Precog Potency Question

[Purgy]

As has been heavily discussed in this thread, specifically involving Zeus and Yhwach's precog

How do we determine which precog is superior to another?

For example, lets say that character one can see a single future an hour in advance

And character two can see every future an entire year in advance

Is character two's precog superior to character one's? And would resistance to character one's precog be enough to resist character two's?

Does resistance to precog which sees a single future five seconds in advance make you immune to any level of precog that doesn't overcome resistance?

 

[Loyd]

why did it have to be two verses i really liked.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

As has been heavily discussed in this thread, specifically involving Zeus and Yhwach's precog

How do we determine which precog is superior to another?

For example, lets say that character one can see a single future an hour in advance

And character two can see every future an entire year in advance

Is character two's precog superior to character one's? And would resistance to character one's precog be enough to resist character two's?

Does resistance to precog which sees a single future five seconds in advance make you immune to any level of precog that doesn't overcome resistance?

It's another case by case situation tbh. Also "immunity" is a pretty strong term considering how bonkers fiction is.

In the example you brought up C2s precog is (obviously) superior to C1s precog and resistance is dependant on potency. I would imagine being resistance to basic precog wouldn't make you resistance to more advance forms of precog unless you have the feats to back it up.

That's like saying someone who can resist fire manipulation from a basic lighter and then assuming they can resist fire directly from the Sun (due to being "resistance" to fire), it can potentially bleed into NLF territory.

 

[Purgy]

It's another case by case situation tbh. Also "immunity" is a pretty strong term considering how bonkers fiction is.

In the example you brought up C2s precog is (obviously) superior to C1s precog and resistance is dependant on potency. I would imagine being resistance to basic precog wouldn't make you resistance to more advance forms of precog unless you have the feats to back it up.

That's like saying someone who can resist fire manipulation from a basic lighter and then assuming they can resist fire directly from the Sun (due to being "resistance" to fire), it can potentially bleed into NLF territory.

Makes sense, that's what I believe as well, though people have been arguing against it, hence this thread.

 

[azontr]

So in terms of like precog potency, it's like saying because you can resist precog that sees like 1 second into the future that means you can resist precog that sees uh, well, well just say Yhwach precog lol.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Makes sense, that's what I believe as well, though people have been arguing against it, hence this thread.

Yikes, hax potency is a thing afterall. Unless I'm misunderstanding your points there really shouldn't be a debate.

So in terms of like precog potency, it's like saying because you can resist precog that sees like 1 second into the future that means you can resist precog that sees uh, well, well just say Yhwach precog lol.

Exactly hence why I said "It can potentially bleed into NLF territory".

 

[KingTempest]

Following

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Do people not get difference between Potency and Versitility for Precog?

Range, Duration and Precision are all factors which determine Versitility.

Potency is only judged in Layers of resistance negation and Dimensionality.

Viewing acasuals is also something impressive....but its wierd....how we should scale that.

 

[Purgy]

Do people not get difference between Potency and Versitility for Precog?

Range, Duration and Precision are all factors which determine Versitility.

Potency is only judged in Layers of resistance negation and Dimensionality.

Based on what exactly?

Precog resistance isn't Acausality Type 2, the resistance should only be as good as the level of precog it's resisting, same with virtually every ability on this wiki.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Based on what exactly?

Precog resistance isn't Acausality Type 2, the resistance should only be as good as the level of precog it's resisting, same with virtually every ability on this wiki.

Just because someone has Time stop with better AoE and duration doesn't mean its better potency then a smaller time stop.

Both have same potency.

Precog has similar system of determination on this site.

 

[Purgy]

Just because someone has Time stop with better AoE and duration doesn't mean its better potency then a smaller time stop.

Both have same potency.

Precog has similar system of determination on this site.

Not every ability has the same ways of determining potency, that's what this thread exists for, to find how we quantify the difference between different kinds of precog and the level of resistance they grant

Your logic essentially means precog resistance of any kind is precog immunity (aside from overcoming resistance), no matter how low tier the precog is that is being resisted.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Not every ability has the same ways of determining potency, that's what this thread exists for, to find how we quantify the difference between different kinds of precog and the level of resistance they

Some abilities are wildly different, while some are more similar than others.

I explained similar properties between time stop and Precog....in context of determining potency and Versitility. So the point still stands.

Your logic essentially means precog resistance is precog immunity (aside from overcoming resistance), no matter how low tier the precog is that is being resisted.

Thats because your and mine criteria for determining potency itself is very different so this bound to happen.
I never even said immunity....so its irrelevant.

Let me ask you a question.....why is Precognition so useful? Whats the fundamental use of a Precognition?

This will clear up why we have so wildly different ideas of Precog.

 

[Purgy]

Some abilities are wildly different, while some are more similar than others.

I explained similar properties between time stop and Precog....in context of determining potency and Versitility. So the point still stands.

Thats because your and mine criteria for determining potency itself is very different so this bound to happen.
I never even said immunity....so its irrelevant.

Let me ask you a question.....why is Precognition so useful? Whats the fundamental use of a Precognition?

This will clear up why we have so wildly different ideas of Precog.

I've noted your opinion and clearly shown that I disagree with it

What you're arguing for is essentially any level of precog resistance equals precog immunity, if that's what the majority decide in this thread, fine, but I didn't make this thread just so you could bring the GoW argument here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I've noted your opinion and clearly shown that I disagree with it

Sure....but why?

What you're arguing for is essentially any level of precog resistance equals precog immunity, if that's what the majority decide in this thread, fine, but I didn't make this thread just so you could bring the GoW argument here.

Apeal to motive fallacy.

Why don't you stop dancing around the issue and answer the questions. Do you want to have a proper discussion or just strawman me...cuz where the hell have I braught up GoW?
Quote me.

 

[Purgy]

Sure....but why?

Apeal to motive fallacy.

Why don't you stop dancing around the issue and answer the questions. Do you want to have a proper discussion or just strawman me...cuz where the hell have I braught up GoW?
Quote me.

Because resistance should never equate to immunity, the level of resistance should always be noted.

How is it an appeal to motive fallacy? I literally made this thread so that we could get an answer instead of going back and forth in the GoW thread

I don't care for your opinion on the matter, you've already expressed your view, I'm curious what other people think.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because resistance should never equate to immunity, the level of resistance should always be noted

I never bring up immunity, never made or implied such a conclusion.

I thought you disagreed with my time stop comparison and actually have a reason.

How is it an appeal to motive fallacy? I literally made this thread so that we could get an answer instead of going back and forth in the GoW thread

Well too bad I came with the mentality that this thread might help anyone in cases beyond one particular vs match, because its such a general question that it can apply to any case.
So I thought better to keep baggages of that vs thread to itself and not bring them here.

But I guess fortune doesn't favour me.

I don't care for your opinion on the matter, you've already expressed

It was not a opinion, its a just a simple question. But fruitless I guess.


So we wait for experts.

 

[YungManzi]

Honestly, if you resist precog from someone who can see a year into the future, my perspective is that your resistance should only cover that year. So someone with precog which can see further into the future still shouldn't be able to see your future in that span of that year, but they could see beyond it. That's my perspective.

So... To give my thoughts on this question.

Does resistance to precog which sees a single future five seconds in advance make you immune to any level of precog that doesn't overcome resistance?

No, it doesn't. But what it does ensure is that those 5 seconds of that 'single future' cannot be viewed by the character in question.

This is my opinion on the subject.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Honestly, if you resist precog from someone who can see a year into the future, my perspective is that your resistance should only cover that year. So someone with precog which can see further into the future still shouldn't be able to see your future in that span of that year, but they could see beyond it. That's my perspective.

So... To give my thoughts on this question.


No, it doesn't. But what it does ensure is that those 5 seconds of that 'single future' cannot be viewed by the character in question.

This is my opinion on the subject.

That is an interesting take.
I can get behind this. Though I still stand behind my opinion as alternative.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Honestly, if you resist precog from someone who can see a year into the future, my perspective is that your resistance should only cover that year. So someone with precog which can see further into the future still shouldn't be able to see your future in that span of that year, but they could see beyond it. That's my perspective.

So... To give my thoughts on this question.


No, it doesn't. But what it does ensure is that those 5 seconds of that 'single future' cannot be viewed by the character in question.

This is my opinion on the subject.

So there is a problem I found in this.
While it may seem intuitive that resistance and hax of coinciding duration of time will cancel out while remainder of time interval will remain viewable.

There is one factor you didn't consider.
Causality.

Every event have a preceding chain of events that cause it.
If your character cannot view early set of events, then rest of future will also remain unviewable. Because you cannot view cause, effect will also escape you.
Future will become uncertain.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why would not seeing the cause prevent you from seeing the effect? If someone steps on a banana, slips as a result and falls over, am I somehow unable to perceive them having fallen over just because I couldn’t see them stepping on the banana due to something obstructed my view of said step on banana?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Why would not seeing the cause prevent you from seeing the effect? If someone steps on a banana, slips as a result and falls over, am I somehow unable to perceive them having fallen over just because I couldn’t see them stepping on the banana due to something obstructed my view of said step on banana?

This phrase makes me believe you are talking about normal eyesight.
In which case i don't see how your example equivalents at all. Since obviously a physical obstruction blocking your visuals in past of the cause of fall is not same as when it doesn't block the eyesight of your future self when you see the fall. Because both events happen in two different time points under different circumstances.


As far as Precognition is concerned, there are a few precogs which could bypass this phenomenon which @YungManzi described.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The physical obstruction to my normal view is an analogy for the resistance to five seconds of the future in the example above. Not being able to see those 5 seconds doesn’t stop me from seeing what comes after.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The physical obstruction to my normal view is an analogy for the resistance to five seconds of the future in the example above. Not being able to see those 5 seconds doesn’t stop me from seeing what comes after.

Then you missed the point of my explanation.

Circumstances for your past self will not be same as Circumstances of your future self.
Both different versions of yourself.
Both view the events of only that instance as their eyes percieve the world.

Precognition's whole point is looking into events that do not belong in the instant you live.
You look into events of past( Retrocognition) or future( Precognition) while you exist in present instant.

There's a fundamental disconnect of analogy with topic at hand.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So why does any of that prevent X from seeing stuff from after the resistance of Y? If seeing stuff in the future is simply viewing shit from a different perspective, then logic dictates that you can still see what happens after the time of Y’s resistance since it isn’t dependent on any actual line of sight. Not being able to see those 5 seconds isn’t a like wall that stops you looking past it by your own explanation.

We even have examples of this in fiction with people having premonitions of events in the future but not seeing the events leading up to it like Phoebe Halliwell in Charmed seeing a kid getting in a car accident on his bike or seeing the winning lotto numbers, or PJO demigods having demigod dreams where they get visions of the future in vague representations of the involved deities’ symbols of power/sacred animals. Neither see anything leading up to the events they see but will still see events in the future.

Your whole “not seeing the cause = not seeing the effect” argument doesn’t make sense here as unlike a Type 2 Acausal, they aren’t unseeable in the entire timeline, just those 5 secs or whatever number is resisted.

 

[XDragnoir]

The only thing i don't get, if my future self is me, he also has the same resistance to precognition that i do, so why would someone be able to see his future if they can't see my own?

Like, if my best feat is resisting 10min future sight and my opponent has 15min, wouldn't my future self from 11 minutes just apply the resistance again and cover that "distance"?

For example, if i resist EE since i was born you will be unable to erase me from past-present-future unless you are able to bypass resistances, even if that past-present-future EE is "better" than the present only EE i have resisted.