Questioning Universal JoJo

[HierophantDeluxe]

It doesn't bother me that they don't have "high 3-A via hax" in their profiles as it was never AP based hax to begin with, which is the case for many characters like Ryze. In general it's a small formatting issue, nobody has ever claimed Pucci can punch with universal levels of AP, so I agree with this.

You still need to prove the range is limited and confined to the area, as the simple ability of "stopping time" by default means all of time, not just the time within a certain radius.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Hier, It's your side that has to prove it's universal. We assume the lowest, not the highest.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

No we assume based on the statement. "Stopping time" logically means all of time and cannot mean a limited area around you unless specified.

I will repeat since people don't like to read: stopping time = stopping all of time (unless specified otherwise)

It's up to you guys to show me where it is specified otherwise.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

In fiction it's pretty common for time stop to be even around a certain area, so there is no reason to assume it's world 100% of the time. Just look at people like Esdeath (among other non universal time stop users).

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, but effecting time flow is assumed universal in range unless otherwise shown so it should be the same for time stop.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, but effecting time flow is assumed universal in range unless otherwise shown so it should be the same for time stop.

Nah i don't think it's the same. Since it's pretty common for time stop not to be universal.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I don't see why you would assume something like time stop to not stop all of time without evidence contradicting it. Do you expect the entire universe to be shown frozen every time it's used?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Fire

Sometimes it is, but most casual time stop is universal. Any form of casual time stop would need a range at least big enough that no one would notice time is stopped even our furthest out NASA tech, or it would have to have extremely short range to the point that any change is not grand scale enough to warrant any kind of attention of people outside the main story

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@Fire you literally list one other anime character.

Regardless the assumption of it being universal has nothing to do with other fictions or verses, but rather the implications of the ability via the name:

Time stop. Not time stop in an area, not time stop for you, time stop. The noun "time" refers to the entirety of the concept, and time exists everywhere within our universe. So to break it down, time, which exists everywhere within the universe, is being stopped.

Of course this can be contradicted with pseudo-time stops like Esdeath or that one guy from Fairy Tail and I am fine with that and acknowledge it. However, this means the burden of proof is on you to show us that it is limited to a confined space as by default it is not.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

that one guy from Fairy Tail and I am fine with that and acknowledge it.

Just saying, Zeref's range of time stop has never been shown to be contradicted. As in, it's not range limited. Same thing with Dimaria, the other timestopper in FT.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I don't know enough about them clearly, but thank you nevertheless.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I only know jojo superficially from debates so imma leave the range to other people here.

 

[X_Squared]

Since we're on the subject of time stop, shouldn't Awakened DIO's time stop limit be upped to 11 seconds? Cause when DIO used The World for the last time after he used the road roller, Jotaro notes that was his current time stop limit.

 

[Kirby71]

This Also bothers me, its more like Hax, i dont think putting someone to an infinite death loop gives you AP actually, Its more like Hax, in fact, Casualty manipulation, its justification is that he negated the time skip, which is universal un range.

First: It randomly assumes that the time skip is infinite un range, universal=/=infinite.

2nd: negating a time skip isnt AP, seems like power nullification (i dont remember if It was via Zero reset).

High 3-A? No, It shouldnt have randomly High 3-A AP, the justification doesnt seem to be actually AP.

Says it first Gets ignored Another person says it and gets the attentio

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Conclusions:

- Remove non-applicable AP hax from character tiers

- Universal time stop remains

That right?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Only the AP part was concluded. No High 3-A/Infinitely above 3D GER.

Universal you still gotta wait for TataHakai to conclude the range part.

 

[Kirby71]

'''Gets ignored'''

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's literally impossible for GER, to be 3D I don't understand why that's so hard for you to understand.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's literally impossible for GER, to be 3D I don't understand why that's so hard for you to understand.

I never said he is 3D (he still is 3D tbh, since he just causality maniped an action that affected time, he didn't affect time himself. Kind of like saying if my fist can nuke the universe and you shoot me with an ordinary gun, your gun is 4D [assuming i don't have low 2-C durability]), he's not infinitely above and therefore unaffected by any 3D power.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Not even close. Ok look, you seem to have a misunderstanding on what's actually going on in this thread, and you're just jumping on the bandwagon. This isn't a downgrade thread (except for the range), the hax would still have the same potency it won't be weaker. The only thing that would change, is that it will no longer appear in the AP section where it doesn't belong, since it is hax not AP.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You don't get it. Giorno doesn't have that much strength with GER. GER is not infinitely above 3D nor is it 4D. Look at the op m8.

Giorno Giovanna: At least Building level+ Physically(For Reasons on his profile at the moment), At least Planet level via Hax/Zero Reset (Negated a time erasure that affected the whole world, but the full extents and limitations of his abilities are unknown)

It wasn't to remove the AP cus it was redundant. It was to remove it cus it was wrong (the original plan was to downgrade his AP, but since it doesn't need to be there we can just remove it). Jojo stopped a 3D dude from using a time affecting ability. That is "NOT" 4D. You're undoing the actions of a 3D dude with a 3D causality reversal. Yes GER is losing his AP for his hax, but he's also losing potency, cus he never did anything that would make him 4D.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The OP completely missed on why GER's hax was 4D. And let's be clear, it is 4D.

We are removing it from the AP section cuz it isn't supposed to be there, but it is 4D. Undoing time erasure, which essentially erases a chunk of the time axis, is a 4D hax feat.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Giorno didn't just stop a 3-D dude from using his time erasing hax (which is also 4-D btw due to erasing a portion of space-time), he also restored the erased portion of space-time, making his Causality Manip easily 4-D too.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The ability is blatantly 4D there's nothing to discuss here. And you still don't understand the point of this thread.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No. GER uses causality to undo actions. If a 3D dude erases part of time, then 3D causality can undo that. Because even though the 3D dude erased time (a 4D structure) he is still 3D and therefore bound by the laws of 3D causality. The erasure is 4D sure, but he never did think about erasing. GER himself didn't affect time. He affected Diavolo which through a chain reaction ended up affecting time.

Saying GER is 4D cus it stopped a 3D dude from erasing time. Is like saying:

"If a 3D character has 1-A hax, he is immune to ANY ability that is not 1-A". Yes the ability he uses is 1-A, though the dude himself is 3D and can be affected by normal 3D abilities. Same case here, he erased time but 3D causality reversal still undoes his actions cus he's still 3D.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

True, but to reverse the time erasure, you still need to have 4-D Causality Manip. And it didn't not stop Diavolo from erasing time. Diavolo erased time and then GER reversed his action.

 

[DMB_1]

Giorno didn't just stop a 3-D dude from using his time erasing hax (which is also 4-D btw due to erasing a portion of space-time), he also restored the erased portion of space-time, making his Causality Manip easily 4-D too.

Yes, but you cannot "Tier" Causality Manipulation, hence why it shouldn't be listed as "High 3-A via hax".

So, can we all agree to remove that from Giorno's profile?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

That has already been agreed upon. Fire just insists on GER's CM being 3-D.

 

[Axl233]

This should have been done it a long time ago,Jojo was never about ap anyway.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No. You don't need 4D causality.

He did stop it though he stopped him "after he had erased it". Laws of causality m8, he stopped it in the past i guess you could say.

Diavolo -> Thinks -> Erases time

GER just undoes the thinking part going back to neutral Diavolo. If Diavolo had is "3D thoughts" undone, then he never thought about erasing time, which means he never erased time. You don't need 4D causality for that. As GER just erased the thoughts of a 3D dude and since the 4D action required a 3D thought, with that thought being gone, the 4D action cannot exist.

It's just basic laws of Causality, nothing special about it. You use a 3D causality manip to undo a 3D action which caused a 4D effect. The 4D effect is reliant on the exstence of a 3D action, so 3D undoing a 3D in this case will result in the 4D action being gone.

GER is 3D.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I can't comprehend how someone can claim that a temporal ability is 3D.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@DMB

We all agree that it should be removed from the profile, but Fire thinks that this is because GER's hax suddenly aren't 4D. Everyone else just thinks that it shouldn't be on there because it is a misuse of the template

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I can't comprehend how someone can claim that a temporal ability is 3D.

GER is temporal? Lol

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@DMB
We all agree that it should be removed from the profile, but Fire thinks that this is because GER's hax suddenly aren't 4D. Everyone else just thinks that it shouldn't be on there because it is a misuse of the template

No, i do understand that it is hax and it shouldn't have any AP at all. Im just arguing that besides the tier, it is not 4D at all. I do get the hax is not AP point.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

I don't get it,isn't Time Stop a Universal feat itself?Unless if is stated to be not of course

 

[Ogbunabali]

GER is temporal? Lol

It literally is.....

 

[Axl233]

But GER dint undone the action of Diavolo using his power,he already use it but because "lol infinite speed" it dint work on him and he rewind his movements and the time erasure with casuality manip.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

If GER had 3-D hax, it would revert back to the point where Diavolo thought about erasing time. But, its just 3-D hax so it should not be able to interact with space-time, meaning that the erased time would remain erased. So when time flows normally again, the time skipping would still occur. Since that isn't the case, GER's CM is clearly 4-D.

 

[DMB_1]

I am honestly starting to think that restricting this "unspecified time-stop = Universal range" just to Jojo is not very practical and that a more general thread should be made about it, otherwise this thread might just never end.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

GER didn't stop a dude from erasing time. He undid the erasure of time, there by restoring it. That is a 4D hax feat, plain and simple. Restoring a chunk of space time with hax is a 4D feat. Look man, I don't have time to sit down, and repeat the same points.