Possibly High 2-A Lavos (and/or a new bad ending key)

[The_real_cal_howard]

...I'm finally doing this.

I'm just gonna copy + paste Fate's response:

"For one, if we take one interpretation, it took:

1. Anywhere between 20+ to 44 2-As to beat it, no less (DBT doesn't have the Time Travel limitation of CT).

2. EoS Serge.

3. Frozen Flame which was channeling its own powers against the thing.

4. Chrono Cross which was tailor made against it.

5. The powers of thoughts, dreams and stuff from everyone across the infinite timelines channeled by the Chrono Cross to beat the thing.

For two, we have actual 2-D space in Chrono Cross and it is presented as qualitatively inferior/a lower plane of existence compared to 3-D Reality.

And by the end of the game Schala mentions stuff about "the world evolving to the next dimension".

For three, the Chrono Cross actually reacts to lower dimensions as well, since you can legit gather all party members if you go to the 2-D space of the Temporal Vortex and use it... You literally gather every party member you ever had across different playthroughs of the game (Only way you can get all the characters). Though this last one could be game mechanics.

There is also the fact that the DBT, while presented as Non-Existence, is nonetheless mentioned to be Beyond Space and Time. We also have that old statement about transcending Time and Space from Queen Zeal to boot so the existence of ONE dimension above the 4th one shouldn't be too far-fetched."

Also, it is heavily implied that Lavos would've absorbed Serge if he lost, along with the Chrono Cross itself, severely boosting his power and screwing over everything (and if the Dragon God is anything to go by, he would've also gained the powers of the Chrono Cross and Serge)

 

[Dark649]

We should not add keys for ipotetical forms from non-canon endings.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

>breaking Cal's dreams in an instant.

 

[FateAlbane]

Oh Cal, why would you do that.

I'm neutral on this, but the Absorbing Serge part is something canonnicaly possible as they mention it in the game.

Plus if Serge himself already has a possibly High 2-A key and he still needed help + the Chrono Cross + another artifact, that being the Frozen Flame which was BINDING him to Lavos itself and channeling Lavos' own powers for the match, It's actually quite possible.

And this is something that did happen.

I just don't care about whether we stay on solid 2-A or get this possibly for Lavos as well scalling from Serge. I'm comfortable with whatever.

 

[FateAlbane]

Nonetheless, if we don't give anyone Bad Ending keys, people like those from Nipponverse are losing quite a lot of their scaling, as someone like say, Pram. has a 2-C key that only happens in a non-canon bad ending.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, a few MK characters and KI's Glacius (via tech) are scaled from Bad Endings, and 682 has his 4-B tier from a potentiality...is that a word?

 

[Dark649]

Then they should be removed because Tremon Planet level stat for an ending was removed.

 

[Schnee_One]

Just to be sure.

High 2A Lavos vs another High 2A is possible?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What's Tremon Planet?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just to be sure.

High 2A Lavos vs another High 2A is possible?

With hope.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"There is also the fact that the DBT, while presented as Non-Existence, is nonetheless mentioned to be Beyond Space and Time. We also have that old statement about transcending Time and Space from Queen Zeal to boot so the existence of ONE dimension above the 4th one shouldn't be too far-fetched.""

That sounds like a bit too much of a leap.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Does this mean.....Lavos vs N.E.O is possible now?????.......

 

[FateAlbane]

Wait, that literally equals disregarding every non canon possibility for every characters out there.

Even stuff like Star Wars EU would get eliminated if the only reason is "that's non canon".

Also I already pointed out the whole Serge needing help and extra power aside from the Chrono Cross did happen. Also not sure where you got the "non-canon ending stuff" from, as said info comes mostly from within the game while the rest came from the Ultimania guide.

 

[Dark649]

What's Tremon Planet?

Watch here, it was removed because we don't take non-canon endings and that should be the same for a lot of other verses.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Calling the Star Wars Legends "non-canon" isn't quite an accurate moniker.

It's just another continuity, not something outright non-canon.

 

[Schnee_One]

Does this mean.....Lavos vs N.E.O is possible now?????.......

NO! (Roundhouse)

We don't need that! Just use Mxy

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ever The point there is that the existence of a 5th dimension is possible, not that outright equals 5D beings.

Pretty sure the whole point of the OP was scaling Lavos from Serge who already has a possibly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's something you removed yourself. Did you have the consensus to make that change?

 

[Dark649]

That's something you removed yourself. Did you have the consensus to make that change?

Oh please, Ant told me to do so because he never aquired that form in canon.

 

[FateAlbane]

Calling the Star Wars Legends "non-canon" isn't quite an accurate moniker.
It's just another continuity, not something outright non-canon.

Isn't that the textbook definition of non-canon? Like literally every different continuity out there? By that logic Lost Canvas would be canon to SS.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Either way, I'm pretty sure we don't allow scaling for "This might have happened". We need to actually go by what a character actually shows they can do, not delve into pure hypotheticals with stuff like this.

 

[FateAlbane]

Refer to "scaling from Serge" who already has said possibly High 2-A tier. The above points were just to back up that the scaling is possible.

You guys are kinda pointing the gun to the strawman.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Calling the Star Wars Legends "non-canon" isn't quite an accurate moniker.
It's just another continuity, not something outright non-canon.

Isn't that the textbook definition of non-canon? Like literally every different continuity out there? By that logic Lost Canvas would be canon to SS.

Disney has made it specifically clear that the events of Legends just belong to a different continuity to the Disney content.

It's not just "This didn't happen, shut up" it's "Nothing there affects this".

It's as much non-canon as the Transformers movies are to the original cartoon.

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm neutral on this, but the Absorbing Serge part is something canonnicaly possible as they mention it in the game.

Plus if Serge himself already has a possibly High 2-A key and he still needed help + the Chrono Cross + another artifact, that being the Frozen Flame which was BINDING him to Lavos itself and channeling Lavos' own powers for the match, It's actually quite possible.

/\ This here, all happened (the battle part).

Serge, already has the possible High 2-A tier.

The point is that this same Serge could not singlehandedly deal with the TD, canonically without using the TD's own powers against it on top of the Chrono Cross and help from the party.

So the OP asked if Lavos can get scaling from Serge based on this.

That's it.

I have 0 idea where people brought the "non-canon bad ending" from.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Serge is only possibly High 2-A with the Chrono Cross.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't that what I suggested? Possibly High 2-A?

 

[Kaltias]

Literally all the time that we had Bayonetta at 5-A and FTL+ was because of something that Jubileus can theoretically do if you **** up a minigame. That's scaling to something that "might have happened"

 

[FateAlbane]

Like seriously, there isn't even any ending where TD outright absorbs Serge, it's implied throughout the game and the Ultimania guide confirms it to be possible.

Not that this happens and nor Lavos would get scaling from this possibility alone.

That moment where I'm not even interested in the result and am debating this more than the OP.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Isn't that what I suggested? Possibly High 2-A?

I probably misread Fate's reply, but it sounded like he said that Serge was High 2-A by himself.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, likely the case. my entire thing was "At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A"

 

[FateAlbane]

I think 2-A, possibly High 2-A is more safe if this does get through, since that is the same tier as Serge.

 

[Dark649]

It is heavily implied that Lavos would've absorbed Serge if he lost, which it did not happened as Lavos was defeated.

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's a certain limit we have for using hypothetical stuff.

We've denied making Zamasu's Will 2-C because he would eventually merge with all timelines, for instance.

 

[FateAlbane]

I already pointed above like three times that the absorption is not the only reason and that the main point is that Serge who already has the tier needed a bunch of stuff (namely Frozen Flame and the Party) aside from the Chrono Cross to beat it on top of using the TD's own power against it, yet somehow all that gets ignored.

RIP

 

[The_Everlasting]

Serge only has that tier with the Chrono Cross, and needing something to kill someone doesn't mean you scale to it.

 

[Dark649]

I already pointed above like three times that the absorption is not the only reason and that the main point is that Serge who already has the tier needed a bunch of stuff (namely Frozen Flame and the Party) aside from the Chrono Cross to beat it on top of using the TD's own power against it, yet somehow all that gets ignored.

Lavos was inferior to the Chrono Cross, this is why it wanted to absorb it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ever. Yet Blaze is 5-B, 682 is 4-B, and quite a few people who say the can destroy things don't do so as they're defeated prior.

And it's not like Lavos didn't have the potential to absorb Serge as the Time Devourer anyway.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ever I think you're misunderstanding, since Serge kinda already had the Chrono Cross by the time he fought the TD.

By that logic he should have oneshotted as soon as the match started or would not need the party nor would need to channel the TD's own power to use against it with the Frozen Flame as well, as the Chrono Cross by itself would be more than enough.

 

[FateAlbane]

Finally, TD being capable of absorbing Serge is not a possibility, it's a fact. That never happened, yes, but hey, people like Boros never busted the planet yet it's accepted they could because the guide and the story says so.

 

[Dark649]

And it's not like Lavos didn't have the potential to absorb Serge as the Time Devourer anyway.

But it not happened and the other verses, which have ap ipotitical ap from something that did not happened in canon will be removed.