Project Moon Statistics Update

[Wokistan]

Time to fulfil my one activity per three months quota or whatever.
We're long past the days of Lobotomy Corporation being the media in this franchise. Ruina, Distortion Detective, Wonderlab, and now Limbus Company are all things now, and we're going to use them to clean up the ratings a bit. Basically none of this thread is new information among the people who talk about this franchise, but instead it's us actually organizing it in one place.

The old ratings are not the greatest. AP and speed both came from weird burrowing instances, which aren't really defended by anybody working on this verse anymore. The new ones are better. With the exception of the god tier stuff (to be addressed with a separate thread, as no profiles for those exist at the moment) and the lowest tier stuff, the verse will mostly be two tiers: 9-A and 8-B.

9-A comes from how combatants at the part of Ruina where Yesod's floor is unlocked can shatter an armored van by moving too quickly near it. Thus, even the weakest person who scales to this is significantly upscaling from our car fragmentation default calculation.

8-B comes from The Firebird outputting this much energy by existing. Before you do the me thing and get on my case for this being a heat feat, consider the following: Abnormalities within Lobotomy Corporation are classified according not only to their threat level but also to their energy output, as Lobotomy Corporation is an energy company who exists to harvest energy from said abnos. Firebird does this passively, in a state where its energy is not being collected. As such, even if an abnormality in such a category wasn't a heat manipulator it should still be able to output similar energy when actually exerting itself as Firebird can by doing literally nothing. It wouldn't be in that category of energy production if it could not. In addition, there's support for such a rating. Listed below are some examples and why they're not the primary resource.

• Pianist mass destruction (1, 2), not used because it's a pain in the ass to calc, really.
• Crying Children mass destruction, also not used because it's annoying to calc.
• Xiao's heat feats, not used because they're heat feats anyways and are more difficult to calc than Firebird.
• Zena's shockwave, not used because Zena is one of the strongest characters we've seen so far and as such this would scale to like eight people. It was casually calced at 8-B, someone might end up posting that calc during this thread if it's found.
• Vespa not wanting to just superjump to escape Sweepers because it'll destroy nearby houses and that's illegal. No link this time because I don't remember what chapter it's in. Not used for that reason, for being a rough calc, and for not scaling to that many people because Vespa is really strong.

Regardless, these less formal examples are all pretty clearly still within this ballpark and should make it clear that Firebird's rating isn't just a fluke as opposed to things of this category just really being that strong.

This does not account for weird edge cases like Punishing Bird, Yujin, or the 2nd fight with Miris. This CRT is designed to set standards. Characters who need individual attention will get it, but they should not be used to derail this thread.

As for proposed scaling, the below table would all be 8-B or At Least 8-B.

Abnormality Level	Fixer Grade	Equivalent Others	Base Feat(s)	Reason to Scale
"Super ALEPH" (WhiteNight, Apocalypse Bird)	Color (kinda)	Arbiter (kinda)	Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Xiao heat feats, Zena shockwave, Vespa's jump	WhiteNight and Apocalypse Bird upscale from everything, needing entire teams of endgame combatants to take them down. WhiteNight unavoidably one shots everyone besides the Patron Librarian in its fight, which is at a stage of the game that this can include Color Fixers. However, Gebura and Binah are treated similarly for their boss battles in Lobotomy Corporation.
ALEPH	Color, the strongest 1s (EGO Xiao, Siegfried, Olivier)	Arbiter, Claw, the strongest Distortions	Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Xiao heat feats, Zena shockwave, Vespa's jump	Roland one shots the Pianist, who is either the weakest ALEPH or the strongest WAW and either way is much stronger than Firebird. Phillip is part of this group in a stronger form than he was in as the Crying Children. Xiao is part of this group. Zena is part of this group.
WAW-ALEPH	Certain 1s	R Corp Captains, Proxies, Sottocapos, Maestros, strong Distortions	Firebird's heat, Pianist Mass Destruction, Crying Children mass destruction, Vespa's jump	Downscaling from stronger people. Pianist is part of this group. Significantly stronger than ordinary R Corp soldiers. Vespa is part of this group.
WAW	1	Higher end R Corp soldiers, Messengers, Capos, Docents, some Distortions, named Star of the City general invitation characters	Firebird's heat, Crying Children mass destruction	Fixers of a lower grade were able to combat The Crying Children. Rabbits are capable of taking down WAW abnormalities with regularity, and have been shown doing so in Wonderlab.
WAW	2	R Corp soldiers, some Distortions	Firebird's heat	Rabbits are capable of taking down WAW abnormalities with regularity, and have been shown doing so in Wonderlab. Rabbits are probably not all Grade 1 Fixer equivalents.

The below table is a little weird, and we get splitters between 9-A and 8-B.

Abnormality Level	Fixer Grade	Equivalent Others	Base Feat(s)	Reason to Scale
HE	3	None	Firebird's heat, Van Destruction	Grade 3 fixers are a little weird. Salvador and Oscar are fought at a point in time of the game where the majority of combatants are still in the more clearly 9-A range, however they're noted to both be past their primes. Ezra and Mei have been shown fighting alongside those of higher grade and even against those of higher grade, but Ezra has extremely rare proprietary augmentations and partial EGO while Mei might just be way above the curve for a 3, as the fixer grading system isn't perfect. As such, someone tiered specifically from being a grade 3 fixer will be "At least 9-A, Likely 8-B" and the aforementioned fixers with more specific plights will be rated accordingly. HE abnormalities have contention about their rating which will be elaborated further on later.

Finally, the table for tier 9s.

Abnormality Level	Fixer Grade	Equivalent Others	Base Feat(s)	Reason to Scale
TETH	4-7	Basically everything else	Van Destruction	Grade 7s are the very next encounter after unlocking Yesod's floor, which is where the van destruction feat takes place. Everyone from there who's not an 8-B is upscaling. TETH abnormalities and TETH EGO have been defeated by 9-As in Limbus Company, but over a prolonged period of time, through attrition, and with a numbers advantage on behalf of the non abnormality.
N/A	8-9	Weak syndicates, Rats	Van Destruction (splitter)	Grade 9 and 8 keypages are probably what you're using for the first fight right after unlocking Yesod, and they can still smash the van. "Hook office Remnants" is a fight available after Yesod's floor unlocks, and the named characters of the Hook Office are grade 8s and 9s, probably not weaker than their remnant. However, not everyone down here would be that strong, especially the explicitly unaugmented Finn. As such, grade 9s and 8s without further elaboration will be "At least 9-C, possibly 9-A," with the lower end coming from everyone but Finn being explicitly superhuman, and Finn still being a grade 9 fixer and as such being equipped to defeat multiple Rats (violent homeless people) at once. ZAIYN Abnormalities are too weird for a unified tier and all will be rated on a case by case basis.

As for speed, Proselytes and up get massively hypersonic via this feat. This corresponds basically to all the 8-Bs, plus Proselytes themselves. Below this, supersonic off less crazy bullet deflections and dodges, though someone may end up posting a hypersonic calc on this thread if they feel like it. As far as augmented characters go, things bottom out at subsonic, scaling to Yun's quick movement and Eri's comments about skipping over city blocks being standard fare. Finn bottoms out at peak human I guess.

Now, the bits that are still contentious, with hopefully neutral summaries of the points for and against the issues at play:

• Hypersonic for the supersonics. Really just pending a calc.
• R Corp's lowest end. Basically, whether the generic page for the Rabbit Team (which I will tune up when I post the R Corp Captains) should be flat 8-B or split between 9-A and 8-B.
  • Pro Splitter: R Corp identities appear in the very early game in Limbus company, at which point it would make no sense for them to be 8-B. These are also noted to be guys with very few cycles of the clone learning, and R Corp was hurt by the events of Library of Ruina which can explain the lower showings.
  • Anti Splitter: R Corp is specifically identified as an elite fighting force by the W Corp Cleanup Crew, which is beyond the weaker grade 3s and every grade 4 in Ruina. One of them, Lesti, even looks upon the Rabbits with wonder in her keypage. They're lategame enemies in Ruina and lategame allies in Lobotomy Corporation, and even the random ones in Wonderlab shredded a WAW. Every Rabbit we see is either fit to gun down WAWs or fight alongside Myo, and the Rhinos as a whole were not deployed to Lobotomy Corporation due to being too destructive. That wouldn't work for 9-As.
  • My personal opinion is to make them a splitter, but to emphasize that the majority of them are going to be on the higher end of that split and that unless context indicates otherwise, random rabbits should be assumed to be more in line with the higher end for the purposes of scaling.
• HE Abnormalities, and whether the ones not fought in Star of the City should be splitters or not.
  • Pro Splitter: Most of the HEs aren't fought by the point in Ruina where you'd have 8-Bs, and by the time you have employees in Lobotomy that are capable of dealing well with WAWs they won't struggle much against normal HEs either. Scaling characters to flat 8-B despite them having no feats besides being defeated by 9-As while weakened to an unknown extent is too speculative, and acknowledging the potential low ends in giving them the split rating of "at least 9-A, likely/possibly 8-B" is more appropriate to account both for what is explicitly displayed and what may be inferred from context. The HEs fought in Star of the City should be 8-B no matter what though.
  • Anti Splitter: The anti feat for scaling is from people who massively upscale from said 9-A feat to begin with, and the HEs who both sides agree are unambiguously 8-B are not portrayed as anything different to the rest of them. The weakest HE by energy production output has an instant kill attack that works on anyone who it gets its clutches on. The game in general does not portray an enormous gap between the threat levels, evidenced by how there's not enough ALEPH gear to go around to outfit a group big enough to take on Apocalypse Bird or WhiteNight with meaning that you're expected to at least partially use WAW gear against the "Super ALEPHs."
  • My personal opinion is in favor of making them splitters for safety's sake. It's not like 8-B isn't being represented at all, it's just saying that the ones without a direct feat can potentially be lower. However, if they are all made uniform 8-B, this should not be used to backscale the early game characters in Ruina due to the unspecified weakening afflicting Abnormalities at this point of the story.

In summary of this thread:

• Uncontroversial:
  • WAW/Grade 2 and up to 8-B off the new feats
  • Proselytes and up to MHS off the new feats
  • Grade 3 fixers as splitters
  • TETH/Grades 4-7 to 9-A off van destruction
  • Grades 8-9 to 9-C/9-A splitters
  • Below proselytes to the bullet people as supersonic (pending calc)
  • Below the bullet people as subsonic
  • Finn to peak human
• Controversial:
  • R Corp as splitters or solid 8-Bs
  • HE abnormalities as splitters or solid 8-Bs

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Very good, very nice. Yes.

Imo HE Abnos should be splitters but R Corp should stay as it is for now because it's still very early in the Limbussy timeline to tell. They'll surely appear later, and I'd want to see what the game has to say more regarding that when we get there.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

I am in favor of not splitting HEs. R Corp can probably be left unsplit until we find out more.
Everything seems fine otherwise.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No point in having a key for 9-A R Corpers or anything. They only "appear" as an ID in Limbus, which don't always match the current power level of the game (such as a Grade 8 person being usable this late into the game). It's too speculative and pretty pointless to include them, especially as they just don't show up physically in the game yet.

Regarding the Abnos, the gap in power between Abnormalities is clearly not that large. We have WAWs fighting ALEPHs during Tiphereth's Realization in Ruina, we have HE weapons being used to fight WAWs in WonderLab, we have weakened HEs fighting people in Star of the City (not particularly strong HEs at that), we have multiple WAW ordeals using HEs and TETHs to fight you in the late game, we have WAW employees being more or less required to fight the end-game ALEPH bosses, etc.

Honestly considering some WonderLab stuff (such as a ZAYIN and TETH weapon being used to fight WAWs) and the fact that the gap between Abnormalities in-game is clearly not that large, I'd probably straight up prefer if all Abnormalities scaled to the same thing. But at the very least the HEs should scale to 8-B. There is literally no reasons to consider Road Home and Snow Queen that much stronger than the other HEs (especially since Road Home is part of a group of Abnos with two other HEs fought much earlier).


Also not on this thread but once we do this we should really rename the verse to "Project Moon". Since clearly this verse is not just Lobotomy anymore.

 

[Wokistan]

I can rename the verse whenever, and there was an old thread that concluded that should be done and then it just didn't happen lol

I'll do it whenever I post Myo, which I'll be able to do once I finish her resistances and once this thread is done. I could bang out her resistances within like a day at worst if I really wanted to, so this thread will probably just be the limiting factor there.

 

[deonment]

Nice, I agree with everything uncontroversial.
For the stuff the stuff that is controversial I think HEs and R Corp shouldn't be split.

 

[Armorchompy]

9-A comes from how combatants at the part of Ruina where Yesod's floor is unlocked can shatter an armored van by moving too quickly near it. Thus, even the weakest person who scales to this is significantly upscaling from our car fragmentation default calculation.

I feel like even without looking into the armor proper you should be capable of upscaling the calculation using the average mass of an armored van, that should give a more accurate result. The car fragmentation calc is a pretty big lowball here.

8-B comes from The Firebird outputting this much energy by existing. Before you do the me thing and get on my case for this being a heat feat, consider the following: Abnormalities within Lobotomy Corporation are classified according not only to their threat level but also to their energy output, as Lobotomy Corporation is an energy company who exists to harvest energy from said abnos. Firebird does this passively, in a state where its energy is not being collected. As such, even if an abnormality in such a category wasn't a heat manipulator it should still be able to output similar energy when actually exerting itself as Firebird can by doing literally nothing. It wouldn't be in that category of energy production if it could not. In addition, there's support for such a rating. Listed below are some examples and why they're not the primary resource.

That seems very reasonable. I cannot really comment on the scaling.

 

[Tyranno223]

No point in having a key for 9-A R Corpers or anything. They only "appear" as an ID in Limbus, which don't always match the current power level of the game (such as a Grade 8 person being usable this late into the game). It's too speculative and pretty pointless to include them, especially as they just don't show up physically in the game yet.

Regarding the Abnos, the gap in power between Abnormalities is clearly not that large. We have WAWs fighting ALEPHs during Tiphereth's Realization in Ruina, we have HE weapons being used to fight WAWs in WonderLab, we have weakened HEs fighting people in Star of the City (not particularly strong HEs at that), we have multiple WAW ordeals using HEs and TETHs to fight you in the late game, we have WAW employees being more or less required to fight the end-game ALEPH bosses, etc.

Honestly considering some WonderLab stuff (such as a ZAYIN and TETH weapon being used to fight WAWs) and the fact that the gap between Abnormalities in-game is clearly not that large, I'd probably straight up prefer if all Abnormalities scaled to the same thing. But at the very least the HEs should scale to 8-B. There is literally no reasons to consider Road Home and Snow Queen that much stronger than the other HEs (especially since Road Home is part of a group of Abnos with two other HEs fought much earlier).


Also not on this thread but once we do this we should really rename the verse to "Project Moon". Since clearly this verse is not just Lobotomy anymore.

It's worth noting that Wonderlab's canonocity is dubious right now.

 

[Wokistan]

There are a few print copies of Wonderlab that exist, and of course there's unauthorized archives I can find for you if you want. In this sense it's really just like any print media that's hard (but not impossible) to find on the internet. It's one thing to maybe shy away from the wonderlab exclusive characters for a little bit, but the characters who already existed like the rabbits or who ended up in a game like Servant of Wrath are ultimately just not Mimi's to control.

 

[Tyranno223]

There are a few print copies of Wonderlab that exist, and of course there's unauthorized archives I can find for you if you want. In this sense it's really just like any print media that's hard (but not impossible) to find on the internet. It's one thing to maybe shy away from the wonderlab exclusive characters for a little bit, but the characters who already existed like the rabbits or who ended up in a game like Servant of Wrath are ultimately just not Mimi's to control.

Yes but the author called for it to be removed. The abnos are the only things that remain. The canonocity of the events is questionable as PM can't use the events.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

It's in a dubious state of canon as of now. Probably shy away from using it as primary sources, but in terms of Rabbit scaling it really is just supporting what is already seen in-game, specially as Rabbits are categorized as WAW entities in the files.

 

[Wokistan]

Seems the required amount of time has passed and we'll be going ahead with these, while leaving HE abnormalities and the Rabbit Team as just 8-Bs. I'd recommend people use some form of this note on HE abnormality profiles which are in the early game:

"Note: Due to the weakening effects imposed on abnormalities by the qliphoth deterrence and the nature of The Library, HE abnormalities should not be backscaled to by earlier game combatants for the sole reason of having fought them under such a context."

Aside from that, this thread seems to have run its course. Itinnery for the next thread, whenever that happens, is to hash out the god tiers, figure out what to make of the last real fight in Ruina, and to get rid of "Unknown" for non red abnormalities not named Alruine.

 

[Armorchompy]

I feel like even without looking into the armor proper you should be capable of upscaling the calculation using the average mass of an armored van, that should give a more accurate result. The car fragmentation calc is a pretty big lowball here.

 

[Wokistan]

Crimson seems to be working on that at the moment

Also the verse page really needs to be totally restructured we did not futureproof this shit lol, that's not really a revision that needs a crt but it'll have to be revamped when someone can.

 

[Armorchompy]

Crimson seems to be working on that at the moment

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

yeah, so I calced a few things. Results were interesting.

Now, this should for sure scale to TETHs (who were probably already scaling to the Proselytes speed feat, more on that in a little bit), but the Sinners are the ones who do this feat, which is problematic.

This happened in Chapter 3, at which points Sinners are much, much stronger than they were in Chapter 1, where they can fight things that were blitzing and one-shotting Grade 8 Fixers, so this definitely doesn't scale to that level.

Given Sinners were fighting with Wing employees in this chapter and killing them by the dozens... well, they are also much, much weaker than TETHs at this point. So here's my proposal: bullet deflection starts happening around Urban Plague in Ruina. I'd say, we splinter the speed tiers there, with whatever speed the deflection is in there being their base, and the Limbus nail deflection being the upper "possibly" speed tier.

Sinners, when stronger than they were in this chapter, strong enough to be fighting and killing L3 Wing agents with difficulty (who are much more likely to scale to Wing agents you see in Ruina) still required all 12 of them to fight a TETH Abnormality for an extremely long period of time, with them dying and reviving several times before the Abnormality manages to die. From this, I'd say TETH Abnormalities are fair to scale to Proselytes, who are on the same tier as Wing agents in Ruina. So they would be MHS regardless.

 

[First_Witch]

Any PMoon head who worked on the new stuff;

Leviathan links are bad. You cant access Leviathan without a 18+ account, or link up with your google account. That stuff should be screenshotted instead.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Chiming in to say a while back we decided that there would be a "VS. Distorted Reveberation Ensemble" key/a note of 4-A when powered by the light so I thought I'd just bring that up here since ruina is being brought up.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

That's for whenever the second thread comes up to discuss.

 

[CurrySenpai]

That's for whenever the second thread comes up to discuss.

Well I mean TBF it's more or less been settled by a majority of the people who support the verse with some who disagreed with it even agreeing with the condition of "When powered by the light"

 

[CurrySenpai]

bump

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

For now we're mostly posting profiles... which does remind me I should finish mine, actually.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Bump, we need as much power from the PM supporters or you'll never roll Ahab Ishmael

 

[Tyranno223]

Bump, we need as much power from the PM supporters or you'll never roll Ahab Ishmael

Already used my boxes.

Have you tried contacting staff about this thread?

 

[CurrySenpai]

I should

 

[CurrySenpai]

I'm gonna ask some staff to look at this but also we shoudl REALLY finish Ruina profiles, like please.

 

[Mand21]

The jump from 9-C to 9-A on Grade 9 alone is quite funny ngl
We really should have something more like a gradient.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Yeah, but most verses operate on a gradient rather than strict discrete "power tiers" in the first place. Unfortunately, that's just not something that you can capture if you're quantifying in terms of semi-solid numbers.