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Hello. This CRT was created to possibly revise how the wiki treats the power increase characters from Maou Gakuin gain as they approach death/destruction, and also to possibly revise another "ability" related to the source in Maou Gakuin.
I mainly decided to create this CRT because I think Anos Voldigoad's current tier description looks somewhat ridiculous and that it should be changed.
I am currently busy with IRL work for the most part, so I cannot provide a lot of supporting scans atm, and would therefore appreciate any help in gathering scans for this.
This topic is also somewhat debated within the verse's community itself, so this thread can also be used for discussion to possibly resolve any disagreements regarding how exactly the power increase functions.
I will first establish that the "source" in Maou Gakuin is the fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them, which exists deeper than the body, soul and spirit. A bit more info regarding the source can be found here.
Quoting boxes don't seem to work very well with spoiler boxes, so just reload the page if none of the quoting boxes show a "Click to expand..." option.
Conclusion:
I mainly decided to create this CRT because I think Anos Voldigoad's current tier description looks somewhat ridiculous and that it should be changed.
I am currently busy with IRL work for the most part, so I cannot provide a lot of supporting scans atm, and would therefore appreciate any help in gathering scans for this.
This topic is also somewhat debated within the verse's community itself, so this thread can also be used for discussion to possibly resolve any disagreements regarding how exactly the power increase functions.
I will first establish that the "source" in Maou Gakuin is the fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them, which exists deeper than the body, soul and spirit. A bit more info regarding the source can be found here.
Quoting boxes don't seem to work very well with spoiler boxes, so just reload the page if none of the quoting boxes show a "Click to expand..." option.
When I use the term "regular death", I am referring to a person's death without the destruction of their source. When I use the term "true death", I am referring to a person's death when their source is destroyed.
A Japanese idiom is consistently used to describe a truth that applies to all sources in Maou Gakuin, tho sometimes in somewhat different ways.
From here:
The statement from the novels:
This basically means that as a person approaches death/destruction, they gain a permanent power increase, and can then utilise that power increase in an attempt to prevent their own death/destruction.
Here is Anos' first explanation of this:
In this chapter, Sasha and others were training with Anos. During their training, they were threatened with regular death. It is extremely unlikely that they were being threatened with true death, as nothing even implies that their sources were in any kind of direct danger.
Anos uses the idiom to explain the power increase, and says that if you successfully prevent your own death the first time, your power will be even greater the second time you are threatened with death.
Therefore, we can establish that characters can gain a power increase when approaching regular death.
Bomiras gained a power increase as his body was approaching destruction and reduced to ash. This once again shows that characters can gain a power increase when approaching regular death.
Sasha gained a power increase as her source was approaching destruction because she was destroying her own source. This shows us that characters can also gain a power increase when approaching true death (source destruction).
Dialogue between Anos and the Deepening God once again confirms that characters can also gain a power increase when approaching true death (source destruction). It is also established that there is a limit to the power increase normal characters can gain, tho the exact limit is not confirmed.
There are many more examples of this power increase as characters approach death, be it regular death or true death, tho I do not currently have the time to find them all.
I think the above evidence is enough to prove that normal characters gain a permanent yet limited power increase when approaching death. I am unsure which [Ability] this power increase qualifies as tho. This power increase can be statistics amplification, reactive power level, or something else.
My proposal regarding the above is something as follows:
Add "Limited [Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death)" to all Maou Gakuin characters.
It is implied throughout the story that Anos' Source of Destruction gains a seemingly limitless power increase as it approaches destruction.
The logic behind it is relatively simple. His power increases as his source approaches destruction ("decreases"), and since his power presumably increases infinitely as his source approaches destruction, it should theoretically reach infinite power once his source is completely destroyed.
Anos was able to survive a Low 2-C attack, when at the time he should have only had 5-A durability, via the power increase he gained as his source approached destruction.
The fact that the power increase Anos gains as his source approaches destruction is so immense that it would cause Anos to destroy the world with his mere existence further supports the idea that Anos' Source of Destruction gains a seemingly limitless power increase as it approaches destruction.
I do not intend to discuss the verse's cosmology in this thread, but "worlds" in Maou Gakuin are currently accepted as space-time continuums with endless and endlessly stretching size (possibly infinite size), so to destroy the world with your mere existence would indeed require at least infinite power.
One other example that I easily remember is the Anos vs Eques battle. Anos' seemingly limitless power increase as his source approaches destruction enabled him to both physically harm a character with Low 2-C durability and withstand Low 2-C attacks, when once again he should have only had 5-A AP and durability.
There are more examples of this power increase as Anos' source approaches destruction, tho I do not currently have the time to find them all.
It is important to note that this seemingly limitless power increase only applies specifically when Anos' source is approaching destruction, not when Anos approaches regular death. After all, if this increase in power applied to when he approaches regular death, the world would have already been destroyed earlier in the story, since Anos has already been "killed" before.
Anos also suppresses himself after gaining this permanent power increase by offsetting his own power with his own power.
My proposal regarding the above is something as follows:
Remove all "Far higher as approaching destruction" ratings from Anos' tier description, AP and durability justifications, etc.
Add "[Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death. Additionally, as Anos approaches his own destruction, his power increases infinitely; e.g. This immense increase in power enabled Anos to withstand an <Egil Grone Angdroa> capable of destroying the universe)" to Anos' profile instead.
I think any other feats related to the power increase Anos gains as his source approaches destruction can be added to the above justification, as it would still look better than what is currently on Anos' profile.
A Japanese idiom is consistently used to describe a truth that applies to all sources in Maou Gakuin, tho sometimes in somewhat different ways.
From here:
The statement from the novels:
This basically means that as a person approaches death/destruction, they gain a permanent power increase, and can then utilise that power increase in an attempt to prevent their own death/destruction.
Here is Anos' first explanation of this:
In this chapter, Sasha and others were training with Anos. During their training, they were threatened with regular death. It is extremely unlikely that they were being threatened with true death, as nothing even implies that their sources were in any kind of direct danger.
Anos uses the idiom to explain the power increase, and says that if you successfully prevent your own death the first time, your power will be even greater the second time you are threatened with death.
Therefore, we can establish that characters can gain a power increase when approaching regular death.
Bomiras gained a power increase as his body was approaching destruction and reduced to ash. This once again shows that characters can gain a power increase when approaching regular death.
Sasha gained a power increase as her source was approaching destruction because she was destroying her own source. This shows us that characters can also gain a power increase when approaching true death (source destruction).
Dialogue between Anos and the Deepening God once again confirms that characters can also gain a power increase when approaching true death (source destruction). It is also established that there is a limit to the power increase normal characters can gain, tho the exact limit is not confirmed.
There are many more examples of this power increase as characters approach death, be it regular death or true death, tho I do not currently have the time to find them all.
I think the above evidence is enough to prove that normal characters gain a permanent yet limited power increase when approaching death. I am unsure which [Ability] this power increase qualifies as tho. This power increase can be statistics amplification, reactive power level, or something else.
My proposal regarding the above is something as follows:
Add "Limited [Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death)" to all Maou Gakuin characters.
It is implied throughout the story that Anos' Source of Destruction gains a seemingly limitless power increase as it approaches destruction.
The logic behind it is relatively simple. His power increases as his source approaches destruction ("decreases"), and since his power presumably increases infinitely as his source approaches destruction, it should theoretically reach infinite power once his source is completely destroyed.
Anos was able to survive a Low 2-C attack, when at the time he should have only had 5-A durability, via the power increase he gained as his source approached destruction.
The fact that the power increase Anos gains as his source approaches destruction is so immense that it would cause Anos to destroy the world with his mere existence further supports the idea that Anos' Source of Destruction gains a seemingly limitless power increase as it approaches destruction.
I do not intend to discuss the verse's cosmology in this thread, but "worlds" in Maou Gakuin are currently accepted as space-time continuums with endless and endlessly stretching size (possibly infinite size), so to destroy the world with your mere existence would indeed require at least infinite power.
One other example that I easily remember is the Anos vs Eques battle. Anos' seemingly limitless power increase as his source approaches destruction enabled him to both physically harm a character with Low 2-C durability and withstand Low 2-C attacks, when once again he should have only had 5-A AP and durability.
There are more examples of this power increase as Anos' source approaches destruction, tho I do not currently have the time to find them all.
It is important to note that this seemingly limitless power increase only applies specifically when Anos' source is approaching destruction, not when Anos approaches regular death. After all, if this increase in power applied to when he approaches regular death, the world would have already been destroyed earlier in the story, since Anos has already been "killed" before.
Anos also suppresses himself after gaining this permanent power increase by offsetting his own power with his own power.
My proposal regarding the above is something as follows:
Remove all "Far higher as approaching destruction" ratings from Anos' tier description, AP and durability justifications, etc.
Add "[Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death. Additionally, as Anos approaches his own destruction, his power increases infinitely; e.g. This immense increase in power enabled Anos to withstand an <Egil Grone Angdroa> capable of destroying the universe)" to Anos' profile instead.
I think any other feats related to the power increase Anos gains as his source approaches destruction can be added to the above justification, as it would still look better than what is currently on Anos' profile.
I think a few characters in Maou Gakuin, most likely characters who are considered mid tiers to top tiers of the verse, could possibly qualify for some sort of resistance to conceptual manipulation.
Sources in Maou Gakuin are somewhat unique, e.g. some sort of conceptual blood can overflow from a person's source when it is damaged, among other things.
I saw people mention that withstanding conceptual attacks to your concept as physical attacks could qualify as resistance to concept manip (this assumption is probably based off of profiles like this). If the previous statement is true, then I think a few characters in Maou Gakuin could possibly qualify for resistance to concept manip/destruction, as some characters' sources have some sort of "durability", and can seemingly withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks.
Graham's source is able to withstand an <Egil Grone Angdroa>, a magic with at least Low 2-C AP, and Anos states that a power greater than world-destroying power (greater than Low 2-C AP) is needed to destroy Graham's source, so I think it is implied that Graham's source can withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks.
Anos' source is superior to Graham's source and also has this sort of "durability". A few other characters can also withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks, tho to a weaker degree than Graham and Anos.
I think only Anos and Graham can possibly receive an upgrade from this without other supporting scans tho.
Again, I am currently busy with IRL work for the most part, so I cannot provide a lot of supporting scans atm, and would therefore appreciate any help in gathering scans for this.
Sources in Maou Gakuin are somewhat unique, e.g. some sort of conceptual blood can overflow from a person's source when it is damaged, among other things.
I saw people mention that withstanding conceptual attacks to your concept as physical attacks could qualify as resistance to concept manip (this assumption is probably based off of profiles like this). If the previous statement is true, then I think a few characters in Maou Gakuin could possibly qualify for resistance to concept manip/destruction, as some characters' sources have some sort of "durability", and can seemingly withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks.
Graham's source is able to withstand an <Egil Grone Angdroa>, a magic with at least Low 2-C AP, and Anos states that a power greater than world-destroying power (greater than Low 2-C AP) is needed to destroy Graham's source, so I think it is implied that Graham's source can withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks.
Anos' source is superior to Graham's source and also has this sort of "durability". A few other characters can also withstand conceptual attacks as physical attacks, tho to a weaker degree than Graham and Anos.
I think only Anos and Graham can possibly receive an upgrade from this without other supporting scans tho.
Again, I am currently busy with IRL work for the most part, so I cannot provide a lot of supporting scans atm, and would therefore appreciate any help in gathering scans for this.
Conclusion:
- Add "Limited [Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death)" to all Maou Gakuin characters.
- Remove all "Far higher as approaching destruction" ratings from Anos' tier description, AP and durability justifications, etc.
- Add "[Ability] (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment. In other words, as a person approaches their own death, they gain a permanent yet limited increase in power, which they can then utilise in an attempt to prevent their own death. Additionally, as Anos approaches his own destruction, his power increases infinitely; e.g. This immense increase in power enabled Anos to withstand an <Egil Grone Angdroa> capable of destroying the universe)" to Anos' profile instead.
- I am unsure which [Ability] this power increase qualifies as. This power increase can be statistics amplification, reactive power level, or something else.
- Most characters who are considered mid tiers to top tiers of the verse could possibly qualify for some sort of resistance to conceptual manipulation/destruction, because they can withstand conceptual attacks to their source (concept) as physical attacks. This upgrade is mostly lacking supporting scans however.
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