am a bit sceptical on Planetary AP for Zero Reset. I mean can Zero Reset be translated into AP?
 
Araki is not known for inconsistencies on a cosmic level. And bizarreness notwithstanding, he tries to keep what he writes as scientific as possible. And when something with a large enough range is used, he shows its effects on random people nearby - either makes them notice or makes them subjected to whatever is happening. Obviously, a universal timestop cannot be noticed by normal people but on the one occasion he wrote a cosmic level effect taking place (Made in Heaven), he made everyone, including scientists and normal people, notice. Heck, he drew Pucci over a scene from the universe, obviously as a stylistic choice, but also to show that what Pucci was doing was affecting the entire universe. And Star Platinum's timestop was able to stop all of it, even if momentarily.

That, and Araki's statement can also easily be interpreted to mean "universe" as well.

In conclusion, I don't agree with the range downgrade.
 
Ogbunabali said:
I really don't know how else I need to exlpain that 4D =/= 3D.

That doesn't not make the hax have less potancy.
Click to expand...
And i don't know how to explain that it's not 4D by our standards. I didn't create the rules.

Yes it does. From 4D to 3D there is an infinite difference in potency.
 
I disagree with tiering GER's hax in the first place, and if you do give them a tier, you'd have to give it to Diavolo too.

In fact, GER is 2High 3-A via hax" not by causing High 3-A levels of destruction, but just preventing them from happening with Causality Manipulation, which is something we don't give Tiers to, no matter the scale or potency.

If anything, if you want to give their hax a Tier, Diavolo deserves it far more than Giorno does.
 
Yeah, we don't write in Khârn's page "High 5-A, (High) 1-B with Powernull" or something like that. I agree that it shouldn't be written in the AP/tier section.
 
DMB 1 said:
I disagree with tiering GER's hax in the first place, and if you do give them a tier, you'd have to give it to Diavolo too.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. GER doesn't translate to AP. He should simply stop being treated as 4D in power.
 
DMB 1 said:
I disagree with tiering GER's hax in the first place, and if you do give them a tier, you'd have to give it to Diavolo too.
In fact, GER is 2High 3-A via hax" not by causing High 3-A levels of destruction, but just preventing them from happening with Causality Manipulation, which is something we don't give Tiers to, no matter the scale or potency.

If anything, if you want to give their hax a Tier, Diavolo deserves it far more than Giorno does.
Click to expand...
I am 100% with DMB on this. Assigning tier to hax in the first place is absurd. I don't know why this wiki is obsessed with that.
 
I would guess it is due to how some series/ shows have characters "tanking" hax because of them being more powerful, this happens pretty typically in most battle shounen series.

An example being character 1 not being affected by timestop or ereasure because their power level is higher than character 2's power level or something like that.

Jojo doesn't really do power levels though, not the usual way atleast, stand stats are one of the most inconcistent things in fiction and the stats can be anything from the ability or the physical strength of the stand, etc.
 
I think hax tiers are just for when they replicate an AP feat with hax. Such as using math manip to increase the number of universes from 2 to infinity or using probability manipulation to make two planets collide.
 
I think tiering hax works because it establishes the limits of it, prevents people from wanking or downplaying it as they see fit during a match, it also stops dumb as hell matches being made/added as legitimate just because the brokeness of the hax isn't evident enough for one to realize how stompy of a matchup it is.
 
Ogbunabali said:
@Agnaa

1. Yes it will. Ultima's revisions are going to change verses that don't treat higher dimensions as infinitely superior to the previous dimension. And that will no longer be the default stance.

2. Yes exactly. That's what I'm talking about. But that doesn't invalidate their hax potency. It just means that they can't punch with High 3-A capability. Which no one is arguing for.
Click to expand...
1. It will change that, but it won't change affecting a multiverse to no longer be superior to affecting things within a single universe. And hell, things that can affect higher-dimensional multiverses will still be that higher-dimension. All of the higher-D verses (ones hanging around in tier 1) will stay the same, none will be downgraded. All of them have statements of dimensions being superior already.

2. It's not about them being able to punch with High 3-A power, it's the fact that it's in the AP section at all. It should not be under AP, since it's hax not AP. Are you at least fine with High 3-A being removed from there?
 
1. I never even insinuated half the stuff you're saying here. And I never even mention any downgrade. I literally said that if the dimension is not infinitely superior we won't treat give it a high tier because of it's dimensions alone.

2. Yes, I'm against any hax being there at all.
 
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