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Possible Heisei Godzilla Downgrade?

Why not just take the firepower of the cannons as planet/star/solar system? Godzillaversescience is far ahead of the real world one. Also, IIRC Godzilla was never hurt by these cannons anyway. Also, Toho Kingdom bios are not what you can consider a relieble source. Showa KG's bio states that he is star buster, for example.
 
Skeleturtle said:
Why not just take the firepower of the cannons as planet/star/solar system?
If the beams were weaker than another beam that was barely strong enough to break/melt diamond, they weren't planet/star/solar system level.

Skeleturtle said:
Also, Toho Kingdom bios are not what you can consider a relieble source. Showa KG's bio states that he is star buster, for example.
Yeah, I'd need to verify Toho Kingdom's claim. I'll probably ask around.

Skeleturtle said:
Also, IIRC Godzilla was never hurt by these cannons anyway.
I'll have to check that, too.
 
A couple concerns were brought up in Toho Kingdom the other day about the feats used for SpaceGodzilla's (and by extension Heisei Godzilla's) stats.

(1) SpaceGodzilla is Star Level because his cells were stated to have absorbed radiation from a supernova. Why are we assuming his cells absorbed all of the supernova's radiation? We don't know how close the cells were to the explosion. How do we know they didn't absorb radiation that travelled lightyears before getting to them?

(2) I have another question about Planetoid to Planet Level Battra/Mothra. They were stated to be able to destroy a meteor capable of destroying the Earth. Why are we assuming they destroyed the asteroid in one attack? Didn't Battra have years to destroy it?

(3) I noticed that "Heisei Godzilla I" is labeled as Continent Level because he's "inferior to Heisei Godzilla II" without any indication of Continent Level feats for Heisei I. That sounds like an awfully vague statement for justifying Continent Level.
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
A couple concerns were brought up in Toho Kingdom the other day about the feats used for SpaceGodzilla's (and by extension Heisei Godzilla's) stats.
I honestly have no idea why others are assuming that it absorbed all the energy. The details as to what happened within the black hole were never specified in the film, and we're only told that SpaceGodzilla "was exposed to tremendous energies from exploding stars", with absolutely no indication that anything was "absorbed" per se, though it is within the realm of reasonable feasibility (SG feeds on cosmic rays after all). I personally view the entire black hole debacle as an example of an inconsistent feat which shouldn't be used to scale tiers from. The black hole in question actually has more evidence in favor of it being a "fake" black hole, as defined by the wiki,

"While a completely correct depiction can not be expected, some basic laws have to be followed. If that is not the case, we can not be certain about the black hole being an actual black hole and not just a fake black hole, which can not be assumed to have the properties black holes usually have." -Black Hole feats in fictio

^To me the nature of the black hole in Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla is too inconsistent with real black holes to be a "real" one, and in my opinion it shouldn't be assumed to be one.

(3) I noticed that "Heisei Godzilla I" is labeled as Continent Level because he's "inferior to Heisei Godzilla II" without any indication of Continent Level feats for Heisei I. That sounds like an awfully vague statement for justifying Continent Level.
I'm the one who made that addition. I personally don't believe it is valid myself, however I simply scaled off of the current tier rankings for the other forms of Heisei Godzilla in order to avoid controversy.
 
Hmm. We should probably ask Gallavant about this. I think that he wrote the current version of the statistics.
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
(2) I have another question about Planetoid to Planet Level Battra/Mothra. They were stated to be able to destroy a meteor capable of destroying the Earth. Why are we assuming they destroyed the asteroid in one attack? Didn't Battra have years to destroy it?
Mothra had years to destroy it, but Battra was going to destroy the meteor when it to be within range of the planet

ConsumingFire said:
although I question as to whether that feat should even be classified as Planet level since we don't even know the size of the asteroid but only that it could "destroy Earth", which itself leaves the notion of planetary destruction pretty ambiguous since the wording used could easily be interpreted to mean life-wiping planetary devastation as opposed to Earth itself being destroyed by the impact.


I've already explained the context of this, what the characters in question making the statement considered "Earth" to be
 
Gallavant said:
I've already explained the context of this, what the characters in question making the statement considered "Earth" to be
I understand that. However, being able to destroy an asteroid shouldn't really be classified as a strictly Planet Level feat due to the asteroid's inherently smaller size. The idea of a "destroyed Earth" like the Shobijin were describing seems more consistent if it were a life-wiper threat both because that's what the global flood Battra was previously awakened to prevent would have done alongside asteroids possessing the power to do likewise. The environmental overtones of a threat to the global ecosystem makes this view seem to me more probable.

From my previous post, large asteroids have smacked the Earth hard in the past but with only negligible damage to the planet's surface crust. To destroy the Earth itself would require a direct impact from an object roughly the size of Mars traveling at around Mach 280, but even that would likely not be enough to overcome the Earth's gravitational binding energy. Finally, to actually obliterate Earth, so that the planet is reduced to space rubble, would have to be from something like a supernova right next to it. No asteroid or planet impact has that level of power.
 
ConsumingFire said:
I understand that. However, being able to destroy an asteroid shouldn't really be classified as a strictly Planet Level feat due to the asteroid's inherently smaller size. The idea of a "destroyed Earth" like the Shobijin were describing seems more consistent if it were a life-wiper threat both because that's what the global flood Battra was previously awakened to prevent would have done alongside asteroids possessing the power to do likewise. The environmental overtones of a threat to the global ecosystem makes this view seem to me more probable.
From my previous post, large asteroids have smacked the Earth hard in the past but with only negligible damage to the planet's surface crust. To destroy the Earth itself would require a direct impact from an object roughly the size of Mars traveling at around Mach 280, but even that would likely not be enough to overcome the Earth's gravitational binding energy. Finally, to actually obliterate Earth, so that the planet is reduced to space rubble, would have to be from something like a supernova right next to it. No asteroid or planet impact has that level of power.
If you're right about the flood thing (it's been a while since I've watched the movie), should Battra/Mothra be changed to Continent Level, Possibly Small Planet Level? Both meanings seem plausible from the wording and context.

What about Star Level SpaceGodzilla? Is that one speculative enough to be changed?
 
He didn't prevent the global flood though. And some sources and/or translations say the machines were life force draining the planet
 
R4 translation of Godzilla vs Mothra (1992), the one that says this, is supposedly the accurate one

http://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3646

http://www.allreadable.com/mv12852HqZX

http://i.imgur.com/ZBXPmJc.png


"

Twelve thousand years ago, we Cosmos

knew Mothra as the protector of the earth.

We had no hatred or war. We lived in perfect harmony.

But then, a group of scientists created twelve machines...

...designed to drain the life force of the earth.

The earth's life force?

The earth had no choice but to protect itself.

It did something to stop the machines?

Yes...

It gave birth to a black Mothra.

A black Mothra?

It was Battra...

Battra's destructive power is equal to Mothra's.

The earth used it to punish the Cosmos.

Mothra and the Cosmos fought Battra, and

we defeated it in the northern ice region.

But Battra destroyed our weather-control machines...

...and large floods eventually covered our Island.

Mothra and the remaining Cosmos climbed our highest mountain to escape the floods. "
 
That would further imply that the desctruction of life on Earth could be a valid interpretation of "the Earth being destroyed" as opposed to breaking the planet apart.
 
Gallavant said:
He didn't prevent the global flood though. And some sources and/or translations say the machines were life force draining the planet
I completely forgot about the machines. It's been years since I last watched Godzilla vs Mothra but from the translations you provided the threat level to Earth still seems like it would be closer to a global life-wiping range rather than actual planetary destruction. Sure, Earth's "life force" would have been depleted but as for the planet itself, Earth might have simply been left dead and uninhabitable instead of physically breaking apart since as with other "dead" worlds, gravity should still play a role in holding Earth together whether it is alive or not.
 
Perhaps it would be best if Heisei Godzilla was downgraded from Planet level to either Country level or Continent level, in that case?

Also, someone should calculate SpaceGodzilla's surface area / volume in case someone wants to know how much energy he'd recieve from surving a point-blank supernova explosion because I doubt a building sized monster would recieve star or even planet busting levels of energy because of how much incredibly smaller they are than a celestial object. This is assuming he was even exposed to a supernova's explosive blast in the first place rather than simply absorbing some of the radioactive energy from it.
 
What do you think about a potential downgrade Gallavant, and which profiles should I temporarily unlock so people here can edit them in that case?
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
Maybe someone could calculate how big an asteroid would have to be to be considered life-wiping rather than planet busting?
There are many factors that goes into it like the velocity. It would take around 1.602176487E+28 J so about 60-100 miles in diameter for an asteroid to life-wipe.
 
Are you totally sure the meteor is not planet buster??

[[1]]

Characters ask

So, will this meteor destroy the Earth??

Answer : YES

if doesn't mention somenthing like

So, will this meteor destroy All life on Earth.??

As I said it clears says Earth.
 
It was brought up that, from context, life-wiping is another possible interpretation of the statement because draining the life force of Earth without busting the planet was enough reason for Battra's creation. This is similar to how King Ghidorah rendered Venus barren (by destroying its surface) and how Desghidorah rendered Mars barren (by draining its energy) without busting the planets.
 
Depends, I don't exactly know the velocity or where the asteroid would hit so this is an assumption. But an asteroid that size probably wouldn't destroy the planet. Take a look at This if you want to find out how destructive it would be.
 
Algaro said:
Depends, I don't exactly know the velocity or where the asteroid would hit so this is an assumption. But an asteroid that size probably wouldn't destroy the planet. Take a look at This if you want to find out how destructive it would be.
Average asteroid velocity is 25-30 km per second

[[1]]
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
It was brought up that, from context, life-wiping is another possible interpretation of the statement because draining the life force of Earth without busting the planet was enough reason for Battra's creation. This is similar to how King Ghidorah rendered Venus barren (by destroying its surface) and how Desghidorah rendered Mars barren (by draining its energy) without busting the planets.
But Battra's mision is protect Planet Earth not humans, animals etc on it.

'Earth was in a big dangerous of being dretoyed by the meteorite. Battra was supossed to protec Earth destroying it. Not living things on the planet.

as example Battra was destroying an advanced Past civilization to protect Earth. So yes Battra doesn't care about life on Earth, he/she cares only about Planet Earth security.

This validates more the Planet Buster Meteor than the life wiper one you talk about.
 
HYPERGODZILLA said:
But Battra's mision is protect Planet Earth not humans, animals etc on it.''''Earth was in a big dangerous of being dretoyed by the meteorite. Battra was supossed to protec Earth destroying it. Not living things on the planet.
as example Battra was destroying an advanced Past civilization to protect Earth. So yes Battra doesn't care about life on Earth, he/she cares only about Planet Earth security.

This validates more the Planet Buster Meteor than the life wiper one you talk about.

The point of the examples was to show that planets could die in the Toho universe without being broken into pieces, so surface destruction is still a possible interpretation of the statement.

The Shobijins' own story about life-draining machines is another example of the Earth being in danger of dying without the planet breaking into pieces.
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
The point of the examples was to show that planets could die in the Toho universe without being broken into pieces, so surface destruction is still a possible interpretation of the statement.

The Shobijins' own story about life-draining machines is another example of the Earth being in danger of dying without the planet breaking into pieces.
You have a point here. But as is still possible interpretation of this statement

Is also possible interpretation for the Planet Buster Meteor.

I mean Toho has made Planet Busters meteors before like Gorath.

So there are 2 interpretations of this. How you going to change the profiles acroding to this is what I want to see.

In that case even if this is only a Life-Wiper meteorite how this would change Battra's profile?? in which Tier list she/he will be now??

At least She/he would be Small Country level at least even knowing Battra is a potential Life Wiper as King Ghidorah Showa, as a back up cos of Low Tier Godzilla Jr is able to survive a Infant Island Nuclear Explosio

[[1]]
 
HYPERGODZILLA said:
You have a point here. But as is still possible interpretation of this statement

Is also possible interpretation for the Planet Buster Meteor.

I mean Toho has made Planet Busters meteors before like Gorath.

So there are 2 interpretations of this. How you going to change the profiles acroding to this is what I want to see.

In that case even if this is only a Life-Wiper meteorite how this would change Battra's profile?? in which Tier list she/he will be now??

At least She/he would be Country level at least even knowing Battra is a potnetial Life Wiper as King Ghidorah Showa, as a back up cos of Low Tier Godzilla Jr is able to survive a Infant Island Nuclear Explosio

[[1]]
Gorath isn't in the Heisei era, though, and if the changes to the tiers are ever made, then Battra would likely fall somewhere within the Tier 7 or 6 range as opposed to 5 and up.

Junior did indeed survive Birth Island's explosion, and while he may yet be stronger than this, surviving that explosion would put Junior's durability at Island level as a bare minimum based on what we know. Heisei Godzilla survived the same explosion (though the excess radiation did destabilize his heart), so that would put him on at least this same tier level as well.
 
HYPERGODZILLA said:
You have a point here. But as is still possible interpretation of this statement

Is also possible interpretation for the Planet Buster Meteor.

I mean Toho has made Planet Busters meteors before like Gorath.

So there are 2 interpretations of this. How you going to change the profiles acroding to this is what I want to see.

In that case even if this is only a Life-Wiper meteorite how this would change Battra's profile?? in which Tier list she/he will be now??

At least She/he would be Small Country level at least even knowing Battra is a potential Life Wiper as King Ghidorah Showa, as a back up cos of Low Tier Godzilla Jr is able to survive a Infant Island Nuclear Explosio

[[1]]
Why do you bold your comments?

The profiles probably should be updated to Country to Continent Level, possibly Planet Level (assuming the destruction of the meteor is Country to Continent Level) from the Shobijins' statements since we now have two possibilities.

The destruction of Birth Island could serve as a minimum for their durability, although I have to ask why the calculation you linked uses pulverization of rock rather than fragmentation. I once saw another calculation for this feat giving a yield of several hundred megatons, although now that I think about it, assuming pulverization from presumed nuclear explosions sounds plausible.
 
Algaro said:
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
Maybe someone could calculate how big an asteroid would have to be to be considered life-wiping rather than planet busting?
There are many factors that goes into it like the velocity. It would take around 1.602176487E+28 J so about 60-100 miles in diameter for an asteroid to life-wipe.
1.602176487E+28 joules = 3.82929371 exatons of TNT equivalent or Multi-Continent level

Assuming this downgrade is accepted, this would apply to Battra, Mothra, Mechagodzilla, Moguera, King Ghidorah, Mecha-King Ghidorah, Base form Godzilla (Heisei II), Spacegodzilla, Burning Godzilla, and Destoroyah by default.

Biollante and Base form Godzilla (Heisei I) should be at listed as "at least Continent level+, possibly Multi-Continent level" for likely being at least somewhat comparable with the later Heisei monsters.

It should also be noted that this calc here has the energy output for Burning Godzilla's Meltdown listed as 7.406197492E+29 joules or 177.012368 exatons of TNT equivalent, which is Moon level.

With that in mind, my suggestion for Burning Godzilla's attack potency would be" "Multi-Continent level normally, at least Moon level, likely Planet level via Meltdown"
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
Why do you bold your comments?

The profiles probably should be updated to Country to Continent Level, possibly Planet Level (assuming the destruction of the meteor is Country to Continent Level) from the Shobijins' statements since we now have two possibilities.

The destruction of Birth Island could serve as a minimum for their durability, although I have to ask why the calculation you linked uses pulverization of rock rather than fragmentation. I once saw another calculation for this feat giving a yield of several hundred megatons, although now that I think about it, assuming pulverization from presumed nuclear explosions sounds plausible.
Sorry but I have to. I suffer from a disease of the right eye

I lost the vision of one of my eyes because of a glaucoma

I nearly lost the vision in my left eye too.

Please take a look on thi link I leave you and click in "Learn About Galucoma". So you can see how I see the world every day with a dead eye and a partial dead one.


[[1]]

I use a patch over my dead eye..... and to compensate that I only use my left Eye

I use my computer with a low level of luminescence.

Anyway I'm agree with you this profile also would change the others like Heisei Godzilla, Destroyah, SpaceGodzilla, Super-Mecha Godzilla, Mecha King Ghidorah and the others.
 
Gerdkinerf said:
1.602176487E+28 joules = 3.82929371 exatons of TNT equivalent or Multi-Continent level

Assuming this downgrade is accepted, this would apply to Battra, Mothra, Mechagodzilla, Moguera, King Ghidorah, Mecha-King Ghidorah, Base form Godzilla (Heisei II), Spacegodzilla, Burning Godzilla, and Destoroyah by default.

Biollante and Base form Godzilla (Heisei I) should be at listed as "at least Continent level+, possibly Multi-Continent level" for likely being at least somewhat comparable with the later Heisei monsters.

It should also be noted that this calc here has the energy output for Burning Godzilla's Meltdown listed as 7.406197492E+29 joules or 177.012368 exatons of TNT equivalent, which is Moon level.

With that in mind, my suggestion for Burning Godzilla's attack potency would be" "Multi-Continent level normally, at least Moon level, likely Planet level via Meltdown"
This sounds legit to me. I found thi calc about Destroyah

Credits goes to Gallavant.


New calc pertaining to micro-oxygen, Destoroyah's source of power:

http://www.t5forums.com/forum/the-v...lcs/185162-godzilla-1954-the-oxygen-destroyer

This is in the coments below with the correction of the calc.


As a result was obtained 613 Petatons minimum for a "small piece" of micro-oxygen to atomically asphixiate the entirety of Tokyo Bay (Multi Continent level+)

And this micro-oxygen spitting kaiju right here is well.. Destroyah.
 
There are many factors that goes into it like the velocity. It would take around 1.602176487E+28 J so about 60-100 miles in diameter for an asteroid to life-wipe.
1.602176487E+28 joules = 3.82929371 exatons of TNT equivalent or Multi-Continent level

Assuming this downgrade is accepted, this would apply to Battra, Mothra, Mechagodzilla, Moguera, King Ghidorah, Mecha-King Ghidorah, Base form Godzilla (Heisei II), Spacegodzilla, Burning Godzilla, and Destoroyah by default.

Biollante and Base form Godzilla (Heisei I) should be at listed as "at least Continent level+, possibly Multi-Continent level" for likely being at least somewhat comparable with the later Heisei monsters.

It should also be noted that this calc here has the energy output for Burning Godzilla's Meltdown listed as 7.406197492E+29 joules or 177.012368 exatons of TNT equivalent, which is Moon level.

With that in mind, my suggestion for Burning Godzilla's attack potency would be" "Multi-Continent level normally, at least Moon level, likely Planet level via Meltdown"


I completely agree with this. I realize that I listed BG as Planet level via meltdown before but upon looking into the matter further, melting through the Earth in a China Syndrome scenario as Burning Godzilla would have supposedly done is impossible to accomplish in Real Life as such a meltdown would be unable to melt through the at least 30 km thick crust of our planet and likewise be unable to overcome Earth's gravity even if it hypothetically made its way to the core. Also, any hole made would immediately be subject to immense lithostatic pressure and be filled.

@HYPERGODZILLA: Sorry to hear about your eye. :(
 
ConsumingFire said:
@HYPERGODZILLA: Sorry to hear about your eye. :(
Thanks!!.. well to be honest at the beginning it was hard...... you know You can loss a lot with diseases, but lost vision is the worst thing that can happen to anyone that love to see the world, it could be worse nearly lose vision in both eyes. but life goes on.... and now I am used to it'.

Now my friends call me Kaneki for the patch in my eye Kaneki is the main character from Tokyo Ghoul :)

Ken Kaneki
 
Gerdkinerf said:
1.602176487E+28 joules = 3.82929371 exatons of TNT equivalent or Multi-Continent level
Assuming this downgrade is accepted, this would apply to Battra, Mothra, Mechagodzilla, Moguera, King Ghidorah, Mecha-King Ghidorah, Base form Godzilla (Heisei II), Spacegodzilla, Burning Godzilla, and Destoroyah by default.

Biollante and Base form Godzilla (Heisei I) should be at listed as "at least Continent level+, possibly Multi-Continent level" for likely being at least somewhat comparable with the later Heisei monsters.

It should also be noted that this calc here has the energy output for Burning Godzilla's Meltdown listed as 7.406197492E+29 joules or 177.012368 exatons of TNT equivalent, which is Moon level.

With that in mind, my suggestion for Burning Godzilla's attack potency would be" "Multi-Continent level normally, at least Moon level, likely Planet level via Meltdown"

I'm a little uncertain about assuming the pre-power boost monsters are "at least Continent Level+" without more evidence. Heisei Godzilla I didn't really have many noteworthy feats.

The calculation for the destruction of Earth's core looks good enough, but I mostly skimmed it. Is "likely Planet Level" really fitting for just core destruction?

I'll wait to hear what others have to say about Gallavant's micro-oxygen calculation. I was under the impression that micro-oxygen was a chemical weapon that operated via chain reaction.
 
I think it's reasonable, given that that they shouldn't be too far behind the post-power boost monsters. Would a "at least Continent level, possibly Continent level+ to Multi-Continent" rating be better?

To be fair, Burning Godzilla's meltdown would have possibly destroyed the entire planet itself and not just the core.

Perhaps "At least Moon level, possibly Planet level" would be best?
 
Just wanted to point out that the largest known asteroid to hit Earth was the Vredefort impactor which struck Earth 2 billion years ago in what is today South Africa. It is thought to have been anywhere from 5 to 10 km in diameter and traveling at a rate of 20km/s (Mach 58). Now, using the calculator provided by Algaro, I got this result:

Distance from Impact: 20000.00 km ( = 12400.00 miles )
Projectile diameter: 5.00 km ( = 3.11 miles ) Projectile Density: 2000 kg/m3 Impact Velocity: 20.00 km per second ( = 12.40 miles per second ) Impact Angle: 45 degrees Target Density: 2500 kg/m3 Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

Energy before atmospheric entry: 2.62 x 1022 Joules = 6.25 x 106 MegaTons TNT The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 1.9 x 107 years

The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass. The impact does not make a noticeable change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< 5 hundreths of a degree). The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Transient Crater Diameter: 34.8 km ( = 21.6 miles ) Transient Crater Depth: 12.3 km ( = 7.64 miles )

Final Crater Diameter: 55.5 km ( = 34.5 miles ) Final Crater Depth: 992 meters ( = 3250 feet ) The crater formed is a complex crater. The volume of the target melted or vaporized is 164 km3 = 39.4 miles3 Roughly half the melt remains in the crater, where its average thickness is 173 meters ( = 566 feet ).

The major seismic shaking will arrive approximately 1.11 hours after impact. Richter Scale Magnitude: 9.1 Mercalli Scale Intensity at a distance of 20000 km:

Nothing would be felt. However, seismic equipment may still detect the shaking.
^So with this, and with a significant margin of error as I am not the best when it comes to calcs, we have 6.25 Teratons as an extreme low-end for the asteroid, which according to our Attack Potency chart is Small Country level.

Using the same calculator, if we threw Ceres, the largest object in the Asteroid Belt, toward Earth at the same rate and distance as the Vredefort impactor, we'd get hit with 45.6 Petatons of force, which would be Continent level. Hypothetically, if Battra's asteroid were around the size of either Vredefort or Ceres then we should expect to see similar results.
 
Gerdkinerf said:
There's also this asteroid from 3.3 billion years ago that impacted South Africa.

Full article here
Wait a minute... I think that might be the same asteroid and the article I used underestimated both its time of arrival and the size of the asteroid itself since the crater formed by this one is 300 miles in diameter which is the same size as the one I linked to and also happens to have hit the same location while traveling at the same speed. If this is the case, then the low-end result of an impact from something like this would be roughly 10.1 Petatons or Continent level.

Reading back, I actually linked an article to that same asteroid earlier in the discussion... >_>
 
Do you think you could calculate the high-end result from that impact? I know it'd still be Continent level, but it'd still be a good idea to know the energy range of the impact.
 
Gerdkinerf said:
Do you think you could calculate the high-end result from that impact? I know it'd still be Continent level, but it'd still be a good idea to know the energy range of the impact.
Should be around 39 petatons. Granted, for these calcs I am using the density of iron (8000 kg/m3) for the asteroid. If it were mostly dense rock (3000 kg/m3) then the low end should be around 3.8 teratons with a high end of 14.6 petatons.
 
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