Professor Paradox's Time stop immunity removal

[Greenshifter]

Also in let’s do the Time war again Feedback’s attack clashes with a time Beast’s time beam which as a consequence stops time. Paradox and Ben 10000 create a portal “shortly after” to stopped time to overview the situation. Both then proceed to move in stopped time. This is either due to Paradox’s time crystals resistance extending to Ben 10000 (without touching him) or it’s just a thing in Ben 10 where you can move in time stops as long as you don’t get affected by the “blast” or whatever that stops time.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah and Raiden from MK I guess also has the power to exist outside the universe while being in the universe due to claiming the same? You are the one putting together how since Paradox was at one point outside of time when he got his powers then that place has the unproven characteristics of resisting Time Manip and that when Paradox said to exist outside of time he meant to be simultaneously in time and outside it like he was before, only contracting how he still gets affected by Time Manip by way of giving that Time Manip a scale higher than normal Time Manip because it has no contradictions of it.

Or, "I exist outside of time! I'm still getting aged a lot of years by Time Manip but I won't die of it!" just means he's immortal with the first sentence being poetic or inaccurate about it, making the dialogue pretty much be "I can take this. Well, it is affecting me, but it will do nothing.".

Raiden probably isn't backed up by physically being shown to be outside of time though, Paradox is. You're assuming Paradox's state of existence changed despite one property of his supposed previous state of existence, not aging, didn't change. (Also this is no standard immortality since immortal beings in Ben 10 such as Sir George still age, they just won't die by natural causes, meanwhile Paradox doesn't age one bit meaning he is unaffected by the power rather than just not dying by it) Being outside of time = being timeless, that's not assuming unproven characteristics that's just how stuff that's timeless works, cause if it could be affected by time abilities it wouldn't be timeless. Paradox always used being outside of time literally in every instance that he mentions it and now he's suddenly using flowery language for no reason? Also you don't have to give the monster a higher scale of time manipulation, I'm fine with just treating it as an anti-statement but using logic on a feat and several statements that deal with a state of existence is still superior to a single anti-statement.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Little reminder that, aside from immortality, him being outside of time refers to his acausality, so it can't be used solely for resustance to time manipulation, unless the crystal thing there is legit.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh but I plan to remove his acausality, time loops work before the beginning of time in Ben 10 so I doubt he references an ability he doesn’t have. Especially when used in a context of being unaffected by a time manipulation ability such as aging someone to dust. And we also physically see him outside of time so I don’t see how you come to the conclusion of him referencing an ability.

 

[FRIMI]

well he seems to be unaffected by interacting with his "future self" in literally the first episode he appears in, so idk about removing acausality. (notably, ben interacting with his future self does actually affect him on several occasions consistently)

 

[Greenshifter]

That’s an alternate timeline self and it’s not proven that he’s unaffected. This’d be the same as giving Ben 23 acausality for interacting with Ben 10.

 

[FRIMI]

is it said that he's an alternate paradox? Because I had assumed that he had simply taken Ben Gwen and Kevin to the future

 

[Greenshifter]

Ben explicitly says "it's a parallel Paradox". That said ben-10-alien-force-season-3-episode-15-time-heals/ Was unchanged after Gwen changed the timeline (11:10). Guess acausality stays (he stated that undoing the experiment would undo him being trapped outside of time and getting his powers but it seems contradicted). Still doesn't matter in this thread tho.

 

[Greenshifter]

Chronaton particle (I called it time crystal cause why not, I'm also not sure on the spelling) resistance feats: and . Both seem to be time stops (Vilgax and Ben were stopped at the end). Unaffected by age manipulation and ben-10-omniverse-episode-73-lets-do-the-time-war-again 11:27 here Ben builds the time cycles and integrates the particle in them.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Oh but I plan to remove his acausality, time loops work before the beginning of time in Ben 10 so I doubt he references an ability he doesn’t have. Especially when used in a context of being unaffected by a time manipulation ability such as aging someone to dust. And we also physically see him outside of time so I don’t see how you come to the conclusion of him referencing an ability.

Except, as it has been said multiple times, he was affected, but he is immortal so nothing will happen, it was the same as stealing the energy of someone with infinite stamina.

 

[Greenshifter]

Immortal beings in Ben 10 still visibly age and he is immortal due to him existing outside of time since it was one of his "previous" properties. So let me rephrase it for you, if Paradox did not literally exist outside of time (Paradox also uses outside of time literally in every instance of him saying it) anymore then he would have been aged to death on the spot. Him just being randomly immortal without his previous state of existence being applicable is making an assumption which doesn't make much sense. As such his statement is contradicted by a feat and should be disregarded, as also said multiple times.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump

 

[Greenshifter]

Also as mentioned above the time cycles were completely unaffected by the time beast’s age manipulation and the immortality argument doesn’t work for them. So Paradox should have been unaffected by the extradimensional monster’s aging even without having any powers and just having his chrono navigator on him. So unless the extradimensional monster’s age manipulation is above baseline, it wouldn’t make any sense that he “can feel the eons pass”. And if the monster’s age manipulation is above baseline then there’s nothing stopping it from being so much above baseline than it can affect timeless beings such as Paradox.

 

[Greenshifter]

Bump, we have 1 staff and several members agreeing with a resistance to time stop and noting that only someone who can affect a timeless being can affect Paradox. Eficiente has yet to respond to my last few arguments and I don’t know if he will. Can this be applied?

 

[Greenshifter]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I think that immunity can be changed to resistance, yes.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right, I’ll edit the page and change it to resistance and as a description that he can only be affected by time manipulation that affects timeless beings then?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Should we contact Efi one last time or just do the change right away?

 

[Greenshifter]

I’m not against it. You can contact him if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente

Are you fine with such a change?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Sorry for the late reply, but Efi said this crt became too long for him with his time. I guess we can apply the changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is probably fine then.

 

[Greenshifter]

It is done. Can the Chrono Navigator also be given all time-based abilities that the Time Cycles have for using the same power source as discussed previously in this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

Please summarise the arguments for that.

Intuitively speaking, it seems inappropriate to give it abilities that it has not demonstrated though.

 

[Greenshifter]

Please summarise the arguments for that.

Intuitively speaking, it seems inappropriate to give it abilities that it has not demonstrated though.

The only time-related thing that the time cycles have is a chronaton particle. Which is the power source for the chrono navigator. Thus all time-related abilities and resistances that the time cycles have must come from the chronaton particle, thus the chrono navigator which is powered by chronaton particles should also get these abilities and resistances.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and what abilities would that be specifically?

 

[Greenshifter]

Age Manipulation, Resistance to Time Manipulation (including age manipulation). You could argue Chrono Navigator has a time-stop resistance feat by itself as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. And you are certain that you are not using a rationale similar to that every machine powered by electricity should have the exact same attributes and applications?

 

[Greenshifter]

Well intrinsic stuff such as resistances wouldn’t fall under the electricity analogy so that’s definitely fine. You could maybe argue the electricity analogy for offensive age manipulation but vastly inferior time-tech to the chrono navigator has the capability to alter the age of objects so I see no reason for why the Chrono Navigator itself wouldn’t be able to when we are given confirmation that said tech uses the same power source that itself does.

Also sometimes time beams in Ben 10 do not have the desired effect one intends to use them for, so you can hardly argue time-tech has certain abilities based on design.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it still seems too speculative for my taste, but I would appreciate further staff input here.

 

[Greenshifter]

I’ll ask Firestorm to comment here again

 

[Firestorm808]

Can I have a brief summary of the agreements so far?

 

[Greenshifter]

Agreements? Paradox’s resistance is already applied.

The only thing left is scaling chrono nav’s abilities to the time cycles. Ant seems to think it’s too big of an assumption since it’d be like saying everything powered by electricity has the exact same attributes and applications:

My arguments:

The only time-related thing that the time cycles have is a chronaton particle. Which is the power source for the chrono navigator. Thus all time-related abilities and resistances that the time cycles have must come from the chronaton particle, thus the chrono navigator which is powered by chronaton particles should also get these abilities and resistances.

Well intrinsic stuff such as resistances wouldn’t fall under the electricity analogy so that’s definitely fine. You could maybe argue the electricity analogy for offensive age manipulation but vastly inferior time-tech to the chrono navigator has the capability to alter the age of objects so I see no reason for why the Chrono Navigator itself wouldn’t be able to when we are given confirmation that said tech uses the same power source that itself does.

Also sometimes time beams in Ben 10 do not have the desired effect one intends to use them for, so you can hardly argue time-tech has certain abilities based on design.

 

[Firestorm808]

So we're good on Time Stop Resistance.

Wait. When were chronatons a thing?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, the time stop has been changed to resistance, with the added note that you need TS that stops timeless beings in order to affect him.

 

[Greenshifter]

So we're good on Time Stop Resistance.

Wait. When were chronatons a thing?

Yeah, ben-10-omniverse-episode-73-lets-do-the-time-war-again 11:27

 

[Antvasima]

Agreements? Paradox’s resistance is already applied.

The only thing left is scaling chrono nav’s abilities to the time cycles. Ant seems to think it’s too big of an assumption since it’d be like saying everything powered by electricity has the exact same attributes and applications:

My arguments:

The only time-related thing that the time cycles have is a chronaton particle. Which is the power source for the chrono navigator. Thus all time-related abilities and resistances that the time cycles have must come from the chronaton particle, thus the chrono navigator which is powered by chronaton particles should also get these abilities and resistances.

Well intrinsic stuff such as resistances wouldn’t fall under the electricity analogy so that’s definitely fine. You could maybe argue the electricity analogy for offensive age manipulation but vastly inferior time-tech to the chrono navigator has the capability to alter the age of objects so I see no reason for why the Chrono Navigator itself wouldn’t be able to when we are given confirmation that said tech uses the same power source that itself does.

Also sometimes time beams in Ben 10 do not have the desired effect one intends to use them for, so you can hardly argue time-tech has certain abilities based on design.

@Andytrenom

What do you think about this?

 

[Andytrenom]

What was the time stop resistance feat again?

 

[Greenshifter]

Chronaton particle (I called it time crystal cause why not, I'm also not sure on the spelling) resistance feats: and . Both seem to be time stops (Vilgax and Ben were stopped at the end). Unaffected by age manipulation and ben-10-omniverse-episode-73-lets-do-the-time-war-again 11:27 here Ben builds the time cycles and integrates the particle in them.

. The first one would be Ben 10000 not being affected by a time stop because of Paradox presumably using his chrono navigator to protect him, unless you want to argue Ben 10000 has an innate time stop resistance or that you can just move in time stops in Ben 10 as long as you're not affected by the thing that caused it.