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Possible Bleach Downgrade (Aizen/Ichigo/Yhwach)

BarryAllen2.0

BarryAllen2.0

609
32
I'm reading some bleach profiles and I'm trying to figure out how exactly Moon level Ichigo and Aizen is a thing really given in verse feats. I'm looking at their profiles and for Aizen it says:

AP: At Least Moon level, Likely Higher via power-scaling (Comparable to Ichigo)

Durability: At least Moon level, Likely higher (Tanked Yhwach's Shadows/Darkness)

Ichigo:

AP: At Least Moon level, Likely Higher (Bisected Yhwach Twice)

Durability: At least Moon level, Likely Higher (Took multiple Hits from Yhwach)

Yhwach:

AP: No Mention of Moon Level

Durability: At least Moon Level, possibly higher via power-scaling from Aizen.

Now this means that everything scales from Yhwach. But what I don't get is, where is moon level Yhwach coming from? Sure, he is far superior to moon level via statements but he has no feats of moon level anything to denote Ichigo/Aizen getting a Moon level Buff.

Yhwach said the Ichigo who cut down SK once again held the power to defeat Aizen which would make Shikai Ichigo Country Level as it is on his page. Same Ichigo who in his fight with Yhwach was getting beat down casually (Ref. Chapters 672-675). This can't be the feats in which Ichigo's Durability is scaled from. All these chapters prove is that a casual SK Yhwach is At Least Country Level, Likely higher (Casually knocked around Shikai Ichigo).

Ichigo then releases his Hollow/Quincy Powers as well getting an unknown buff in power and Yhwach still casually toys with him stating Ichigo was of his league nor had the strength/power to pierce him demonstrated several times where as Yhwach still could casually harm Ichigo (Ref. Chapters 676-677) this would make ichigo and still casual Yhwach Unknow in AP and for Ichigo Durability as well.

As soon as Ichigo goes Bankai, he doesn't get the chance to showcase his power. Yhwach Breaks his Zanpakuto and proceeds to stomp the ever loving shit out of Ichigo then steals his Hollow/Quincy powers. Even then, Bankai ichigo cannot take Yhwachs attacks and both Yhwach and Ichigo are still Unknown in power (Ref. Chapter 678). Yhwach would have to be listed as Unknown (Easily Defeated Bankai Ichigo) and Ichigo would have to be listed as unknow (Superior to enhanced Shikai in Bankai).

Aizen being scaled to Ichigo would have to be listed as unknow (Comparable to Ichigo). As far as I'm seeing, barring any calc, At least moon level, likely higher is an assumption with no scans to back it up with simply based on the fact that Yhwach is stronger. Aizen's durability would have to be listed as At Least Country level, Likely Higher (Tanked Yhwach's Darkness/Shadows). Ichigo is weaker than Yhwach and so is Aizen. Yhwach not once actually took them seriously and candidly handed them their asses when he got a little serious. That's the facts. Being they are weaker, Ichigo bisecting Yhwach is also unknow in terms of AP. And that makes Yhwach a Glass Cannon. There is no factual evidence to back this feat up to give Ichigo/Aizen bump to Moon Level because it's unknown. Going by the only stated things in the manga, Bankai only gives you a 5-10x buff over shikai depending on the user. Even assuming the max for Ichigo would put him in 6-A tier and that's via statement. Upgrades have been denied here on VBW for much less tbqh.

At best for Ichigo and Aizen their AP and Durability should be listed as Unknown, possibly Large Continent level (For x and x reasons) and Yhwach for Durability should be listed as Unknow, At least Large Continent level (Bisected by Ichigo).

And on top of this the Ichigo that Bisected him was far weaker than the Ichigo that got shit stomped.

Again this is barring any calc that backs up these characters.

Note: Nothing is wrong with Yhwach's Statements and feat of about to destroy all 3 dimensions.
 
Yhwach casually elevated the vandenreich pre almighty, pre mimihagi, pre soul-king absorption and pre absorbing ichigos powers. Given this, as well as planet level being a low end for his AP, it's only logical that his casual attacks should be atleast moon level.
 
That's an assumption. Not to mention Yhwach did have Almighty activated aND had absorbed Mimihagi. It still doesn't scale to Ichigo or Aizen. That's like saying Naruto should be Small planet Level just without Kyuubi avatar scaling from Kaguya and Madara.it doesn't work like that. Yhwach's casual AP can range from Country+ to Moon+, just because you have 1 feat at Moon level which is casual for Yhwach doesn't mean he can't do anything lower. The fact that Ichigo is County level and didn't get one shot would mean that Yhwach wasn't using moon level power again ichigo.
 
What proof is there that Yhwach used Moon Level power against Shikai Ichigo? A character who is stated and Calced at Country level.
 
Wait. Not to try and take anything away from Ywhach but........

IF thats true, then does Ywhach being casually Moon Level yet not insta stomping Ichigo who in shikai was Country Level sound like a massive outlier?
 
First upgrades and now downgrades? not only that, but regarding the very same trio. Wondering what will be next.
 
Hm, so despite Yhwach stating he had no room for error against Ichigo in his merged hollow form (His Shikai, not Bankai) He should not scale to a casual Yhwach in his bankai form?

And the other argument is it doesn't look like moon level so it isn't moon level? ┬»\_Òâä_/┬»

These nonsensical threads are getting annoying.
 
LordAizenSama said:
Hm, so despite Yhwach stating he had no room for error against Ichigo in his merged hollow form (His Shikai, not Bankai) He should not scale to a casual Yhwach in his bankai form?
And the other argument is it doesn't look like moon level so it isn't moon level? ┬»\_Òâä_/┬»

These nonsensical threads are getting annoying.
Click to expand...
You're not really understanding my argument if you think im saying the bolded.

1.) Yhwach was knocking around and Toying with a Shikai Ichigo (Country Level) casually.

2.) Yhwach still stomped a Hollow/Quincy Shikai Ichigo casually

3.)Stomped Bankai Ichigo casually.

Its assumed that because Yhwach has Casual Moon level feat Ichigo should scale but that's under the assumptio Yhwach used Moon Level energy against him. Yhwach already proved he can casually use Country Level AP in his exchanges with Shikai Ichigo so how do you guys simply figure Yhwach is using Moon Level energy?


Ichigo and Aizen being At Least Moon Level, Likely Higher is an assumption with no proof that Yhwach used that much energy on them especially considering he's already shown Casual Country Level AP. If Ichigo and Aizen scale to a Casual Yhwach then that can Range from Country Level to Moon Level. And the stated in verse Multipliers would put Ichigo in 6-A tier which is still within Casual Yhwach Territory

Example: Naruto Is in a similar position. He's massively superior to Shin Jr. Naruto doesn't need to go all out to subdue him but are we supposed to assume he can scale to even base Naruto just because Naruto said he wouldn't Hold Back and used RSM or whatever when even Base Naruto is capable of AP greater than BM? No. Naruto even showed he can easily handle Shins in base alone and confirmed by Sasuke to be holding back still. Yhwach may have said stuff but his actions said differently.


So yes, I'll ask again, what definitive proof is their that Yhwach used Moon Level AP against them? The answer is there is none. Its assumption based. Thus the actual Stats should be listed as Unknow with maybe a Possibly Moon Level tag for Ichigo and Aizen.
 
That makes sense. I agree with the OP as well for reasons above. There isnt any evidence that Ywhach was using moon level energy against them and there is no reason he would against Country Level beings anyway. He could even use something like Continent level power against them and it would still be a stomp, like he was doing to them. Especially Ichigo.

Until I see better reasonings, evidence or input, im gonna agree with the downgrade.
 
BarryAllen2.0 said:
LordAizenSama said:
Hm, so despite Yhwach stating he had no room for error against Ichigo in his merged hollow form (His Shikai, not Bankai) He should not scale to a casual Yhwach in his bankai form?
And the other argument is it doesn't look like moon level so it isn't moon level? ┬»\_Òâä_/┬»

These nonsensical threads are getting annoying.
Click to expand...
You're not really understanding my argument if you think im saying the bolded.
1.) Yhwach was knocking around and Toying with a Shikai Ichigo (Country Level) casually.

2.) Yhwach still stomped a Hollow/Quincy Shikai Ichigo casually

3.)Stomped Bankai Ichigo casually.

Its assumed that because Yhwach has Casual Moon level feat Ichigo should scale but that's under the assumptio Yhwach used Moon Level energy against him. Yhwach already proved he can casually use Country Level AP in his exchanges with Shikai Ichigo so how do you guys simply figure Yhwach is using Moon Level energy?


Ichigo and Aizen being At Least Moon Level, Likely Higher is an assumption with no proof that Yhwach used that much energy on them especially considering he's already shown Casual Country Level AP. If Ichigo and Aizen scale to a Casual Yhwach then that can Range from Country Level to Moon Level. And the stated in verse Multipliers would put Ichigo in 6-A tier which is still within Casual Yhwach Territory

Example: Naruto Is in a similar position. He's massively superior to Shin Jr. Naruto doesn't need to go all out to subdue him but are we supposed to assume he can scale to even base Naruto just because Naruto said he wouldn't Hold Back and used RSM or whatever when even Base Naruto is capable of AP greater than BM? No. Naruto even showed he can easily handle Shins in base alone and confirmed by Sasuke to be holding back still. Yhwach may have said stuff but his actions said differently.


So yes, I'll ask again, what definitive proof is their that Yhwach used Moon Level AP against them? The answer is there is none. Its assumption based. Thus the actual Stats should be listed as Unknow with maybe a Possibly Moon Level tag for Ichigo and Aizen.
Click to expand...
1. Because Ichigo had no defense against of the Almighty that's why, take away the almighty and we have a even playing field seen in the final chapter(s)

2. See 1

3. See 1


Other then the fact he preforned a very causal moon level feat? And why not? he considered ichigo's bankai a thread and had it broken as as possible and stop using multiplers, we don't use those here.....
 
@Peter

Your logic fails you. For 1, the Almighty doesn't give Yhwach a boost in power. It allows him to Alter Future events. If Yhwach didn't have the AP to easily harm Ichigo already then using the Almighty wasn't going to help regardless. Secondly, it was never a fair fight regardless, Ichigo isn't nor ever was the equivalent of the SK. Saying he is is a massive Contradiction to his feats. The final chapters show this.


Again, Yhwach preformed a very casual Country level feat as well in beating around Shikai Ichigo. So bringing up his moon level feat is moot and doesn't negate anything I said. And Yhwach praising Ichigo's Bankai doesn't mean anything. So unless you believe Aizen and Ichigo are Yhwach's equals than your argument is invalid. Yhwach has shown Casual Country/Moon power. And correction, you don't use Multipliets not stated in Manga. In bleach, Bankai being 5-10x stronger depending on the user than their shikai is stated by Yoruichi in SS Arc so yeah.


It's Iike I said, there is no definitive proof Yhwach used Moon+ AP against Ichigo and Aizen. Going by what Shikai Ichigo is stated to be in Manga and listed as on this Wiki, he should be Tier 6-A in Bankai. You can't backwards scale Him either. If his Shikai is Country Level and In verse Multipliers is stated, his Bankai is Tier 6-A and that makes sense in verse. Ichigo being hundreds of thousands of times stronger than his shikai is PIS" it contradicts everything he's shown. Other upgrades from other verses are being denied for much less. This would put Yhwach at Tier 6-A in durability.

Even if you want to discount all the finitive proof which is like....really? Facts are Yhwach has shown casual Country Level AP and a Casual Moon level feat. Meaning Casual Yhwach Ranges. And even based on his statements which don't quantify his power, assuming Moon level for Ichigo and Aizen is just that....an assumption. Nothing definitive.
 
In addition to this, I honestly dont see a reason why Ywhach would ever even use Moon Level energy against someone who'd only like Country level, Continent at best using Bankai. Especially when Ywhach had the Almighty which made him above pretty much everyone at the time and easily. The need or the neccessity to use so much power against someone far below that level doesnt make sense.
 
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Bleach-chapter-676.html


http://mangalife.org/read-online/Bleach-chapter-677.html


http://mangalife.org/read-online/Bleach-chapter-678.html


I don't know where this casual Yhwach comes from, if you read the chapters above. Ichigo in just his Merged Hollow Form was matching Yhwach blow for blow and wasn't even using his full power. Yhwach implies he's not holding back with the statement, "Yours in indeed a truly magnificent power, Ichigo!!" and right after, "So formidable...That I no longer have any room for error!", then activates the Almighty. So, he was definitely going all out, lol. Man needed the Almighty to compete with a haxless Ichigo.


Ichigo only started losing when Yhwach was abusing his hax. You know, future manipulation and nigh omniscience? Yhwach was even forced to break his Bankai and Merged Hollow Form because of its power, that's when he started smacking Ichigo.


In the rematch, after absorbing every other Sternritter and increasing his power further, he still gets oneshot by Bankai Ichigo. Due to his Merged Hollow Form being above Yhwach also, this suggest both of these forms are equal in power boost.


Yhwach revives himself and becomes even more powerful, absorbing Aizen and nearly absorbing Ichigo. Ichigo in the end slays him with the original Tensa Zangetsu, the only blade that can kill Yhwach, (will give you details if you want).


What I am saying is, Ichigo definitely scales to Yhwach, no questions asked and Aizen should scale to Ichigo.


Merged Hollow Form (True Shikai) Ichigo should be rated at Planet level. Combine that with Bankai and he would be Planet level+. Aizen scales to Ichigo's strongest form. Yhwach would be Planet level in Base, still Planet level after absorbing all remaining Sternritter and At least Planet level+, likely higher in his "Monster Form" because he was able to absorb Aizen so easilly.


Oh and if you were to backwards scale Ichigo's True Shikai it would be Small Planet level.


Now go upgrade all three.
 
While I think the OP makes a good level of sense and agree to large degree, I've got two issues.

1. Ichigo would have killed Yhwach, if he hadn't used the Almighty to undo his death.

2. The nature of the ending itself.

For #2, simply put: it's all PIS. I agree with the line of logic the OP puts forth but then I remember that Kubo had to end all of this but at the same time was trying to make it a climax as much as possible. So Ichigo got this massive power boost only for Yhwach to hax it away only for then Ichigo to get it back only for it be haxxed again just so the heroes could get more hax to do away with Yhwach's hax so Ichigo could kill him.

It's stupid, it's convoluted and an utter shame but it's what happened.
 
I honestly don't see how people can look at the logic and disregard it....What's funny is that Kaguya is listed as having Inconsistent Durability for the same situation These 3 characters are in with Naruto and Sasuke, its like me saying Naruto should be Small Planet Level in War Arc for injuring Kaguya as much as he did despite the contradictions.

Screw it, can a mod close this? Im tired of looking at people use double standards trying to justify Assumptions.

  • You have Ichigo as Country level in Shikai
  • Inverse multipliers are stated for Bankai (5-10x)
  • Proof that a casual Yhwach has a range for his AP (Country Level - Moon Level)
  • Yet "assume" and accept the high-end despite the contradictions with the massive leap in power.


Like I said, stuff has been rejected her for much less but i guess Bleach is immune to Logic.
 
@BarryAllen2.0

I'm sorry, friend. Because, honestly, you do have a point and you're arguments make perfect sense, at least to me. It's just that I kind of feel like we're in the minority. I apologize for not conveying that properly in my last post.

I read that other thread on this topic and that did not give me a lot hope.

In all honesty, I've never even fully agreed with having Yhwach as high as he is. To me, him absorbing the Soul King doesn't really amount to much, at least at how I look at it. The Soul King holds Soul Society in place however, we've never seen him use any offensive powers. He's basically just there to maintain it as it all is. When Yhwach takes his place, instead of using the power to maintian things, he was going to dissolve the boundries between all the worlds.

The Soul King never did anything to try and stop Yhwach, which would point that he doesn't have any real offensive capability. To me, that strikes me as more a hax that cannot be applied to combat similiar to Princess Celestia moving the Sun. So, really Yhwach wasn't anymore powerful than he ever was, he just access to a particular bit of hax that he did not have before.

I mean, it would make more sense than suddenly having Ichigo jumping from Country Level all the way up to Moon Level, or am I just full of it?

 
@TheC2

No, you're right. Even Shikai Ichigo killed SK, makes no sense for a character supposedly as power to:

  • Be sealed by the Shinigami first of all
  • Killed by a Lesser being
Shikai Ichigo is country level. Going by in verse multipliers, his Bankai would be Tier 6-A, this would put Ichigo on par or a little Higher than Kenpachi. Yhwach would just be glass canon to Continent Level characters. Logically this lines up with the rest of the verse. Not this "At least moon level, Likely Higher" BS. Even the other SR gave Ichigo trouble when they packed him out, shouldn't have happened if Ichigo was as powerful as they are saying.
 
You would need to read the new novel to understand Yhwach's position. The old Soul King or Yhwach's father was already a corpse just like current Yhwach, and how Yhwach's sealed body and energy is still holding the worlds. More info about the Soul King's past will be reveal in Spring 20117 with Hisagi's novel.
 
@BarryAllen

There's also the fact that how would Aizen be anywhere near that level? He was sealed up and had lost the Hyogyoku. No more power increases. He had no way of advancing to that level of power based on his defeat. He was strapped to a reiatsu restraining chair. He did not even use Bankai when he fought Yhwach! I mean if he's Moon Level with just his Shikai, how powerful would he had been using his Bankai?! More powerful than Ichigo, I'm sure. But that didn't happen and there's no explantion of how Aizen became more powerful than when he fought Dangai Ichigo, which left him weakened afterwards. I can see him recovering to a still high level of power but even more powerful than before. It doesn't make sense. Unless, we're trying to say that the two were around that level when they fought in the previous arc, which we know is not true.

When you get down to it, Yhwach being Planet Level throws a lot of gears in the mix that just don't make sense, especially with the character who scale to him.

 
After showing his power, Urahara stated that Aizen's powers grew and he was stronger than when he faced Ichigo. Sealed in a chair.

Same happen to Naruto and Sasuke they jump from Island lvl, to Country lvl to small Planet lvl with a single chakrra transfered. In this case Yhwach stole the reiatsu from tthe Soul King.
 
@AppleLord

The progression of Power for Naruto and Sasuke isn't something that Ichigo and Aizen can be compared to.
 
@AppleLord

I agree with the point you're trying to make but don't bring another verse into the argument.
 
I didn't brought them up first, you compared your taste.

How is energy (power) absorption and stealing any different from energy transfer?
 
Soldier Blue said:
@AppleLord
I agree with the point you're trying to make but don't bring another verse into the argument.
Click to expand...
@Barry is talking about Aizen, Ichigo, Naruto and Sasuke. I don't know with who, cause I'm talking about Yhwach.
 
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