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Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

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Just to stir up discussion, what's the counter to the argument the painting worlds are just a case of immersion?

Or that some translations apparently say Bowser didn't create them (or rather they lack a statement saying he did) or that it's just a singular painting world likened to that of a country and the paintings are portals to different parts of it?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
what's the counter to the argument the painting worlds are just a case of immersion?
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Due to the statements that these were worlds created within paintings, not mention Bowser's dark worlds aren't like this.

Foxthefox1000 said:
Or that some translations apparently say Bowser didn't create them (or rather they lack a statement saying he did)
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Translations on our side pointed that he created them, lining up with the English text.

Foxthefox1000 said:
that it's just a singular painting world likened to that of a country and the paintings are portals to different parts of it?
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Such a claim would need proof as nothing from what I've found has actually connected them.
 
I'll copy over what I said from the last thread, since I think it's somewhat relevant:

"Minor details, but Bowser never had access to all 120 stars. He never found the secret stars, and his endless staircase was overpowered by 70 stars (80 in SM64 DS), putting his total stars between 70-105 in the original."

As for the thread itself, I don't agree that the "infinite underworld" and "bottomless pits" statements should be taken to mean actual infinite sized painting worlds. Both refer to the common trope of, well, "bottomless" pits that are common in all Mario games, and shouldn't be taken literally.

Aside from that, I agree that the word "world" here refers to a universe. This is the most explicit scan, as it directly states that Bowser using the power stars is capable of Low 2-C reality-warping, knowing that the painting worlds have a separate flow of time to the real world.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
I might be wrong, but don't some levels have recurring characters who remember what happened in a previous one? Just food for thought.
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I think you're referring to Nostalgia Galaxy from Mario Galaxy 2, which the location had several design and layout changes + King Thwomp didn't even remember Mario. There's the Bob-omb Buddies I guess, but since Mario is quite famous, wouldn't be surprised if they know him just for that. Heck they aren't even sure themselves.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I think you're referring to Nostalgia Galaxy from Mario Galaxy 2, which the location had several design and layout changes + King Thwomp didn't even remember Mario. There's the Bob-omb Buddies I guess, but since Mario is quite famous, wouldn't be surprised if they know him just for that. Heck they aren't even sure themselves.
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What about the owl and Koopa the quick? Don't they show up in multiple levels and remember thier experiences with Mario?
 
GyroNutz said:
As for the thread itself, I don't agree that the "infinite underworld" and "bottomless pits" statements should be taken to mean actual infinite sized painting worlds. Both refer to the common trope of, well, "bottomless" pits that are common in all Mario games, and shouldn't be taken literally.
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I don't recall many other games calling the pits as bottomless, just pits. Since 64 has many pits, you'd think the guide would call those infinite as well, but they aren't. But we can use another example. In Hazy Maze Cave, there's a big pit in the level that works as any another pit. The game will actually refer to it as a black hole. Should also note that these are different cases, since the Shifting Sand Land quicksand isn't really a pit, but it's stated to be an infinite underworld anyways. While the Tick Tock Clock level is directly stated to be a clock with no bottom, period.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
What about the owl and Koopa the quick? Don't they show up in multiple levels and remember thier experiences with Mario?
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Ah, those are fair cases. The wiki says Hoot can be found in other locations, but I can't find any videos/photos of him in them. Koopa the Quick I can however, so it seems like he's the only case. So, how could he have gotten to a different location? With a Power Star. It's displayed that a Power Star has dimensional travel in 64, letting you leave a level anytime you grab one. And it just so happens that Koopa the Quick has two at the start of the game.
 


I think this is the statement where I might've seen country. But maybe I'm wrong.

Even so, I don't know how consistent this is with the rest of the statements cause I'm pretty sure "worlds" also comes up in the japanese version.
 
Either way, Power Stars are at least Low 2-C, but they're likely 2-C given the evidence presented here. As a Sonic fan, I tend to be reluctant at best to agree with Mario upgrades, especially such massive ones, but this all seems perfectly fine. I haven't seen a single good counter-argument. The only question left is if 2-C is definitive enough to be added without the words "likely" or "possibly" alongside them.
 
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Why 2-C? A single Power Star creates one universe. We can discuss scaling and such in the part two which lists final 3 more feats.
 
Oh shit I thought that a single power star created all of those universes. I've been following so many threads that I got confused. My bad. Even if only one universe got created by all of the power stars in the game, wouldn't they still be Low 2-C though? You can't really divide a Low 2-C feat into something of a lower tier, can you?
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Oh shit I thought that a single power star created all of those universes. I've been following so many threads that I got confused. My bad. Even if only one universe got created by all of the power stars in the game, wouldn't they still be Low 2-C though? You can't really divide a Low 2-C feat into something of a lower tier, can you?
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Nope, much as people want to say you can
 
The only counters I can see being made is the Galaxy 2 Throwback Galaxy (stating whomp's fortress already existed despite the lore of 64) and saying that if we look at how paintings are consistently portrayed they tend to be merely portals to already existing worlds, but that doesn't go against the notion Bowser created these worlds inside them at all and is rather stupid.

The only argument against this is if you believe Bowser never created them and they always existed in the castle, but I think there's multiple lore statements that say otherwise, making that argument purely headcanon.
 
Okay so I found this interpretation. Curious as to y'alls thoughts.

"We see Bob-Omb Battlefield near the castle in one of the golf games (Toadstool Tour, I think?) and one of the Bob-Omb Buddies says that it used to be a peaceful meadow, which wouldn't make sense if it was just created.


You brought up Whomp's Fortress, but if the worlds are actually in the paintings, it wouldn't make sense for it to also be in space and to have the NPCs remember Mario.


Koopa the Quick knows Mario from Bob-Omb Battlefield in Tiny-Huge Island, yet that wouldn't make sense because the door to THI was locked; he must have had another transport method (out traveling through the real world).


Dire Dire Docks also has another entrance that isn't a painting; that wouldn't make sense if it was actually in the paintings.


We know Bowser did create some 64 stages based on the dialogue, but those could easily be the three Bowser fights."
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I don't recall many other games calling the pits as bottomless, just pits. Since 64 has many pits, you'd think the guide would call those infinite as well, but they aren't. But we can use another example. In Hazy Maze Cave, there's a big pit in the level that works as any another pit. The game will actually refer to it as a black hole. Should also note that these are different cases, since the Shifting Sand Land quicksand isn't really a pit, but it's stated to be an infinite underworld anyways. While the Tick Tock Clock level is directly stated to be a clock with no bottom, period.
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Super Paper Mario's the main one I was thinking of, but I was referring to it more as a general trope than anything. Anyways, I checked the guide for myself: the "black hole" refers to the sloped ground leading down to the pit - the pit itself is referred to as bottomless. I suppose the shifting sand land case is different, and it being referred to as "infinite" makes it less hyperbolic, though these are still the weakest pieces of evidence imo.
 
After reading through that it mostly still seems like headcanon. The Toadstool Tour golf course resembles Bob-Omb Battlefield but it isn't exactly. It's just King Bob-Omb placed on top of a spiraling mountain as a callback.

Whomp's Fortress is like the only clear case of a course existing outside the paintings but pretty sure we've talked about this subject before.

Koopa the Quick has an explanation, as well as the fact that if you could just travel the planet, Mario is literally faster than him so why did Mario have to keep going back to the castle while he didn't?

The Owl is a weirder case. I'll need to see if it remembers Mario because it can easily just be a different owl part of the same species.

Dire Dire Docks having another entrance I couldn't find at all unless they were referring to the hole that takes you to the lake outside the castle, but there are known warp points in these worlds, and even then, just one or two levels being connected doesn't mean all of them are in accordance with the lore.

All in all it just kinda seems like headcanon mostly.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Koopa the Quick has an explanation, as well as the fact that if you could just travel the planet, Mario is literally faster than him so why did Mario have to keep going back to the castle while he didn't?
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Wasn't Mario's goal also needing to actually undo Bowser's seals in order to save each Toad? Koopa the Quick doesn't need to, so he'd be just fine.
 
I guess I can see where the "they already exist and weren't created" side is coming from, but it's a major contradiction towards what we know about the lore and major plot point of 64. Maybe if there was more solid proof I'd be willing to agree.

And while yes, paintings have mostly been used as portals, they are also nifty for sealing things away (like Bowser was said to do with some Power Stars in the painting worlds as well as the princess and toads) and having another feat of a realm being created inside one all from Luigi's Mansion, where King Boo changes the Mario painting he's sealed in into a Bowser one where he then sucks Luigi inside and there's a whole realm inside with a replica of the manor.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I guess I can see where the "they already exist and weren't created" side is coming from, but it's a major contradiction towards what we know about the lore and major plot point of 64. Maybe if there was more solid proof I'd be willing to agree.
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Even if you play Devil's Advocate, paintings irl can be based off of real locations, so I need no reason for why the worlds Bowser made were based off of what the initial paintings looked like.
 
If paintings did exist before bowser created them, Shouldn't be weird how Bowser is aware of them that they are in the castle?
For koopa the quick, he do have power stars (2 kek) meaning he has access to Dimensional travel
And for owl, this might be a fair one but it sounds iffy how can we find him in WF or CCM or THI suddenly when we enter the level, espacially when the time frame between going from a painting to another is very short so it might be a game mechanic or just different one, as for his dialogues
It seems that all of them (in different stages) are the same one.
He says who woke me up then tell you how to control me and let's go in all the stages he doesn't say hey mario or something
 
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Okay yeah. I checked the dialogues.

The terms are all over the place. "Land" is used sometimes while "World", "Realm", and "Course" are used other times.

The bosses themselves have a few lines of dialogue talking about their "realm" as well.

I think "world(s)" is said most often though and I think they're all supposed to be related anyways.

With the supplementary evidence it could very well mean universe-sized worlds
 
Also the Bob-Omb buddies are probably traveling through the paintings with you, as the one talks about how the fight for the castle isn't over yet. If they were some separate country or whatever why would tney be fighting for the castle? This leads me to believe they were able to scatter about the paintings through the castle after the power stars were stolen to try and fight to get them back. It makes the most sense imo
 
Denied. All of this are mere fabrications and loopholes to the actual context of the game itself. Worldwide? Extra Dimensional Space? Infinite Underworlds? They are mere hyperbolic statement to describe the situations at hand, not details of the world itself.
 
I agree Worldwide isn't enough to be universal; but it's clearly enough to mean very big. So it's proof the realms are 4-A sized at minimum, but universal seems iffy. Infinite sands could point to it, but the bottomless pit stuff sound hyperbolic. And encompassing all reality sounds more like he will conquer the entire real world over time, not so much a Tier 2 feat by itself.
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
Denied. All of this are mere fabrications and loopholes to the actual context of the game itself. Worldwide? Extra Dimensional Space? Infinite Underworlds? They are mere hyperbolic statement to describe the situations at hand, not details of the world itself.
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Sorry Dino, but it seems like you glanced at the thread because that wasn't the only information handed out in the OP. Please take time to read it all before actually commenting.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree Worldwide isn't enough to be universal; but it's clearly enough to mean very big. So it's proof the realms are 4-A sized at minimum, but universal seems iffy. Infinite sands could point to it, but the bottomless pit stuff sound hyperbolic. And encompassing all reality sounds more like he will conquer the entire real world over time, not so much a Tier 2 feat by itself.
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The point was that they refer to Bowser's paintings as "another" world, aka parallel to theirs due to using their world and Bowser's in the same context. Because of this, their terms for comparing it "the real world" and "all of reality" would mean these statements are universal.
 
I do agree that the guidebook's evidence on infinite bottomless pits are very weak, but the fact that it's straight up stated to be "Another World", the fact that it's stated to mirror the main universe, with statement of "That World" and "Our World", as well as the fact that there's a sun in some of the painting worlds really support Low 2-C.

The word "sekai" can both mean "Planet" and "Universe", and the evidence provided leans far closer to the universe side of things. It would be a huge, huge leap in logic to make these places seem like only planet like realms or hell, even 4-A pocket dimensions after it's considered to be parallel to the main world. At that point, you would have to prove Mario's universe is just really small, which naturally isn't true by default, but even if you tried to say it's that small, there's already statements in other games that imply Mario's universe is indeed a universe.
 
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