Problem with the healing page explanation

[Dark_Soul20189]

Permission granted to make it a staff thread by @Mr. Bambu

So after trying to make many changes regarding regeneration, that has been underserved, I have repeatedly been met with the same problem. Due to how similar the ability (healing) is to regeneration and resurrection some problems, were expected but not to the degree I met with. I will first point out the main issues i found while making threads related to it like this one. That thread will also have a lot of good arguments from both sides, so if you want to be more aware of why it is an issue, feel free to read it, but I will link the main arguments.

First let's start with the Healing page current layout.

The ability to actively relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of any disease, pathological condition, violation of life, to normalize the disturbed vital processes, which ultimately leads to recovery and restoration of health. This ability can be used both on oneself and on others (as opposed to Regeneration, which is passive and only targets the user).

It's to be noted that the degree of the ability, if possible, should be specified with the same type system used for Regeneration, and so someone that has displayed the capability to heal up to a Mid level would be specified with the respective prefix.

I will discuss this more in a bit, but first let's take a look at the problem. I will start from the smaller one's to the bigger one.

How do you determine something is healing?

• You can heal yourself or others.
• Not passive
• Generally comes in a form of a magic spell.

How do we define Regeneration?

• Passive
• Only works on oneself
• Is almost always Physiology based

How do we define resurrection?

• Can be both passive or active. (I think?, resurrection is far from my expertise)
• Usually creates a new body, instead of regenerating the old wounds.
• Can be used on oneself or others.
• Needs one to be fully dead.

Naturally I can't talk about healing without discussing regeneration... Also, excuse me for linking people's comments and arguments without permission, if you want me to take them away I will, just like if you want me to add some more examples.

Problem 1 - Working on the same system as regeneration and resurrection.
This is the smallest problem, but the most common I came across... For some reason most of the newer scalers, doesn't understand that healing works on the same system as resurrection and regeneration.


Problem 2 - Higher tier "healing"
This is the the most controversial of the problems. It is simple, can healing really be classified as Low godly, mid godly and high godly? What i mean by that is that how can one heal something that isn't there and wouldn't that just be resurrection? Now here's where the fun starts. From my point of view, there is 2 ways to explain this, first of all, healing is possible since a part of something deeper exists, for example you can heal a completely erased body from the soul. Second would be to just call this resurrection, but that itself have some differences.

Arguments why godly healing can't exist are here, here, here


Problem 3 - Fundamentals of healing
What qualifies for healing currently? Healing works if you are capable of healing/regenerating others and yourself. Using magic or skills to regenerate or heal others. Anything that needs to be casted to regenerate and heal, so it is not passive, usually comes in form of an ability like Magic, or skills. {This description is a work in progress}

Examples of People missing that regeneration needs to be passive, here, here, here,
If healing can affect others it can't be regeneration, as shown here,

Conclusion
From what I have shown and learned, while dealing with this ability and the abilities it is always compared to, the Healing page needs to be reworked/reworded. This is due to how often people (none staff) are confused about what this ability is capable of and how it works, while the admins (staff) have a perfect idea how it works. . What i wanna discuss in this thread is if we wanna rework it or just reword it.

Now I have some proposals on how to fix it, if you don't like them or have a better one, please discuss it in the thread!


Proposal 1 - Simple rewording
As we can clearly see, there are way too many misconceptions and misinterpretation of how we treat healing here. So a good way to deal with it would be to simply focus on what it's healing, that means Start it of with mentioning it works on the same system as regeneration, it is not passive and can be used on others. This would include;

• First: Making it a lot more clear that here we treat Healing others as a form of none passive regeneration so people don't just think it heals diseases.
• Second: Explain that it works entirely on the same system as regeneration, and not just until high, and preferably with some notes explaining why we can have godly healing.
• Third: We start with explaining how the ability works, instead of giving examples like these

The ability to actively relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of any disease, pathological condition, violation of life, to normalize the disturbed vital processes, which ultimately leads to recovery and restoration of health.

When starting the explanation like this, it creates an illusion that the ability doesn't heal large injuries, and instead focuses on symptoms and effects. This is due to how our own brain works. This creates problems for the newer scalers, or people that aren't used to the ability itself.
- Fourth, Make it clear that anything that is casted, is NOT regeneration and preferably also add a note saying Regeneration is usually a part of one's physiology.

Proposal 2 - Rework the ability.
This is self explanatory. If we go this root we would rework the ability. If so it would mainly indicate a few points for ""healing""(regeneration).

- First: Healing can't/can be in the godly tier.
- Second: Dose casting something really make it healing?
- Third (general change): Make it clearer what the difference between automatic and passive is since this is something I keep stumbling across.


Proposal 3 - Help, find a better proposal in the thread.
Pretty much will add good proposals on how to deal with this, that doesn't fit the other categories here.


I personally think that Proposal 1 is the better one, but I have seen very good arguments for both sides.

Summary
The healing page is some what misleading, and the difference between regeneration, healing and resurrection needs to be more clear. We also need to get a better explanation of what qualifies as healing. I have proposed ideas what needs to be done, but due to how bad my English and phrasing is I can't create the perfect phrasing, so i hope that can be discussed in the comments.


Votes

Agree -

Disagree -

Neutral -

I will add a small comment after there name what they agree/disagree/neutral to, and add a link to where they vote.

Notes

The reason why I am mainly using my earlier threads for examples, is due to it having lots of good arguments for both sides.

I will keep track of the arguments of all sides, and link and unlink them from the CRT, as the thread goes.

@Tatsumi504 helped me get the idea to make this thread so i hope (he?) can be allowed to talk here.

This thread will likely not only affect Healing page, but also the resurrection and regeneration page to.

As always I will try to update, the CRT alongside the threads lifespan to improve it and keep it up to date.

PS, I hope everyone have a civilized discussion to move the debate forward, whenever you agree or disagree.

Lastly I wish for everyone to have a Great day!

 

[Tatsumi504]

Better get my points across early on...

How do you determine something is healing?

• You can heal yourself or others.
• Not passive
• Generally comes in a form of a magic spell.

How do we define Regeneration?

• Passive
• Only works on oneself
• Is almost always Physiology based

Though we're discussing fictional applications here, healing and regeneration are still deeply rooted to real life principles. As I've said before, determining the difference between healing and regeneration based on if it's passive or active is wrong for the following reasons:

1. A healing ability be it magic, skill, any power system a work of fiction uses could be always active (passive/automatic). Adhering to the standard being proposed, healing in this case becomes regeneration.
2. Requiring activation, being used on others also falls into some kind of gray area. Abilities which work by boosting the body's natural healing factor exist after all, It could be a drug, technique, magic or skill. This ability requiring conscious activation, being used on others however doesn't make it healing.

How do we define resurrection?

• Can be both passive or active. (I think?, resurrection is far from my expertise)
• Usually creates a new body, instead of regenerating the old wounds.
• Can be used on oneself or others.
• Needs one to be fully dead.

I don't have much to say about resurrection, the page is fine the way it is, the only problem is the overlap between regeneration and resurrection but that only applies to godly levels of regeneration. I will however say that godly regeneration and resurrection are basically the same, both come hand in hand even on our character profiles. Almost every profile with at least low-godly regen also lists type 4 immortality for that character.

Problem 2 - Higher tier "healing"
This is the the most controversial of the problems. It is simple, can healing really be classified as Low godly, mid godly and high godly? What i mean by that is that how can one heal something that isn't there and wouldn't that just be resurrection? Now here's where the fun starts. From my point of view, there is 2 ways to explain this, first of all, healing is possible since a part of something deeper exists, for example you can heal a completely erased body from the soul. Second would be to just call this resurrection, but that itself have some differences.

This is another problem, godly levels of healing cannot and should not be a thing. As I've said despite being fictional regeneration and healing are still steeped in real life so we shouldn't ignore certain things just because it's fiction.
If we're to stick to real world standards healing is simply tissue closure/repair of damaged tissue leading to scar formation while regeneration will describe the capacity to regrow damaged organs or tissue.
Though the line becomes blurred if not nonexistent as healing abilities in fiction have been shown to do the same thing classified as regeneration, there's still one rule that stands...fictional healing almost always involves repair from something never generating new parts from nothing.
Healing cannot be on a godly level as to attain godly regeneration, you have to regenerate from nothing i.e. there's nothing to repair. You cannot heal (repair) a completely erased body from the soul/mind as both aren't even the same. In this regard, I agree that it should just be classified as resurrection.

What qualifies for healing currently? Healing works if you are capable of healing/regenerating others and yourself. Using magic or skills to regenerate or heal others. Anything that needs to be casted to regenerate and heal, so it is not passive, usually comes in form of an ability like Magic, or skills. {This description is a work in progress}

As I've mentioned, being passive or active shouldn't be a deciding factor in making a distinction. Drugs, magic, skills, techniques etc can be consciously used to enhance one's natural regeneration examples of verses where this apply would include Naruto, Demon Slayer.

Among the proposals the OP has made, proposal one is definitely out of the question. Being against healing & regeneration not being differentiated by whether or not it's passive, used on others isn't a hill I wish to die on. I see the logic behind it but it should be acknowledged that there are exceptions to that rule. On that topic, points 1 & 2 are fine if the acknowledgement is made, point 3 isn't a necessity as it's just an example of what can be achieved with healing (some regeneration users may even be capable of the same) but point 4 is out of the question with the exception to the part about physiology.

Proposal 2 - Rework the ability.
This is self explanatory. If we go this route we would rework the ability. If so it would mainly indicate a few points for ""healing""(regeneration).

- First: Healing can't/can be in the godly tier.

Agreed. If non physiology based regen or what is being pushed to be strictly healing enters this category, it should simply be indexed as resurrection.

- Second: Does casting something really make it healing?
- Third (general change): Make it clearer what the difference between automatic and passive is since this is something I keep stumbling across.

I've already covered the detrimental factors of this. Healing can be passive and high level regeneration can be triggered through external means. There's no need to enforce such a strict distinction as a sufficient number of exceptions exist.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03

I would appreciate your input here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Healing and Regeneration definitely should be two different things, but regeneration is basically what most superhero comics refer to as "Healing Factor". Which is basically the ability to naturally heal much faster than the average human and better yet heal things humans cannot regenerate naturally such as removed body parts or even the entire body in some more extreme cases. Healing is more or less what RPG white mages do or what various combat medics can do via their technologies or medication. I have heard of proposals to rename it restoration and also include things like curing poison inducement and/or other status effects or the ability to just undo the destructive damage done to various objects or the climate. But do not think we got around to that

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus. Healing is essentially intended to be standard white mage restoration of injured other people and beings to different degrees.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We can dumb down the first sentence a bit, I suppose.

Healing is the ability to remove injuries of oneself and others. Users may also use it to remove diseases or other medical conditions.

And then the rest of the sentences.

I think the distinction to regeneration is handled well. It's not that healing strictly needs to be cast. A passive healing aura, which heals others, is also healing.

It's also weird that people would just assume that regeneration stops working at godly, when that's not written anywhere. If it says the system is used it is used. While we could in principle change to

It's to be noted that the degree of the ability, if possible, should be specified with the same type system used for Regeneration, including low-godly and higher level, and so someone that has displayed the capability to heal up to a Mid level would be specified with the respective prefix.

But that just sounds weird. Don't know if there is maybe a more organic way to point it out.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that the wording of the fundamental definition of the power should be streamlined to become more easily understood.

I have done so now. Does it seem acceptable?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Healing?type=revision&diff=8597784&oldid=8317918

 

[DontTalkDT]

Looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

Is there anything left to do here then, or should we close this thread?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Thank you.

Is there anything left to do here then, or should we close this thread?

Since there dosen't seem to be any real disscussion going it can be closed, since the goal has been achived. Though if I find more issues regarding me ""fixing"" misplaced regeneration I will ask to re open it.


Thank you everyone that has participated in this thread!

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, thank you to everybody here.

I will close this thread then.