Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

[Armorchompy]

Original title was "Possible Mario AP Downgrade". The argument has progressed from this, OP isn't relevant to the thread anymore.

Over the course of the last few days, I have worked on a collection of anti-feats for the Super Mario series. Here it is.

I have gathered a total of at minimum 65, likely far more anti-feats that all portray the Mario cast at a level of power far below our current, Galaxy level ratings, which I believe prove them as outliers.

I have taken care to avoid anti-feats that are not legitimate and as such I would ask that everyone who participates in this thread read the sandbox' first sections, not just the list of anti-feats, as I address some possible arguments in it.

In particular, I would like to specify that I am not seeking to downgrade Mario to any specific tier and that the presence of tier 9 feats does not imply I believe the characters to be Wall level, they are simply there to disprove our current 3-C ratings, which is the sole purpose of this CRT.

I would also ask that all sides try to be objective and, especially, I think it'd be good if all parties could keep the discussion civil. Oh, also, please do not edit the sandbox.

 

[Funnimane]

I think it'd be good if all parties could keep the discussion civil.

lol

 

[Deceived3596]

. Here it is.

This isn't the correct link.

Don't believe Sandria Darque is a Mario character.

 

[Armorchompy]

****
hold on

 

[Fikriskps]

Following

 

[Armorchompy]

fixed lol oops

 

[Mariogoods]

I feel that your list of anti-feats should be added in the Mario Series pages in main namespace of VS Battles Wiki, though I'm neutral in 3-C rating.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I would also ask that all sides try to be objective and, especially, I think it'd be good if all parties could keep the discussion civil.

Really hope this does stay civil, past Mario threads have had everyone getting a lil' too heated over the funny bing bing wahoo man.

I'd give my own thoughts about this but I've got a meeting to attend that starts in about 20 minutes.

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[SamanPatou]

I also agree, because I've always considered plain 3-C to be off, given the general portrayal of the series.
Of course talking about new ratings is a whole different story.

 

[Hellbeast]

Chews popcorn

 

[SuperStar]

I think it'd be good if all parties could keep the discussion civil.

Chews popcorn

 

[Armorchompy]

cmon guys

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't want to but I will delete posts that are just pointless baiting like "lol this is gonna be so toxic", so please keep them to a minimum

 

[TMaakkonen]

Mario is not portrayed as cosmic level in most games, so I agree. Especially since those ratings relied on Galaxy games, and future games since have mostly avoided those ratings too.

 

[The_Pink_God]

One of the issues of having a character that's constantly portrayed as your average human in an almost cartoonish way and yet having him make several high-tier feats - sometimes without even knowing such feat is that high - is the severely inconsistent use of the character through the series, and Mario is literally the archetype of that considering his bajillion games
While I do think the 3-C rating is somewhat fine, having 65 counter feats against it kind of weighs in on the other side of the spectrum
Perhaps if Mario does get a downgrade a Varies rating should be done
As of now, I'll stay neutral

 

[Armorchompy]

Perhaps if Mario does get a downgrade a Varies rating should be done

I'm not opposed if evidence for it is found, but Varies usually need actual canon justifications for power variance, not just inconsistent portrayal. So if there was some statement about Mario's power being variable, that would definitely be notable.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Agree with the thread, 3-C should go
Nice work on the sandbox must not have been easy

 

[Pikaman]

Why not just go the Kirby route and make a Mario Galaxy key and pre Mario Galaxy key, that would lessen the amount of anti-feats on the Galaxy key side of things which makes the justifications seem more grounded

 

[Urshani]

agree

 

[Armorchompy]

Why not just go the Kirby route and make a Mario Galaxy key and pre Mario Galaxy key, that would lessen the amount of anti-feats on the Galaxy key side of things which makes the justifications seem more grounded

Well, there's not much of an evidence of power growth in Mario, and what is there is contradicted fairly fast (since just about everyone is always roughly on the same power level, and most of them have no reasons to grow like that). Not only that, but most of the anti-feats come after Galaxy.

 

[The_Pink_God]

I'm not opposed if evidence for it is found, but Varies usually need actual canon justifications for power variance, not just inconsistent portrayal. So if there was some statement about Mario's power being variable, that would definitely be notable.

I think that's just a cartoon case y'know since whoever has the rights to the character does whatever it wants with it, the character doesn't have a consistent portrayal so there's nothing to do but make it a Varies, like Popeye or Spongebob

 

[The_Impress]

Honestly an issue with this listing as far as I can see is, the list isn't consistent with itself.

Like yes 63 SOUNDS like a massive number, but consider this: most of these LIMITING feats wouldn't even be in the same value range as one another, hell many are tiers apart, Bowser gets ****** up by 9-B shit, but then tanks Tier 7 shit as well, ALL EXACTLY IN THE SAME SANDBOX.

Only thing the listing serves to reaffirm is, Mario's inconsistent, we know that, objective in this case would become proving Mario is MORE CONSISTENTLY on a certain tier, and the sandbox isn't presented proper to decipher anything in that regard.

Otherwise this is agenda-rallying against a specific tier.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that's just a cartoon case y'know since whoever has the rights to the character does whatever it wants with it, the character doesn't have a consistent portrayal so there's nothing to do but make it a Varies, like Popeye or Spongebob

I think the concept of cartoon = able to have a Varies has received a lot of pushback recently, in fact Popeye currently doesn't have that. But also, Mario isn't as consistently cartoonish, a lot of the antifeats are in (relatively, it's still a Mario game) serious context.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Fair enough I suppose

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly an issue with this listing as far as I can see is, the list isn't consistent with itself.

Like yes 63 SOUNDS like a massive number, but consider this: most of these LIMITING feats wouldn't even be in the same value range as one another, hell many are tiers apart, Bowser gets ****** up by 9-B shit, but then tanks Tier 7 shit as well, ALL EXACTLY IN THE SAME SANDBOX.

Only thing the listing serves to reaffirm is, Mario's inconsistent, we know that, objective in this case would become proving Mario is MORE CONSISTENTLY on a certain tier, and the sandbox isn't presented proper to decipher anything in that regard.

Otherwise this is agenda-rallying against a specific tier.

All of these feats are under 3-C. I don't see how them being inconsistent with themselves, which I have fully acknowledged already, changes that they show 3-C as outlier-y. And in fact, I have also specified that looking for a new tier for the cast would require its own research and CRT, specifically for that reason among others.

The gap between high 9-B and low tier 8 is also way smaller than between that and 3-C, obviously, and almost all of these anti-feats fall in that ballpark, a ballpark that is consistently trillions of times lower than the current ratings. Its breadth (dozens for most but hundreds at worst) is also much smaller than the difference between it and the current ratings it contradicts.

"Tanks" is also a very strong word considering the only explicitly tier 7 feat in that list sends Bowser, one of the most physically formidable characters among the cast, in a coma.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah being rendered comatose isn't "tanking" in the slightest, it's explicitly a limitation. Not sure what else Mario has though

 

[Dalesean027]

@Armorchompy he won't let you get away with this...

 

[Oleggator]

Over the course of the last few days, I have worked on a collection of anti-feats for the Super Mario series. Here it is.

I have gathered a total of at minimum 65, likely far more anti-feats that all portray the Mario cast at a level of power far below our current, Galaxy level ratings, which I believe prove them as outliers.

I have taken care to avoid anti-feats that are not legitimate and as such I would ask that everyone who participates in this thread read the sandbox' first sections, not just the list of anti-feats, as I address some possible arguments in it.

In particular, I would like to specify that I am not seeking to downgrade Mario to any specific tier and that the presence of tier 9 feats does not imply I believe the characters to be Wall level, they are simply there to disprove our current 3-C ratings, which is the sole purpose of this CRT.

I would also ask that all sides try to be objective and, especially, I think it'd be good if all parties could keep the discussion civil. Oh, also, please do not edit the sandbox.

Not counting Mario Party

Where's Mario Kart though?

Ok but for real, I'll stay neutral for now, but that collection of anti feats is really impressive to say the least, so props to that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Where's Mario Kart though?

Jokes aside, doesn't have anything that can't be discounted as gameplay mechanics

 

[Andytrenom]

You are brave for making this I will give you that

 

[Andytrenom]

I will say this though, if we are listing anti feats that are very far apart from each other, we should also be looking at supporting feats that are not exactly 3-C but close to have a more Fair assessment of things.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm going to be extremely busy the next couple months moving a bunch of furniture; bad enough I have still have a full time blue collar job to work IRL, but I also live as part of a family that wants to move... again....

I have been slowly but surely been losing interest in Mario scaling due to burn out, but I definitely do NOT support going all the way down to Tier 9/8. I agree with the anti-whataboutism statement however, but can think of many other verses that are just as full of unexplained anti-feats that I won't mention. Which basically means NOT ****** ****.

I'm not going to defend 3-C extensively, and I've been less reluctant against variables. But even a plain Unknown rating sounds better than Tier 9.

But in the end, just take this thread slow and remain civil all.

 

[Kyozen]

L

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm going to be extremely busy the next couple months moving a bunch of furniture; bad enough I have still have a full time blue collar job to work IRL, but I also live as part of a family that wants to move... again....

Ah, I'm sorry for making this as a bad time, I didn't know. I'm fine with this debate proceeding as slowly as you'd like, I think your opinion is important.

I agree with the anti-whataboutism statement however, but can think of many other verses that are just as full of unexplained anti-feats that I won't mention.

Well, ideally those should be downgraded too, but I'm sure you'd agree.

Which basically means NOT ****** ****.

I'm not sure I understand. Is this the censored name of a verse you dislike/disagree with the ratings of?

I'm not going to defend 3-C extensively, and I've been less reluctant against variables. But even a plain Unknown rating sounds better than Tier 9.

I'm not suggesting Tier 9 or even necessarily 8 (In fact I'd straight-up oppose any tier 9 ratings, there's a lot of casual tier 8 stuff that I've not included, since they're not anti-feats), merely that we reach a compromise. Right now my goal is just to prove that 3-C is not a consistent or representative rating for the verse.

 

[Andytrenom]

Okay the Bomb ombs stuff I wouldn't take as tier 9 anti feats. They are characters using explosions as their primary form of attacks, for them I think it would be better to see what stuff they scale to rather than cap their explosions at a certain level because of their size. These would still probably be anti feats just not necessarily tier 9 ones

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay the Bomb ombs stuff I wouldn't take as tier 9 anti feats. They are characters using explosions as their primary form of attacks, for them I think it would be better to see what stuff they scale to rather than cap their explosions at a certain level because of their size. These would still probably be anti feats just not necessarily tier 9 ones

Currently we scale fodder enemies (Even strong ones like Chain Chomps or Thwomps), to 8-C, which Bob-Ombs would fall under (some of these explosions might be higher than that). But fair point.

 

[Pikaman]

Well I counted the feats you estimated tiers for

Tier 9 - 25
Tier 8 - 15
Tier 7 - 4

I attributed some feats as points for two different tiers depending on what your estimation was.

So with a handful of Tier 7 feats, and as you yourself said numerous casual tier 8 feats, maybe something like 7-B possibly far higher?

 

[Pikaman]

Well I counted the feats you estimated tiers for

Tier 9 - 25
Tier 8 - 15
Tier 7 - 4

I attributed some feats as points for two different tiers depending on what your estimation was.

So with a handful of Tier 7 feats, and as you yourself said numerous casual tier 8 feats, maybe something like 7-B possibly far higher?

I’m just guessing 7-B though, you’d need to look at the Tier 7 feats and see where they lead us to, I’m just saying somewhere in Tier 7, I’m guessing further analysis will be in favour of 7-B tho

 

[Armorchompy]

Well I counted the feats you estimated tiers for

Tier 9 - 25
Tier 8 - 15
Tier 7 - 4

I attributed some feats as points for two different tiers depending on what your estimation was.

So with a handful of Tier 7 feats, and as you yourself said numerous casual tier 8 feats, maybe something like 7-B possibly far higher?

I appreciate the effort, but I think we should handle the replacement tier if and after enough agreement that 3-C should be removed is garnered.