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Time to fulfil my one activity per three months quota or whatever.
We're long past the days of Lobotomy Corporation being the media in this franchise. Ruina, Distortion Detective, Wonderlab, and now Limbus Company are all things now, and we're going to use them to clean up the ratings a bit. Basically none of this thread is new information among the people who talk about this franchise, but instead it's us actually organizing it in one place.
The old ratings are not the greatest. AP and speed both came from weird burrowing instances, which aren't really defended by anybody working on this verse anymore. The new ones are better. With the exception of the god tier stuff (to be addressed with a separate thread, as no profiles for those exist at the moment) and the lowest tier stuff, the verse will mostly be two tiers: 9-A and 8-B.
9-A comes from how combatants at the part of Ruina where Yesod's floor is unlocked can shatter an armored van by moving too quickly near it. Thus, even the weakest person who scales to this is significantly upscaling from our car fragmentation default calculation.
8-B comes from The Firebird outputting this much energy by existing. Before you do the me thing and get on my case for this being a heat feat, consider the following: Abnormalities within Lobotomy Corporation are classified according not only to their threat level but also to their energy output, as Lobotomy Corporation is an energy company who exists to harvest energy from said abnos. Firebird does this passively, in a state where its energy is not being collected. As such, even if an abnormality in such a category wasn't a heat manipulator it should still be able to output similar energy when actually exerting itself as Firebird can by doing literally nothing. It wouldn't be in that category of energy production if it could not. In addition, there's support for such a rating. Listed below are some examples and why they're not the primary resource.
This does not account for weird edge cases like Punishing Bird, Yujin, or the 2nd fight with Miris. This CRT is designed to set standards. Characters who need individual attention will get it, but they should not be used to derail this thread.
As for proposed scaling, the below table would all be 8-B or At Least 8-B.
The below table is a little weird, and we get splitters between 9-A and 8-B.
Finally, the table for tier 9s.
As for speed, Proselytes and up get massively hypersonic via this feat. This corresponds basically to all the 8-Bs, plus Proselytes themselves. Below this, supersonic off less crazy bullet deflections and dodges, though someone may end up posting a hypersonic calc on this thread if they feel like it. As far as augmented characters go, things bottom out at subsonic, scaling to Yun's quick movement and Eri's comments about skipping over city blocks being standard fare. Finn bottoms out at peak human I guess.
Now, the bits that are still contentious, with hopefully neutral summaries of the points for and against the issues at play:
We're long past the days of Lobotomy Corporation being the media in this franchise. Ruina, Distortion Detective, Wonderlab, and now Limbus Company are all things now, and we're going to use them to clean up the ratings a bit. Basically none of this thread is new information among the people who talk about this franchise, but instead it's us actually organizing it in one place.
The old ratings are not the greatest. AP and speed both came from weird burrowing instances, which aren't really defended by anybody working on this verse anymore. The new ones are better. With the exception of the god tier stuff (to be addressed with a separate thread, as no profiles for those exist at the moment) and the lowest tier stuff, the verse will mostly be two tiers: 9-A and 8-B.
9-A comes from how combatants at the part of Ruina where Yesod's floor is unlocked can shatter an armored van by moving too quickly near it. Thus, even the weakest person who scales to this is significantly upscaling from our car fragmentation default calculation.
8-B comes from The Firebird outputting this much energy by existing. Before you do the me thing and get on my case for this being a heat feat, consider the following: Abnormalities within Lobotomy Corporation are classified according not only to their threat level but also to their energy output, as Lobotomy Corporation is an energy company who exists to harvest energy from said abnos. Firebird does this passively, in a state where its energy is not being collected. As such, even if an abnormality in such a category wasn't a heat manipulator it should still be able to output similar energy when actually exerting itself as Firebird can by doing literally nothing. It wouldn't be in that category of energy production if it could not. In addition, there's support for such a rating. Listed below are some examples and why they're not the primary resource.
- Pianist mass destruction (1, 2), not used because it's a pain in the ass to calc, really.
- Crying Children mass destruction, also not used because it's annoying to calc.
- Xiao's heat feats, not used because they're heat feats anyways and are more difficult to calc than Firebird.
- Zena's shockwave, not used because Zena is one of the strongest characters we've seen so far and as such this would scale to like eight people. It was casually calced at 8-B, someone might end up posting that calc during this thread if it's found.
- Vespa not wanting to just superjump to escape Sweepers because it'll destroy nearby houses and that's illegal. No link this time because I don't remember what chapter it's in. Not used for that reason, for being a rough calc, and for not scaling to that many people because Vespa is really strong.
This does not account for weird edge cases like Punishing Bird, Yujin, or the 2nd fight with Miris. This CRT is designed to set standards. Characters who need individual attention will get it, but they should not be used to derail this thread.
As for proposed scaling, the below table would all be 8-B or At Least 8-B.
Abnormality Level | Fixer Grade | Equivalent Others | Base Feat(s) | Reason to Scale |
---|---|---|---|---|
"Super ALEPH" (WhiteNight, Apocalypse Bird) | Color (kinda) | Arbiter (kinda) | Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Xiao heat feats, Zena shockwave, Vespa's jump | WhiteNight and Apocalypse Bird upscale from everything, needing entire teams of endgame combatants to take them down. WhiteNight unavoidably one shots everyone besides the Patron Librarian in its fight, which is at a stage of the game that this can include Color Fixers. However, Gebura and Binah are treated similarly for their boss battles in Lobotomy Corporation. |
ALEPH | Color, the strongest 1s (EGO Xiao, Siegfried, Olivier) | Arbiter, Claw, the strongest Distortions | Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Xiao heat feats, Zena shockwave, Vespa's jump | Roland one shots the Pianist, who is either the weakest ALEPH or the strongest WAW and either way is much stronger than Firebird. Phillip is part of this group in a stronger form than he was in as the Crying Children. Xiao is part of this group. Zena is part of this group. |
WAW-ALEPH | Certain 1s | R Corp Captains, Proxies, Sottocapos, Maestros, strong Distortions | Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Vespa's jump | Downscaling from stronger people. Pianist is part of this group. Significantly stronger than ordinary R Corp soldiers. Vespa is part of this group. |
WAW | 1 | Higher end R Corp soldiers, Messengers, Capos, Docents, some Distortions, named Star of the City general invitation characters | Firebird's heat, Crying Children mass destruction | Fixers of a lower grade were able to combat The Crying Children. Rabbits are capable of taking down WAW abnormalities with regularity, and have been shown doing so in Wonderlab. |
WAW | 2 | R Corp soldiers, some Distortions | Firebird's heat | Rabbits are capable of taking down WAW abnormalities with regularity, and have been shown doing so in Wonderlab. Rabbits are probably not all Grade 1 Fixer equivalents. |
The below table is a little weird, and we get splitters between 9-A and 8-B.
Abnormality Level | Fixer Grade | Equivalent Others | Base Feat(s) | Reason to Scale |
---|---|---|---|---|
HE | 3 | None | Firebird's heat, Van Destruction | Grade 3 fixers are a little weird. Salvador and Oscar are fought at a point in time of the game where the majority of combatants are still in the more clearly 9-A range, however they're noted to both be past their primes. Ezra and Mei have been shown fighting alongside those of higher grade and even against those of higher grade, but Ezra has extremely rare proprietary augmentations and partial EGO while Mei might just be way above the curve for a 3, as the fixer grading system isn't perfect. As such, someone tiered specifically from being a grade 3 fixer will be "At least 9-A, Likely 8-B" and the aforementioned fixers with more specific plights will be rated accordingly. HE abnormalities have contention about their rating which will be elaborated further on later. |
Finally, the table for tier 9s.
Abnormality Level | Fixer Grade | Equivalent Others | Base Feat(s) | Reason to Scale |
---|---|---|---|---|
TETH | 4-7 | Basically everything else | Van Destruction | Grade 7s are the very next encounter after unlocking Yesod's floor, which is where the van destruction feat takes place. Everyone from there who's not an 8-B is upscaling. TETH abnormalities and TETH EGO have been defeated by 9-As in Limbus Company, but over a prolonged period of time, through attrition, and with a numbers advantage on behalf of the non abnormality. |
N/A | 8-9 | Weak syndicates, Rats | Van Destruction (splitter) | Grade 9 and 8 keypages are probably what you're using for the first fight right after unlocking Yesod, and they can still smash the van. "Hook office Remnants" is a fight available after Yesod's floor unlocks, and the named characters of the Hook Office are grade 8s and 9s, probably not weaker than their remnant. However, not everyone down here would be that strong, especially the explicitly unaugmented Finn. As such, grade 9s and 8s without further elaboration will be "At least 9-C, possibly 9-A," with the lower end coming from everyone but Finn being explicitly superhuman, and Finn still being a grade 9 fixer and as such being equipped to defeat multiple Rats (violent homeless people) at once. ZAIYN Abnormalities are too weird for a unified tier and all will be rated on a case by case basis. |
As for speed, Proselytes and up get massively hypersonic via this feat. This corresponds basically to all the 8-Bs, plus Proselytes themselves. Below this, supersonic off less crazy bullet deflections and dodges, though someone may end up posting a hypersonic calc on this thread if they feel like it. As far as augmented characters go, things bottom out at subsonic, scaling to Yun's quick movement and Eri's comments about skipping over city blocks being standard fare. Finn bottoms out at peak human I guess.
Now, the bits that are still contentious, with hopefully neutral summaries of the points for and against the issues at play:
- Hypersonic for the supersonics. Really just pending a calc.
- R Corp's lowest end. Basically, whether the generic page for the Rabbit Team (which I will tune up when I post the R Corp Captains) should be flat 8-B or split between 9-A and 8-B.
- Pro Splitter: R Corp identities appear in the very early game in Limbus company, at which point it would make no sense for them to be 8-B. These are also noted to be guys with very few cycles of the clone learning, and R Corp was hurt by the events of Library of Ruina which can explain the lower showings.
- Anti Splitter: R Corp is specifically identified as an elite fighting force by the W Corp Cleanup Crew, which is beyond the weaker grade 3s and every grade 4 in Ruina. One of them, Lesti, even looks upon the Rabbits with wonder in her keypage. They're lategame enemies in Ruina and lategame allies in Lobotomy Corporation, and even the random ones in Wonderlab shredded a WAW. Every Rabbit we see is either fit to gun down WAWs or fight alongside Myo, and the Rhinos as a whole were not deployed to Lobotomy Corporation due to being too destructive. That wouldn't work for 9-As.
- My personal opinion is to make them a splitter, but to emphasize that the majority of them are going to be on the higher end of that split and that unless context indicates otherwise, random rabbits should be assumed to be more in line with the higher end for the purposes of scaling.
- HE Abnormalities, and whether the ones not fought in Star of the City should be splitters or not.
- Pro Splitter: Most of the HEs aren't fought by the point in Ruina where you'd have 8-Bs, and by the time you have employees in Lobotomy that are capable of dealing well with WAWs they won't struggle much against normal HEs either. Scaling characters to flat 8-B despite them having no feats besides being defeated by 9-As while weakened to an unknown extent is too speculative, and acknowledging the potential low ends in giving them the split rating of "at least 9-A, likely/possibly 8-B" is more appropriate to account both for what is explicitly displayed and what may be inferred from context. The HEs fought in Star of the City should be 8-B no matter what though.
- Anti Splitter: The anti feat for scaling is from people who massively upscale from said 9-A feat to begin with, and the HEs who both sides agree are unambiguously 8-B are not portrayed as anything different to the rest of them. The weakest HE by energy production output has an instant kill attack that works on anyone who it gets its clutches on. The game in general does not portray an enormous gap between the threat levels, evidenced by how there's not enough ALEPH gear to go around to outfit a group big enough to take on Apocalypse Bird or WhiteNight with meaning that you're expected to at least partially use WAW gear against the "Super ALEPHs."
- My personal opinion is in favor of making them splitters for safety's sake. It's not like 8-B isn't being represented at all, it's just saying that the ones without a direct feat can potentially be lower. However, if they are all made uniform 8-B, this should not be used to backscale the early game characters in Ruina due to the unspecified weakening afflicting Abnormalities at this point of the story.
- Uncontroversial:
- WAW/Grade 2 and up to 8-B off the new feats
- Proselytes and up to MHS off the new feats
- Grade 3 fixers as splitters
- TETH/Grades 4-7 to 9-A off van destruction
- Grades 8-9 to 9-C/9-A splitters
- Below proselytes to the bullet people as supersonic (pending calc)
- Below the bullet people as subsonic
- Finn to peak human
- Controversial:
- R Corp as splitters or solid 8-Bs
- HE abnormalities as splitters or solid 8-Bs
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