Possible Heisei Godzilla Downgrade?

[ConsumingFire]

Looking at the page for Godzilla (Heisei), his attack potency, durability, and overall tier appeared too high and so I am in favor of a possible downgrade (which by extension includes most other kaiju from the Heisei Godzilla films) since in the movies (which I honestly haven't seen in years, so please correct me if I'm wrong), Godzilla has displayed the following levels of power:

Mountain Level durability (possibly Island Level) having survived the explosion of Birth Island after his own excess radiation caused the island's uranium deposits to ignite and subsequently explode.

Large Town Level attack potency, which is consistent with his showings throughout that era, although High 7-B/Low 7-A might be possible with the red Spiral Ray. Burning Godzilla could potentially be (at most) 5-B via meltdown as it was implied that he would have vaporized Earth's atmosphere and melted the planet down to the core.

Basing Godzilla's attack power and durability in part on SpaceGodzilla's absorption of stellar energies seems to me inconsistent, as the star had more to do with SG's creation rather than with actual combat ability. Even if he had retained any of it after being "born", by the time SG had made it to Earth he had exhausted all of that power, hence the need for the crystal spires preceding his arrival and the crystal fortress later on.

Also, while SG's cells did indeed survive a black hole, he himself was still capable of being hurt by Godzilla's & M.O.G.U.E.R.A.'s combined attacks and the Spiral Ray at the end of the battle. Does this mean that Godzilla & M.O.G.U.E.R.A. have Star Level attacks? It shouldn't. Otherwise, they would have destroyed the Earth while fighting on it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[HYPERGODZILLA]

I think you are right in some points But you forget that the edit for this wasn't only via SpaceG stelar absortion abilities, It also had powerscaling from Battra who is able to destroy a Massive Planet Buster Meteor, in the same movie Godzilla kill Battra and Nearly Kill Mothra who was said able to deviate the same Meteor. so with that in mind at end of Heisei Era Godzilla isn't Large Star Level but seems legit to say that Heisei Godzilla at best have to be in Large Planet Level.

As a backup

Acording to characters in G vs SG ..... a nearly death SG was near to explode acording to the human characters it would be dangerous since he can destroy everything since Fukuoka to Birth Island. Which actually is a long distance. Birth Island is a long way on south of Japan.

MOGUERA had an amazing durability since he can wistand a directly clash with a Space Godzilla fliying form who is 720.000 tons plus a Massively Hyper Sonic Speed in space since MOGUERA and SG were traveling long distances in the in the Solar Sytem in only few minutes/seconds.

Godzilla Heisei Manga feats include be able to win in a clash of beams with SG who was stated by Mothra Fairies had destroyed many planets before arrive on Earth. Manga versions are based on what was stated on the movies.

 

[ConsumingFire]

I think you are right in some points But you forget that the edit for this wasn't only via SpaceG stelar absortion abilities, It also had powerscaling from Battra who is able to destroy a Massive Planet Buster Meteor, in the same movie Godzilla kill Battra and Nearly Kill Mothra who was said able to deviate the same Meteor. so with that in mind at end of Heisei Era Godzilla isn't Large Star Level but seems legit to say that Heisei Godzilla at best have to be in Large Planet Level.

Agreed. Although, didn't Mothra sacrifice herself to destroy the meteor? I presume that's why she was never seen again for the remainder of the series.

As a backup

Acording to characters in G vs SG ..... a nearly death SG was near to explode acording to the human characters it would be dangerous since he can destroy everything since Fukuoka to Birth Island. Which actually is a long distance. Birth Island is a long way on south of Japan.

I don't remember ever hearing that, but like I said it's been a while so for now I'll take your word for it.

MOGUERA had an amazing durability since he can wistand a directly clash with a Space Godzilla fliying form who is 720.000 tons plus a Massively Hyper Sonic Speed in space since MOGUERA and SG were traveling long distances in the in the Solar Sytem in only few minutes/seconds.

720,000 tons? That sounds to me like a typo on Wikizilla's part. I usually go by Toho Kingdom for height/weight figures and they list SG's flying form at 72,000 tons, which seems more reasonable since they also listed M.O.G.U.E.R.A.'s flight speed in vacuum as Mach 44.

HYPERGODZILLA: wrote Godzilla Heisei Manga feats include be able to win in a clash of beams with SG who was stated by Mothra Fairies had destroyed many planets before arrive on Earth. Manga versions are based on what was stated on the movies.

Hmmm... I am personally unfamiliar with the manga, tbh. Is it at all canon to the Heisei series films?

 

[Skeleturtle]

I actually feel like it should be upgraded to solar system level intead of the downgrade. In movie it was stated that Godzilla's cells get trapped in a black hole, emerged from a white hole and were bombarded with supernova energies. It was stated as a theory in a movie and is largely unquantifieble, but in in the official kaiju guide to the PS3 Godzilla video game we are given the bio of SpaceGodzilla. And it says following: "A mutated organism created from Godzilla's DNA that had been scattered in outer space during a fight with a rival, which subsequently crystallized and synthesized inside a black hole before absorbing the energy of a fixed star".

It means that the genetic material of Godzilla escaped the black hole somehow. Since this was implied to be a natural stellar black hole, there could be only two ways to escape it for Godzilla's cells: either getting converted into a Hawking Radiation (which would imply that Godzilla can regenerate from being transformed into pure energy, which is highly unlikely) or via the collapse of said black hole. We can't measure the energy needed to survive being inside the black hole, so screw that. However, we can calculate the energy needed to survive a black hole collapse. To quote this very wiki: "Black holes do decay over time due to Hawking Radiation, so if you leave a black hole alone and don't feed it anything, it will eventually grow smaller and explode (this type of detonation is a 100% efficient mass-to-energy conversion, with more potential power than a nuke or antimatter explosive). Tiny black holes with masses less than a few trillion tons would evaporate nearly instantly." The smallest stellar black hole discovered has a mass of 3.8 suns. The detonation of such a black hole would give us x119 times the enegy to destroy the solar system. And the cells would have to survive this energies to later absorb the star energy and to form SpaceGodzilla.

And yes, it should mean that MOGUERA, Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla have similar attack potency (applies to all three of them) and durability (may or may not apply to MOGUERA). It makes sense because:

a) Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are made from basically the same genetic material.

b). MOGUERA was specifically build to be an anti-Godzilla weapon, and was build on a base of two previous anti-Godzilla mechs with the help of future technologies.

And no, such an attack doesn't have to be capable of destroying the Earth. Quote from this very wiki: "A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

So IMO instead of downgrading Heisei Godzilla-verse it should be upgraded.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I actually feel like it should be upgraded to solar system level intead of the downgrade. In movie it was stated that Godzilla's cells get trapped in a black hole, emerged from a white hole and were bombarded with supernova energies. It was stated as a theory in a movie and is largely unquantifieble, but in in the official kaiju guide to the PS3 Godzilla video game we are given the bio of SpaceGodzilla. And it says following: "A mutated organism created from Godzilla's DNA that had been scattered in outer space during a fight with a rival, which subsequently crystallized and synthesized inside a black hole before absorbing the energy of a fixed star".
It means that the genetic material of Godzilla escaped the black hole somehow. Since this was implied to be a natural stellar black hole, there could be only two ways to escape it for Godzilla's cells: either getting converted into a Hawking Radiation (which would imply that Godzilla can regenerate from being transformed into pure energy, which is highly unlikely) or via the collapse of said black hole. We can't measure the energy needed to survive being inside the black hole, so screw that. However, we can calculate the energy needed to survive a black hole collapse. To quote this very wiki: "Black holes do decay over time due to Hawking Radiation, so if you leave a black hole alone and don't feed it anything, it will eventually grow smaller and explode (this type of detonation is a 100% efficient mass-to-energy conversion, with more potential power than a nuke or antimatter explosive). Tiny black holes with masses less than a few trillion tons would evaporate nearly instantly." The smallest stellar black hole discovered has a mass of 3.8 suns. The detonation of such a black hole would give us x119 times the enegy to destroy the solar system. And the cells would have to survive this energies to later absorb the star energy and to form SpaceGodzilla.

And yes, it should mean that MOGUERA, Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla have similar attack potency (applies to all three of them) and durability (may or may not apply to MOGUERA). It makes sense because:

a) Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are made from basically the same genetic material.

b). MOGUERA was specifically build to be an anti-Godzilla weapon, and was build on a base of two previous anti-Godzilla mechs with the help of future technologies.

And no, such an attack doesn't have to be capable of destroying the Earth. Quote from this very wiki: "A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

So IMO instead of downgrading Heisei Godzilla-verse it should be upgraded.

Wow, what a long and analytic assessment! I appauld you for that. But if this is true, then Destoroyah should be upgraded too? If Heiseizilla becomes Solar System, then Destoroyah should be higher, right?

 

[Skeleturtle]

Yeah, definitely, since he tanked many shots from even more poweful Spiral Beam than the one that killed SpaceGodzilla. MOGUERA should probably be buffed as well.

Not to mention that Godzilla has FTL reaction and combat speed feat based on SpaceGodzilla's crystals.

 

[Gallavant]

AOE =/ potency arguement


There are also statements from reliable characters regarding the power of Battra and Mothra as well which powerscale up a couple tiers to Space Godzilla, Destoroyah, Burning Godzilla as mentioned earlier

 

[Gallavant]

Yeah, definitely, since he tanked many shots from even more poweful Spiral Beam than the one that killed SpaceGodzilla. MOGUERA should probably be buffed as well.
Not to mention that Godzilla has MFTL reaction and combat speed feat based on SpaceGodzilla's crystals.

Dunno about MFTL anything. Could be outlier considering there's never been a fight outside the solar system where said projectiles were travelling at those speeds

 

[Gallavant]

Yes, the movement speed in space can scale to his projectile speeds, energy beams and what not (as he had used them in a fight with MOGUERA within the asteroid belt) however the relativistic stat is there because most instances/timeframes of Space Godzilla's exoatmospheric movement appeared to give him around relativistic speed within the solar system

 

[Skeleturtle]

Meaning he had to slow down in solar system. Outside of it (when the crystals were shown to be flying faster than him) he should have moved at FTL speeds to reach the Earth from the closest black hole to it.

 

[Gallavant]

It's because the travel speed he had there is not considered "combat-applicable" and therefore not scalable

 

[Skeleturtle]

It's because the travel speed he had there is not considered "combat-applicable" and therefore not scalable

I am not saying anything about travel speed (even though if character is able to move at the speed under his own powers, then his reaction and "combat" speed should be comparable). The only reason why I am mentioning SpaceGodzilla's speed is because his crystals were shown to be much faster. And Godzilla was shooting them down by a dozen. Also, since SpaceGodzilla launches the crystals via telekenesis, this should also apply to his reacion and "combat" speed as well. FTL reaction speed no matter how you slice it, both for Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla, as well as every other monster who scales to them.

 

[Gallavant]

However on a different note, Zone Fighter reacted to Showa King Ghidorah's gravity beams (Or King Ghidorah reacted to Zone Fighter?) while they were in the middle of FTL travelling the Earth-Jupiter distance (one of many FTL travelling instances in that continuity) and this is not noted on the KG profile

 

[Gallavant]

It's because the travel speed he had there is not considered "combat-applicable" and therefore not scalable

I am not saying anything about travel speed (even though if character is able to move at the speed under his own powers, then his reaction and "combat" speed should be comparable). The only reason why I am mentioning SpaceGodzilla's speed is because his crystals were shown to be much faster. And Godzilla was shooting them down by a dozen. Also, since SpaceGodzilla launches the crystals via telekenesis, this should also apply to his reacion and "combat" speed as well. MFTL reaction speed no matter how you slice it, both for Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla, as well as every other monster who scales to them.

Perhaps. Again depending on what this wikia thinks is an outlier.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Then it should be noted as well. Because that's a straightforward "combat speed" feat example. And it should scale to Showa Gigan and Showa Godzilla as well. Plus both Gigan and Ghidorah were travelling from one galaxy to another in a space of several minutes, and Godzilla was able to shoot both of them from the sky. So yeah, a speed buff for Showa Goji won't harm as well.

But that's Showa. We are talking Heisei. Did I convince you why Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla's speed should be changed to FTL?

 

[Gallavant]

Then it should be noted as well. Because that's a straightforward "combat speed" feat example. And it should scale to Showa Gigan and Showa Godzilla as well. Plus both Gigan and Ghidorah were travelling from one galaxy to another in a space of several minutes, and Godzilla was able to shoot both of them from the sky. So yeah, a speed buff for Showa Goji won't harm as well.
But that's Showa. We are talking Heisei. Did I convince you why Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla's speed should be changed to MFTL?

If by speed you mean reactions I guess

Its just funny how I've been arguing against a feat I likely pointed out in the first place.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Yeah, reaction, combar speed, that stuff.

What are you talking about? The crystals stuff or KG and ZF dogfight?

 

[Gallavant]

Both, although I never argued against the latter.


Space Godzilla Traveling through interstellar space

 

[Skeleturtle]

Yup, that's the scene I was talking about. Who could have known that everything you need to make a character FTL is a badly animated flight scene?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Yeah, definitely, since he tanked many shots from even more poweful Spiral Beam than the one that killed SpaceGodzilla. MOGUERA should probably be buffed as well.
Not to mention that Godzilla has FTL reaction and combat speed feat based on SpaceGodzilla's crystals.

So Multi-Solar System level for Destoroyah? Or just Solar System+?

You know, the Godzilla universe is a deceptively powerful verse. Since that some of the movies always portray the monsters as city block level only, I thought that even Natsu from Fairy Tail can beat them. But that was before. Godzilla soloes Fairy Tail.

 

[HYPERGODZILLA]

So Multi-Solar System level for Destoroyah? Or just Solar System+?

You know, the Godzilla universe is a deceptively powerful verse. Since that some of the movies always portray the monsters as city block level only, I thought that even Natsu from Fairy Tail can beat them. But that was before. Godzilla soloes Fairy Tail.

Actually Godzilla can solo Narutoverse, Bleach, AOT, Evangelion,FairyTail, Toriko, Rurouni Kenshin, Inuyasha, Tokyo Ghoul,Parasyte, Akame Ga Kill, Elfen Lied, OPM, YuYu Hakusho, Devil Man etc animes.... and only gets suprased by TengenToppa Guren Lagan, High tiers from Unimeku No Naku Koro Ni, Gods from Saint Seiya and of DBS characters.

 

[Skeleturtle]

So Multi-Solar System level for Destoroyah? Or just Solar System+?

You know, the Godzilla universe is a deceptively powerful verse. Since that some of the movies always portray the monsters as city block level only, I thought that even Natsu from Fairy Tail can beat them. But that was before. Godzilla soloes Fairy Tail.

It's very powerful indeed. Godzilla himself has feats that range from planet level to low multi-solar system (according to the chart on this wiki).

That said, yes, Destroyah should be placed at at least solar system level. Because, well, that my calculation is based on the smallest black hole ever.

Actually, I should probably create a page for Godzilla upgrade. Including the buff for Heisei monsters and some other incarnations as well.

 

[ConsumingFire]

I actually feel like it should be upgraded to solar system level intead of the downgrade. In movie it was stated that Godzilla's cells get trapped in a black hole, emerged from a white hole and were bombarded with supernova energies. It was stated as a theory in a movie and is largely unquantifieble, but in in the official kaiju guide to the PS3 Godzilla video game we are given the bio of SpaceGodzilla. And it says following: "A mutated organism created from Godzilla's DNA that had been scattered in outer space during a fight with a rival, which subsequently crystallized and synthesized inside a black hole before absorbing the energy of a fixed star".

Which, again, had more to do with his creation than anything else.

It means that the genetic material of Godzilla escaped the black hole somehow. Since this was implied to be a natural stellar black hole, there could be only two ways to escape it for Godzilla's cells: either getting converted into a Hawking Radiation (which would imply that Godzilla can regenerate from being transformed into pure energy, which is highly unlikely) or via the collapse of said black hole. We can't measure the energy needed to survive being inside the black hole, so screw that. However, we can calculate the energy needed to survive a black hole collapse. To quote this very wiki: "Black holes do decay over time due to Hawking Radiation, so if you leave a black hole alone and don't feed it anything, it will eventually grow smaller and explode (this type of detonation is a 100% efficient mass-to-energy conversion, with more potential power than a nuke or antimatter explosive). Tiny black holes with masses less than a few trillion tons would evaporate nearly instantly." The smallest stellar black hole discovered has a mass of 3.8 suns. The detonation of such a black hole would give us x119 times the enegy to destroy the solar system. And the cells would have to survive this energies to later absorb the star energy and to form SpaceGodzilla.

There is a third option: SG's cells simply crossed the event horizon of the black hole and exited through a white hole. If the cells can survive the black hole's gravity then that would give reason to believe that they could resist conversion into Hawking radiation.

And yes, it should mean that MOGUERA, Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla have similar attack potency (applies to all three of them) and durability (may or may not apply to MOGUERA). It makes sense because:

a) Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are made from basically the same genetic material.

b). MOGUERA was specifically build to be an anti-Godzilla weapon, and was build on a base of two previous anti-Godzilla mechs with the help of future technologies.

And no, such an attack doesn't have to be capable of destroying the Earth. Quote from this very wiki: "A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

This is where the coupling of wiki rules with displayed feats begins to break down, as it leads to a whole slew of inconsistencies with what is clearly shown in the films. If Heisei Godzilla's durability is listed as "At least Planet Level", then that gives us the bare minimum of what's required to actually hurt him. Anything below that threshold would and should have absolutely no effect whatsoever.

Supermechagodzilla's arsenal clearly falls many orders of magnitudes short of planetary devastation and yet is capable of harming Godzilla, with metal cables, of all things, having been shown able to pierce Godzilla's hide in his most vulnerable area.

On Battra's destruction of a planet-busting asteroid... there is little context given as to what is actually meant by "destroy Earth" (whether it would wipe out all life or literally explode the planet). What is known though is that Mothra took up Battra's mission after Battra was killed. In Godzilla vs Mothra, it is stated that Mothra would be diverting the asteroid's course as opposed to actually destroying it, implying that Battra was originally going to do the same.

So IMO instead of downgrading Heisei Godzilla-verse it should be upgraded.

No.

 

[Skeleturtle]

So what if it's involved in creation? Godzilla's cells survived that. End of story.

That option is only supported by the theory in-universe which is barely supported by anything else. My theory is supported by the official material which doesn't even mention the white hole. If they can resist conversion to Hawking's radiation than they can't escape the black hole. Simple as that. Something with a mass can't escape the black hole unless the have FTL speed, reality warping or time manipulation. And I doubt Godzilla's cells are that capable.

Why do you assume that Mechagodzilla's aresenal can't be planetary or higher? It was build specifically to kill Godzilla, with the help of uber-advanced technology fron the future and based on Godzilla's biological studies. And we don't know what type of metal the cable could have been made. Plus area of effect =/= attack potency. Also, since the cells were able to survive things much more destructive than planetary destruction, it should mean that almost every monster in Heisei series should be scaled to that, not that Godzilla should be downgraded because of that instead.

I am not talking about Mothra or Battra's asteroid anyway.

So yeah, it should be upgraded to solar system instead of being downgraded to town level anyway.

 

[HYPERGODZILLA]

On Battra's destruction of a planet-busting asteroid... there is little context given as to what is actually meant by "destroy Earth" (whether it would wipe out all life or literally explode the planet). What is known though is that Mothra took up Battra's mission after Battra was killed. In Godzilla vs Mothra, it is stated that Mothra would be diverting the asteroid's course as opposed to actually destroying it, implying that Battra was originally going to do the same.

Actually was stated Battra able to destroy the meteor once it was within range, or close enough so that he could shoot his prism eye beams at it

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Huh. So ConsumingFire, why do you think they should be lowered to Large Town Level? There is a lot of evidence pointing towards Planetary Big G you know. I don't know, but your argument reminds me of some other dude from another VS Debate website. Wade, I think?

Regardless, you must at least acknowledge these facts and evidences presented to you. I also thought Godzilla was pretty weak, I mean he never even showed planetbusting feats on screen. But like what the above said, AOE =/= Attack potency.

 

[Gallavant]

The fairies (Cosmos) who said Battra would defend "the Earth" from the meteor, are thousands of years old and have seen global flooding and an entire ancient futuristicly advanced civilization die out in the past, as a result of Battra attempting to "defend "the Earth" from it.

Plus, as explained by the same characters, Battra was birthed by "the Earth" itself (see Gaia theory) in order to defend it from various threats.


There is no immediate context for "the Earth" during the scene, but its there. You have to take into account the environmentalist approach that these/this movie(s) are/is coming from..

 

[ConsumingFire]

So what if it's involved in creation? Godzilla's cells survived that. End of story.

That option is only supported by the theory in-universe which is barely supported by anything else. My theory is supported by the official material which doesn't even mention the white hole. If they can resist conversion to Hawking's radiation than they can't escape the black hole. Simple as that. Something with a mass can't escape the black hole unless the have FTL speed, reality warping or time manipulation. And I doubt Godzilla's cells are that capable.

This is Godzilla we're talking about here. He doesn't necessarily have to be 100% compliant with Real Life physics. He does, however, have to be consistent with what he and others display in-universe.

Also, what official material? If the game guide, then its veracity is questionable as it has no bearing on the films from 20 years earlier.

Why do you assume that Mechagodzilla's aresenal can't be planetary or higher? It was build specifically to kill Godzilla, with the help of uber-advanced technology fron the future and based on Godzilla's biological studies. And we don't know what type of metal the cable could have been made. Plus area of effect =/= attack potency. Also, since the cells were able to survive things much more destructive than planetary destruction, it should mean that almost every monster in Heisei series should be scaled to that, not that Godzilla should be downgraded because of that instead.

I will concede to that line of reasoning.

I am not talking about Mothra or Battra's asteroid anyway.

I only brought it up because it was brought to my attention by HYPERGODZILLA earlier in the discussion.

Actually was stated Battra able to destroy the meteor once it was within range, or close enough so that he could shoot his prism eye beams at it

Okay, I'll give you that one.

Huh. So ConsumingFire, why do you think they should be lowered to Large Town Level? There is a lot of evidence pointing towards Planetary Big G you know. I don't know, but your argument reminds me of some other dude from another VS Debate website. Wade, I think?

Regardless, you must at least acknowledge these facts and evidences presented to you. I also thought Godzilla was pretty weak, I mean he never even showed planetbusting feats on screen. But like what the above said, AOE =/= Attack potency.

My reasons for it are because Large Town Level is what is consistently displayed throughout the films themselves. The only solid evidence for Planet Level destruction is from Burning Godzilla melting down and, apparently, the aforementioned black hole, although the latter is more of a show of durability and resilience.

The fairies (Cosmos) who said Battra would defend "the Earth" from the meteor, are thousands of years old and have seen global flooding and an entire ancient futuristicly advanced civilization die out in the past, as a result of Battra attempting to "defend "the Earth" from it.

Which is why I questioned the context of "the Earth" in the first place. The flooding wiped out all life but did not destroy the Earth itself.

Plus, as explained by the same characters, Battra was birthed by "the Earth" itself (see Gaia theory) in order to defend it from various threats.

This we know. However, simply being born of a planet does not of itself imply Planet Level attack power. What it does imply is the necessary amount of power required to destroy whatever it is that poses a threat of some form to the planet.

Gallavant"] There is no immediate context for "the Earth" during the scene, but its there. You have to take into account the environmentalist approach that these/this movie(s) are/is coming from.. [/quote]
That does actually make some sense. I had forgotten about that part.

 

[Skeleturtle]

As I said already, the consistency issue is solved by scaling. No ordinary human weapons were able to hurt these monsters (exept for Destroyah, but that's because of his specific weakness). As for physics, you can't disregard all laws of physics (especially the ones that weren't implied to be not active) because of one law being disregarded. That's a logical fallacy.

Why is that? It was made by the Toho, it was verified by Toho, it contains the background info that has more canonical weight on canon than what was used as his origin story in movie becuase of it being only an in-universe theory, while the official material is straightforward about it. It having no bearing on the canon is your assumption. The wrong one at that.

The evidence for the upgrade was already presented by me. The cells survived the black hole's collapse, got amped, formed SpaceGodzilla, MOGUERA managed to hurt him, Godzilla blew him up, Destroyah tanked the attack that blew SpaceGodzilla up. Simple as that.

 

[ConsumingFire]

As I said already, the consistency issue is solved by scaling. No ordinary human weapons were able to hurt these monsters (exept for Destroyah, but that's because of his specific weakness). As for physics, you can't disregard all laws of physics (especially the ones that weren't implied to be not active) because of one law being disregarded. That's a logical fallacy.

I wasn't disregarding all physical laws, but was simply pointing out the one that Godzilla or any kaiju never adheres to. All I'm suggesting is that because he is not bound by one of them, it shouldn't surprise anyone here if he were unbound by others.

Why is that? It was made by the Toho, it was verified by Toho, it contains the background info that has more canonical weight on canon than what was used as his origin story in movie becuase of it being only an in-universe theory, while the official material is straightforward about it. It having no bearing on the canon is your assumption. The wrong one at that.

Verified by Toho proper? Toho Kingdom is a site made for fans, by fans. Staff from Toho itself are not involved. The site gets its information from the movies. To claim that a guide for a video game possesses more canonical weight than what was theorized in-universe is simply ridiculous.

The evidence for the upgrade was already presented by me. The cells survived the black hole's collapse, got amped, formed SpaceGodzilla, MOGUERA managed to hurt him, Godzilla blew him up, Destroyah tanked the attack that blew SpaceGodzilla up. Simple as that.

SpaceGodzilla's origin is the monkey wrench in the otherwise largely consistent flow of feats from the Heisei era.

Also, by the time Godzilla finally used the Spiral Ray on him, SpaceGodzilla was already significantly weakened, battle-weary, and without his power source. Of course he blew up. Had he been at full strength, he possibly could have tanked it just as easily, especially with his energy shields.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Saying that Godzilla can ignore all laws of physics because he ignores only one is a logical fallacy though.

Toho Kingdom just shows what is written in the game itself. There was no confirmation from the authors that the theory presented in movie is legit. The game guide however presents a straightforward info about SpaceGodzilla's origin.

It's not a monkey wrench, it just means that everyone before scales to SG because there is nothing to contradict that (nothing ordinary being able to hurt the monsters exept other monsters). They never shown feats on that level because aoe =/= attack potency. The fact that Godzilla was able to destroy his body (made from the cells that survived a black hole) with his own power means that he has a higher output than the black hole's collapse.

 

[ConsumingFire]

Saying that Godzilla can ignore all laws of physics because he ignores only one is a logical fallacy though.

It is, and the fact that Earth's gravity affects him at all proves your point, but that's not what I was originally saying.

Toho Kingdom just shows what is written in the game itself. There was no confirmation from the authors that the theory presented in movie is legit. The game guide however presents a straightforward info about SpaceGodzilla's origin.

If that is the case, then how can we accept the latter?

It's not a monkey wrench, it just means that everyone before scales to SG because there is nothing to contradict that (nothing ordinary being able to hurt the monsters exept other monsters). They never shown feats on that level because aoe =/= attack potency. The fact that Godzilla was able to destroy his body (made from the cells that survived a black hole) with his own power means that he has a higher output than the black hole's collapse.

AOE =/= AP. I understand that. However, AP = AP. With that in mind, the fact that Godzilla's Spiral Ray destroyed a weakened SpaceGodzilla, but not the Earth, means that Godzilla's Spiral Ray =/= Planet Level, which is inconsistent only if we accept the 'black hole collapse' theory as opposed to an alternative approach, such as this:

While a completely correct depiction can not be expected, some basic laws have to be followed. If that is not the case we can not be certain about the black hole being an actual black hole and not just a fake black hole, which can not be assumed to have the properties black holes usually have. -Black Hole feats in fictio.

 

[Skeleturtle]

We can accept the guide being canon since it was verified by Toho, duh.

Weakened or not, his body still consisted of cells. The same cells that survived all that crap back in space. I am not really getting your point now. You just agreed that AoE =/= AP, but then you said that destruction of SpaceGodzilla without the destruction of Earth doesn't make sense.

And you assume the black hole is not the actual black hole because... reasons? There is absolutely no evidence for the black hole to not be a real one, especially considering that both the explanations work with the real black holes. And the first assumptions should be that it's a legit black hole because it is implied to have the properties of a black hole and was not shown/said to have unnatural properties for the black hole. So you now are kinda just making stuff up. The "black holes in fiction" article doesn't adress anything I said anyway.

 

[ConsumingFire]

We can accept the guide being canon since it was verified by Toho, duh.

So long as that is the case, then I am fine with it. For me, it is the nature of the black hole itself that is in question.

Weakened or not, his body still consisted of cells. The same cells that survived all that crap back in space. I am not really getting your point now. You just agreed that AoE =/= AP, but then you said that destruction of SpaceGodzilla without the destruction of Earth doesn't make sense.

What I mean is that an attack (based on the logic of AOE =/= AP) can have an AOE which is rather contained while still being capable of causing cataclysmic levels of destruction if powerful enough. SG's durability is, at its minimum, Planet Level according to his character profile on this very wiki. This means that one would need at least this much power, whether the AOE of the attack used against him was planetary in scale or not, in order to harm him (or in the case of his weakened state, destroy him). Godzilla, with his Spiral Ray, got the job done and yet somehow managed to avoid destroying the Earth in the process. In Godzilla vs Destoroyah, he did so agai as Burning Godzilla, after having his son murdered by Destoroyah. Only this time, in his roaring rampage of revenge, was he arguably pulling out all the stops in the power department in his attempts to completely annihilate Destoroyah and avenge Junior. During the course of the battle (1:20:40 - 1:34:34), there were a number of occasions where a few of these Spiral Rays made direct contact with the Earth. The fact that not a single one managed to blow up even half the planet when Godzilla was at his most powerful and holding nothing back, speaks volumes.

And you assume the black hole is not the actual black hole because... reasons? There is absolutely no evidence for the black hole to not be a real one, especially considering that both the explanations work with the real black holes. And the first assumptions should be that it's a legit black hole because it is implied to have the properties of a black hole and was not shown/said to have unnatural properties for the black hole. So you now are kinda just making stuff up. The "black holes in fiction" article doesn't adress anything I said anyway.

My reason for offering this suggestio is that it is the only option that makes any semblance of sense in the face of the colossal power disparity between what is shown directly and what is implied from theory.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Oh god. That thing you just said? It's the proof of AoE =/= AP stuff. Take Dragon Ball for example - the people who can casually blew up planets, stars and solar systems regularly fight on populated planets and even though their energy beams regularly collide with the planet, it doesn't go boom. Read the article about attack potency here - it specifically mentions that the attack could be concentrated enough not to cause such a level of destruction but to hurt and destroy characters with durability on such a level. Godzilla being able to fire beams with energy potent enough to destroy a solar system or even more without blowing up a planet is that case exactly.

So yeah, the black hole being a real one doesn't contradict anything.

 

[ConsumingFire]

Oh god. That thing you just said? It's the proof of AoE =/= AP stuff. Take Dragon Ball for example - the people who can casually blew up planets, stars and solar systems regularly fight on populated planets and even though their energy beams regularly collide with the planet, it doesn't go boom. Read the article about attack potency here - it specifically mentions that the attack could be concentrated enough not to cause such a level of destruction but to hurt and destroy characters with durability on such a level. Godzilla being able to fire beams with energy potent enough to destroy a solar system or even more without blowing up a planet is that case exactly.

So yeah, the black hole being a real one doesn't contradict anything.

Well okay then. Congratulations, I concede. It still doesn't make sense to me, but at least the wiki admits this much:

Take note that we are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we have to overlook it.

^which is really where my whole tangent arose from to begin with.

EDIT: However, some things still don't sit well with me, such as being able to quantify a black hole collapse or the simple matter of assuming a collapse occurred in the first place in light of potential alternative scenarios like the one I proposed earlier.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

I have a question about something. In Godzilla vs. Biollante (I think), Godzilla's atomic breath struggled to melt a diamond mirror, melting it only after many shots. The melting point of diamond is around 4400 degrees Celsius IIRC. Godzilla was also hurt by his own atomic breath being deflected back at himself multiple times. Does that mean anything for Heisei Godzilla's attack potency and durability?

 

[ConsumingFire]

I have a question about something. In Godzilla vs. Biollante (I think), Godzilla's atomic breath struggled to melt a diamond mirror, melting it only after many shots. The melting point of diamond is around 4400 degrees Celsius IIRC. Godzilla was also hurt by his own atomic breath being deflected back at himself multiple times. Does that mean anything for Heisei Godzilla's attack potency and durability?

It shouldn't be an issue since the version of Heisei Godzilla this wiki currently sticks to whenever "Heisei Godzilla" is brought up is the one that resulted from the time traveling shenanigans of Godzilla vs King Ghidorah as opposed to the somewhat weaker one from The Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs Biollante, which is almost never used here. The character page lumps them together for some reason despite the fact that they're separate beasts from parallel timelines.

 

[Gallavant]

I have a question about something. In Godzilla vs. Biollante (I think), Godzilla's atomic breath struggled to melt a diamond mirror, melting it only after many shots. The melting point of diamond is around 4400 degrees Celsius IIRC. Godzilla was also hurt by his own atomic breath being deflected back at himself multiple times. Does that mean anything for Heisei Godzilla's attack potency and durability?

No. Prior to the time travelling he didn't have that many impressive feats, and he wasn't visibly wounded to any significant degree anyway

For example in Toriko, the main character was hurt by an attack from Starjun reaching 6000 degrees celsius despite having previously fought creatures that crushed entire continents and withstood firepower specifically stated to be capable of leveling a square meter area larger than Europe. No one takes that as a serious determiner of his durability though. Due to the frequent disparity in fiction between "temperature durability" and "actual durability", on some forums (I'm not sure about this one, probably not) they are often considered separate.

 

[ZillaJrKaijuKing]

Okay, but I have one more concern. Yesterday, I saw in Toho Kingdom's monster bios that MOGUERA's article states that its plasma maser cannon is "said to be 5 times stronger than the MBT-92 maser tanks." IIRC, these were strong enough to hurt Heisei Godzilla about as much if not less than his own atomic breath before the power boost (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while). There doesn't seem to be any reason to think the same model of tank got a power boost between timelines (I think the huge diamond crystal was still treated as a big deal in Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla II), so that would imply Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla could be hurt by an attack only 5 times stronger than the MBT-92 maser tanks, which were equal to if not less than an atomic breath barely strong enough to melt (or even break) diamond.

Is that just another disparity between "actual durability" and "temperature durability" (this is my first time hearing about that)? Or does this mean planet/star/solar system Heisei Godzilla is an inconsistency? What about the fact that the atomic breath didn't shatter the diamond, either?

Can anyone more accurately quantify the power output of the MBT-92 maser tanks?