Prototype 1 AP/Lifting Strength Revision

[RisingIons]

Heller would be part of Prototype 2 revisions. He mainly gets his tier from Alex but his whole profile needs a face lift.

 

[DeathNoodles]

That's fair, but shouldn't it be better to leave his end-game and Mercer-absorbed keys as 8-A tiers with Class M LS as the current placeholders for now until you get to the P2 Revisions?

Those are the only changes for Heller since he directly scales to 8-A Mercer via clashing and defeating him, along with the absorption, the rest of his keys are left as it is until you get to the P2 Revisions. We wouldn't want to have users be confused with Alex Mercer being 8-A, yet Heller defeating and consuming him only has mere 8-C tier after all. XD

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That's fair, but shouldn't it be better to leave his end-game and Mercer-absorbed keys as 8-A tiers with Class M LS as the current placeholders for now until you get to the P2 Revisions?

Those are the only changes for Heller since he directly scales to 8-A Mercer via clashing and defeating him, along with the absorption, the rest of his keys are left as it is until you get to the P2 Revisions. We wouldn't want to have users be confused with Alex Mercer being 8-A, yet Heller defeating and consuming him only has mere 8-C tier after all. XD

True.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The revision is mostly calcs, and there's already a handful of staff support so you can go ahead with the changes. No one has contested it so far, and it seems unlikely that someone will for something relatively small like this.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Alright then. I'll go ahead and be the one to apply the changes.

 

[DeathNoodles]

The changes are done based on the Prototype 1 calculations and scaling.

I guess this thread has been concluded now.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

To whoever edited the page, could you please fix all the formatting issues. You added Low 7-C to the Attack Potency section and didn't spell it out. You also did not indicate Low 7-C in the Tier section.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I just fixed it. It was a mistake on my end. XD

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Heller's 8-C key should be 8-B. It mentions in the blog that he can take thermobaric rockets. Same thing with Giliaths.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Heller's 8-C key should be 8-B. It mentions in the blog that he can take thermobaric rockets. Same thing with Giliaths.

That's a good point, someone should fix that real quick.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If I can get staff approval I can make the changes. I also need a clip of the thermobaric missiles hitting Heller.

 

[Abstractions]

What I'm not understanding is why he's being given LS for an AP calculation in which we don't even see how the events transpired, if he busted through it with strength, he's 9-A, but that doesn't immediately qualify him for Class M.

Also disagree with that kind of scaling for the Alex's transformations, Musclemass explicitly increases strength twofold, when not using it he ends up weaker, the other transformations excel in different ways but aren't any better than the other.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If I can get staff approval I can make the changes. I also need a clip of the thermobaric missiles hitting Heller.

Not the best clip, but go to 7:10

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What I'm not understanding is why he's being given LS for an AP calculation in which we don't even see how the events transpired, if he busted through it with strength, he's 9-A, but that doesn't immediately qualify him for Class M.

Also disagree with that kind of scaling for the Alex's transformations, Musclemass explicitly increases strength twofold, when not using it he ends up weaker, the other transformations excel in different ways but aren't any better than the other.

The Blade actually does more damage than every other power aside from Devastators, including Musclemass.

 

[Abstractions]

The Blade actually does more damage than every other power aside from Devastators, including Musclemass.

It's a cutting weapon, different powers excel at different things.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Not the best clip, but go to 7:10

The Rad CHAD! Thanks.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It's a cutting weapon, different powers excel at different things.

It's literally stated to have the most powerful strikes at Alex's Disposal.

The literal description of the ability: A powerful and deadly cutting and thrusting weapon, perfect for slicing and swiping through even the toughest armored vehicles or infected hides. This attack power allows access to the most powerful strikes available.

 

[Abstractions]

It's literally stated to have the most powerful strikes at Alex's Disposal.

Cutting and piercing can do that, yes. The hammerfist excels at taking out vehicles and deals more effective damage in an AoE, Blade is more single target, Claws have more DPS because of their speed, etc. I have played Prototype, I know what the stuff does.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Cutting and piercing can do that, yes. The hammerfist excels at taking out vehicles and deals more effective damage in an AoE, Blade is more single target, Claws have more DPS because of their speed, etc.

The Blade is literally stated to be best for Armored Vehicles and Opponents, so the Hammerfist immediately becomes useless.

 

[Abstractions]

The Blade is literally stated to be best for Armored Vehicles and Opponents, so the Hammerfist immediately becomes useless.

Hammerfist performs better in AoE so no, it doesn't suddenly become obsolete, This is all the same biomass on Alex, it's just going into different places and each have their own specialty. Blade can pierce armored cars but Hammerfist "shatters". This is a case of blunt vs. piercing.

Where the Claws don't perform in comparison to Blade is the lack of extra offense dedicated to one arm, the mass is put towards one strong blade vs. two claws that cut through crowds easier. Musclemass is purely attributed to Alex's physicals rather than creating weapons for such.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hammerfist performs better in AoE so no, it doesn't suddenly become obsolete, This is all the same biomass on Alex, it's just going into different places and each have their own specialty. Blade can pierce armored cars but Hammerfist "shatters". This is a case of blunt vs. piercing.

Where the Claws don't perform in comparison to Blade is the lack of extra offense dedicated to one arm, the mass is put towards one strong blade vs. two claws that cut through crowds easier. Musclemass is purely attributed to Alex's physicals rather than creating weapons for such.

I really don't think you understand. The Blade is stronger than every single powed in Prototype (aside from Devastators). If I wanted Crowd Control, I'd use the Whipfist's Street Sweeper attack.

 

[Abstractions]

I really don't think you understand. The Blade is stronger than every single powed in Prototype (aside from Devastators). If I wanted Crowd Control, I'd use the Whipfist's Street Sweeper attack.

I actually think with that last sentence you should have had an epiphany there, as you had just agreed with me that if you wanted something to perform within its specialty, you'd use that thing. That's why you just said you'd use the Whipfist over the Blade, you are acknowledging these attack tools each excel at a certain task.

You may not think I'm understanding what you are saying, but I think you understand what I'm saying perfectly well, which is why you just supported my argument here.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I actually think with that last sentence you should have had an epiphany there, as you had just agreed with me that if you wanted something to perform within its specialty, you'd use that thing. That's why you just said you'd use the Whipfist over the Blade, you are acknowledging these attack tools each excel at a certain task.

You may not think I'm understanding what you are saying, but I think you understand what I'm saying perfectly well, which is why you just supported my argument here.

No, that's stupid. The Blade is literally stated as having the most powerful strikes at his disposal which puts it over everything else regardless of AoE, which includes Musclemass (from this point onward I'm just gonna stop mentioning Devastators since they're obviously the exception). I mentioned Whipfist since it has better Crowd Control then the Hammerfist which already negates your point.

 

[Abstractions]

No, that's stupid.

We were so close.

The Blade is literally stated as having the most powerful strikes at his disposal which puts it over everything else regardless of AoE, which includes Musclemass (from this point onward I'm just gonna stop mentioning Devastators since they're obviously the exception).

Because it has the highest piercing and operates through slashing vs. blunt force against armor, this isn't a hard premise to understand. That doesn't suddenly mean Blade is scaling above Musclemass because Musclemass is explicitly doubling Alex's physicals, Alex is limited to combat techniques and defensive powers, he lacks the extra capabilities that would come with something like Blade's extra piercing, Hammerfist's AoE, Whipfist's range, etc. But his general physical strength is what is improved.

I mentioned Whipfist since it has better Crowd Control then the Hammerfist which already negates your point.

How does Whipfist having range discount Hammerfist having heavy AoE strikes? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You know what, I don't care anymore but it should still be noted that his AP is Higher with his powers since they make his Normal Attacks look like a Joke, even when they're Charged up.

 

[RisingIons]

What I'm not understanding is why he's being given LS for an AP calculation in which we don't even see how the events transpired, if he busted through it with strength, he's 9-A, but that doesn't immediately qualify him for Class M.

Also disagree with that kind of scaling for the Alex's transformations, Musclemass explicitly increases strength twofold, when not using it he ends up weaker, the other transformations excel in different ways but aren't any better than the other.

Because our lifting/striking strength values are based on force and this is a force feat.

It isn’t really a deal of physics, it’s a deal of what the game says.

Logically one would think because it’s all the same biomass on Alex, he’s just applying it in different ways to get different results. However if it were that simple, there would be no difference between any of his power potency other than surface area. Slashing at the side of a tank with a blade would not yield you better results than slamming a tank with overwhelmingly crushing force, realistically.

 

[Abstractions]

Logically one would think because it’s all the same biomass on Alex, he’s just applying it in different ways to get different results. However if it were that simple, there would be no difference between any of his power potency other than surface area. Slashing at the side of a tank with a blade would not yield you better results than slamming a tank with overwhelmingly crushing force, realistically.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, because different applications perform different things, such as abusing the weight and mass at then end of his Hammerfists to perform the Hammertoss. They pack different power because of where the mass is concentrated, a singular large blade vs. two smaller claws. The fact Musclemass exists to boost his strength twofold but have him not perform in other categories is due to where the things are concentrated, the whole body benefits from Musclemass, one arm benefits from Blade and Whipfist but the difference between these two is now the mass is stretched thinner for range, making its applications much different.

We could look at it further by bringing Shield and Armor into the equation. Shield is concentrated in front of you and protects you completely, Armor protects you all around but doesn't deflect damage the same way Shield does.

Different powers just excel at different things.

 

[RisingIons]

But if it were that simple then we can both agree hammerfist by far uses the most biomass because of how hunched over it leaves Alex and the fact that it causes craters and shockwaves with every blow. Blade uses far less biomass over a far smaller surface area yet is capable of doing far more damage.

Similar to what you said about the Armor and shield example. Armor is so heavy you lose mobility and reduce damage yet shield is much lighter than armor since you have complete mobility yet nullify damage entirely.

Less biomass = less power which is generally the rule in the verse, which is often contradicted.

 

[Abstractions]

But if it were that simple then we can both agree hammerfist by far uses the most biomass because of how hunched over it leaves Alex and the fact that it causes craters and shockwaves with every blow. Blade uses far less biomass over a far smaller surface area yet is capable of doing far more damage.

Hammerfist works in an AoE and blunt force to work through armor, Blade operates through slashing and piercing, it working just as effectively if not more is a byproduct of this.

Similar to what you said about the Armor and shield example. Armor is so heavy you lose mobility and reduce damage yet shield is much lighter than armor since you have complete mobility yet nullify damage entirely.

Armor uses more biomass because it is stretched over a wider area, thus hindering mobility, Shield is concentrated biomass to your arm, making it more effective against frontal fire but weaker all around.

This in principle applies to the attack powers the same way, Musclemass doubles physicals but may not have the same niche effectiveness as Blade due to lacking piercing, or Hammerfist for its concentrated stopping power, or Whip for its range, and so on. Musclemass is your Armor, the others are like Shield.

 

[RisingIons]

Hammerfist works in an AoE and blunt force to work through armor, Blade operates through slashing and piercing, it working just as effectively if not more is a byproduct of this.

So like I said hammerfist’s method of execution is through sheer abundance of biomass which we can both agree with. It’s mechanism is basically massive weight + extreme hardness + power. Blade uses very small surface area for its method of application, however, you can only really compare the two if they both share a similar amount of biomass, which we see hammerfist uses the most of out of any power.

Armor uses more biomass because it is stretched over a wider area, thus hindering mobility, Shield is concentrated biomass to your arm, making it more effective against frontal fire but weaker all around.

This in principle applies to the attack powers the same way, Musclemass doubles physicals but may not have the same niche effectiveness as Blade due to lacking piercing, or Hammerfist for its concentrated stopping power, or Whip for its range, and so on. Musclemass is your Armor, the others are like Shield.

Agree with your first paragraph, we haven’t really disagreed on this. This is why armor has monstrous footsteps and can shoulder check multiple ton vehicles, because all that biomass is extremely heavy.

However on that front, it would make no sense for the shield to be as light as it is yet be capable of completely nullifying high-yield attacks, yet be far, far lighter than armor and likely Mercer himself. This is evidence that the shield uses a fraction of the biomass that armor uses, yet is much better defensively. If the shield used a comparable amount of biomass as the armor, Mercer would be very top-heavy and his mobility would still be poor.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So like I said hammerfist’s method of execution is through sheer abundance of biomass which we can both agree with. It’s mechanism is basically massive weight + extreme hardness + power. Blade uses very small surface area for its method of application, however, you can only really compare the two if they both share a similar amount of biomass, which we see hammerfist uses the most of out of any power.



Agree with your first paragraph, we haven’t really disagreed on this. This is why armor has monstrous footsteps and can shoulder check multiple ton vehicles, because all that biomass is extremely heavy.

However on that front, it would make no sense for the shield to be as light as it is yet be capable of completely nullifying high-yield attacks, yet be far, far lighter than armor and likely Mercer himself. This is evidence that the shield uses a fraction of the biomass that armor uses, yet is much better defensively. If the shield used a comparable amount of biomass as the armor, Mercer would be very top-heavy and his mobility would still be poor.

I'm still not sure why he can't just stack all of these at once considering he has enough Biomass to make a Multi-Kilometer Tendril Barrage.

 

[Abstractions]

So like I said hammerfist’s method of execution is through sheer abundance of biomass which we can both agree with. It’s mechanism is basically massive weight + extreme hardness + power. Blade uses very small surface area for its method of application, however, you can only really compare the two if they both share a similar amount of biomass, which we see hammerfist uses the most of out of any power.

Yes, but the point there being the method of application is where the power excels, but linearly scaling them about Musclemass doesn't work for me because the other attack powers don't operate on the same 2x all around boost to physicals, just a different method of application.

However on that front, it would make no sense for the shield to be as light as it is yet be capable of completely nullifying high-yield attacks, yet be far, far lighter than armor and likely Mercer himself. This is evidence that the shield uses a fraction of the biomass that armor uses, yet is much better defensively. If the shield used a comparable amount of biomass as the armor, Mercer would be very top-heavy and his mobility would still be poor.

It using less is rather self-explanatory, it's just where it is all applied is different, making it more effective in one way vs. the other that offers all around protection at the cost of not being completely immune to damage.

I am fine with attack powers being strong, but I don't want them to exist in a scaling chain with a power that is strictly a 2x boost, because the implication that then these things are also above a 2x boost would be disingenuous with how they work, as they rely on their niche to perform vs. a flat strength boost with no attack power benefit.

"8-A, higher with (attack powers here), X via Musclemass" would be more preferred in my eyes, and where you consider Devastators to be doesn't matter to me.

 

[RisingIons]

It using less is rather self-explanatory, it's just where it is all applied is different, making it more effective in one way vs. the other that offers all around protection at the cost of not being completely immune to damage.

I am fine with attack powers being strong, but I don't want them to exist in a scaling chain with a power that is strictly a 2x boost, because the implication that then these things are also above a 2x boost would be disingenuous with how they work, as they rely on their niche to perform vs. a flat strength boost with no attack power benefit.

"8-A, higher with (attack powers here), X via Musclemass" would be more preferred in my eyes, and where you consider Devastators are doesn't matter to me.

What I’m saying is less biomass = less power. Agreed, smaller surface area such as a blade ability makes it easier to pierce and slash hard targets, however you still need a hefty amount of biomass for it to be sufficiently powerful, which is why claws (excluding groundspike) and whipfist are among the weakest of powers, even weaker than musclemass accounting for their ability to pierce and stab.

The blade being stronger than musclemass for example doesn’t mean Alex is all-around a higher tier, just his arm with the blade hits harder than anything else. His kicks and punch with the other arm are still base strength.

Also, we are shown that Mercer can dual-wield powers, such as when he dual-wields claws and blade. It would be weird for him to be splitting two tiers at the same time. If he used muscle mass and blade only one arm wouldn’t be tier 7? Or would musclemass still apply to the whole body but blade would just be more damaging?

 

[Abstractions]

Or would musclemass still apply to the whole body but blade would just be more damaging?

It would work this way, as Musclemass is distributed throughout the body, as it makes even things like Shield and Armor (in terms of strength application, like rams) more effective.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Heller's 8-C key should be 8-B. It mentions in the blog that he can take thermobaric rockets. Same thing with Giliaths.

Soooo… can I make the changes?

 

[RisingIons]

It would work this way, as Musclemass is distributed throughout the body, as it makes even things like Shield and Armor (in terms of strength application, like rams) more effective.

So are you saying all abilities would be empowered by musclemass and the damage determines on the application of the power? Or are you agreeing with what’s already established? Because as far as wording goes that would sound like what we already have.

 

[Abstractions]

So are you saying all abilities would be empowered by musclemass and the damage determines on the application of the power?

If you can use two at once then this would mean Musclemass would empower other abilities, yes.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Mercer can dual-wield his Shapeshifting powers as shown in the cinematic opening, yes.

 

[RisingIons]

Someone make the edits based on this new conclusion

 

[DeathNoodles]

Which one?

"8-A, higher with (attack powers here), X via Musclemass"

This?
Because I can easily do that, along with adding a tidbit in it where one of the Offensive Powers can be dual-wielded with Musclemass, although I consider Devastators having higher damage output than Musclemass by itself as it was consistently portrayed to be the strongest attacks in the game as it was meant to.