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Possible 2-C or 2-B characters from Klonoa?

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Dino_Ranger_Black

Dino_Ranger_Black

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Hello, everyone. Dino Ranger Black here. I'm here to discuss about the potential stats for 3 characters from the Klonoa franchise. I didn't touch upon this topic before because I was attending a wedding and I was tired of making proper edits for the lead character of the series and additional pages a few days ago. For those of you uninformed about the verse, see here before proceeding on this thread (Don't worry, both categories are very brief).

I played just about every game in the series and read the unfinished webcomic. From what I was able to gather and what was actually confirmed from this comic and this ending to the first game , the dreams Klonoa visits are actual worlds. Of course, the size of them may be in question. I was able to locate a site that translate the dialouge of Klonoa Heroes, due to being a japanese only game. The characters keep referring to the dream they are in as a universe. However, it doesn't go any further than that. Apparently, the source of it all is a being called the Noctis Sol, who stores and maintain balance and energy in all of these worlds. The villian in the comic, Tenebrae Hue, have gain all of the Noctis Sol's powers and energy and the final boss in the first game, Nahatomb, is stated to destroy the world they are in with it's nightmare energy.. (Refer to the ending post).

With all this is mind, is it possible to rate Noctis Sol and Tenebrae Hue 2-C or 2-B while rating Nahatomb from Klonoa 1 3-A or low 2-C with all this information?
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
Is it possible to highlight this topic?
Click to expand...
Let's wait to see how many people respond first. If nobody responds for a few hours, bump the thread, and if that doesn't work, I'll highlight it.
 
These universes all function similarly to our own, I take it? Since I see no reason to assume these aren't universes when they're repeatedly stated to be, over and over again, I've no problem with the revision.
 
Considering how Huepow considers Klonoa's reality to be just a mere dream and the translations you posted, it does seem reasonable to a point. But I just want to poke at a few things.

1) Which word is used for "universe" in the translation, since the word "sekai" can mean both "World" and "universe" depending on context to the best of my knowledge.

2) The English version repeatedly refers to the dream as a "world", which may contradict this, but then again the webcomic (which I'm assuming is official) seems to have stars, which might make this passable.

3) Klonoa would have to be At least Low 2-C since a Tier 2 character is infinitely stronger than a Tier 3 character).

Overall, it looks okay (even if Klonoa's powers don't exactly match other Tier 2s.
 
I am neutral regarding the issue. If Klonoa, and other far more small scale characters, have managed to match them, it seems uncertain. Maybe they are glass cannons, Noctis simply acts as a linchpin/pivot, it is a specific hax unusable for anything else, or a massive Plot Induced Stupidity inconsistency?
 
@Ant

Well, it could easily just be a similar case to Magolor, Solaris and the Time Eater, where we give the feats to the character but don't scale it to the characters who beat them as it's inconsistent with their regular power levels.
 
@Reppunzan I can't answer that question since Klonoa Heroes doesn't have an english version. Plus, I'm not an expert at the language, I'm sorry....

@Ant Actually, Klonoa or anyone else for that matter never fought Tenebrae Hue or the Noctis Sol....yet. Like I said, the comic is inconclusive. Ask for Nahatomb, I'm only speaking for the the one in Klonoa 1 since he's seemingly protrayed different in Heroes. In the former game, Klonoa never fought him directly, save for the second phase when he was absorbed by him. They used special moon cannons pass through generations for ocassions like this. Even then, they can only hurt him if they fire all the cannons at the same time, which they have to do twice and Klonoa dealing the final blow.
 
@The Everlasting In other words, the 3 characters I mention might recieve the ratings while it's a possible outlier for Klonoa. No problems with that, Klonoa never struck me as a mutliversal character to begin with.
 
Overall, no. He never fought the Tenebrae Hue or Noctis Sol and due to the comics being inconclusive, we might never know what will happan next. Ask for Klonoa 1, he only attacked Nahatomb during the second phase(which is a possible outlier), and they have to utilized special weapons in the first and third phase order to defeat him.
 
So......can we conclude this thread with a 2-C or 2-B Noctis Sol and Tenebrae Hue, a 3-A or low 2-C Nahatomb, while regarding Klonoa being involved an outlier?
 
I suppose so, although I am not informed enough to say for certain.
 
I guess I'll start making the pages tomorrow then. I just need to know wether I should give them either a 2-C or 2-B rating. Until then, good night.
 
If he maintains the existence of over 1000 universes, it probably means a 2-B rating.
 
Because I keep getting bugged about this and I literally just finished most of the series....

Not seeing how Klonoa is only country to continent level since in Moonlight Museum random artists were capable of smashing the moon into fragments (which is the entire plot of the game and why Klonoa is collecting fragments in it, said moon was also much bigger than the real moon according to Hewpoe) and Ghadius' power was causing constant solar eclipses which I calced to be yottaton grade. Also considering that there are 4 multiversal feats in the series and Klonoa and Popka literally tanked a multverse buster even without powerscaling and defeated Nahatomb who has multiversal power and confirmed at least universal durability? I made several calcs for the series though a couple were rather rough around the edges.

For what it's worth I wouldn't take King of Sorrow's statement as legit, and I'm like 99% sure Heroes feats shouldn't apply to Klonoa's main incarnation anyways

As for speed, Klonoa and Popka are able to outpace light particles in Klonoa 2, the general cast can move at comparable speed to meteors, and Ghadius' TK was moving the moon at thousands of times the speed of sound in addition to Klonoa moving in tandem with a beam of light from a refracting light source but eh, still have a couple more games to finish in the series. Doubt the series will get any higher though since one of the games I am in the middle of is a volleyball game and another is a remake
 
Hmm. Can you provide some sources please?
 
Right so....

Ghadius' TK power:

http://youtu.be/d5H1OAsUops?t=2214

http://youtu.be/IKKpsgVqxQ0?t=130

As stated in the sun temple, Ghadius' power is constantly causing solar eclipses after being amped by his moon pendant. The monsters that are transformed are even referred to as eclipse monsters. Basically? This means that he was constantly moving the moon in a span of 8 seconds to block the sun. Therefore, I will presume that the moon was travelled its diameter each time the sun was blocked

Diameter of the moon = 3474800 meters

Mass of the moon = 7.34767309e22 kg

Velocity = 3474800 / 8 = 434350 m/s

KE = 0.5mv^2

0.5 * 7.34767309e22 * 434350^2 = 6.93105718e33 joules or 1.65656242 yottatons of TNT equivalent and this is if he only moved it once. In reality he was casually maintaining solar eclipses for a large period of time. Klonoa > Ghadius

Moon busting:

http://imgur.com/a/EMrp7

The entire plot of the game is that several artists broke the moon into fragments and have hidden it around various areas, which is why Klonoa collects moon fragments in the game. The hole they left in the moon is actually visible near the end of the game. I disabled the foreground and sprites and got to see it fully visible without anything obscuring it.

Diameter of the moon = 3474800 meters

200 / 256 = 0.78125

0.78125 * 3474800 = 2714687.5 meters for the diameter of the busted fragment

Volume of a sphere = 4/3¤Çr^3

4/3 * ¤Ç * 1357343.75^3 = 1.04750994e19 m^3

Density of the moon = 3340 kg/m^3

1.04750994e19 * 3340 = 3.4986832e22 kg

Lunar escape velocity = 2380 m/s

KE = 0.5mv^2

0.5 * 3.4986832e22 * 2380^2 = 9.90897056e28 joules or 23.683 exatons of TNT equivalent

This is a gargantuan lowball as the moon was in actuality much larger than our own

http://i.imgur.com/LmztjNs.png

Relativistic Klonoa:

The Temple of the Sun needs the orbs restored for sunlight to pass through the barrier. Said orbs are constantly refracting light in the vein of a discoball. Once Klonoa gets all four of them, the path to the altar is opened (as explained by Solare and Soleil, both names of which can mean sun or sunlight) and he reacts as a beam of light is emitted through a refracting light barrier, travelling only in a straight line (the swirls that you see are just asthetic light reflections coming from the barrier's entrance and are blatantly not connected to the actual light that is raised in a straight beam. Look closely here: http://youtu.be/d5H1OAsUops?t=2254 )

Level is also referred to as "Between Light and Darkness"

http://youtu.be/d5H1OAsUops?t=2096

http://youtu.be/d5H1OAsUops?t=36m24s

http://i.imgur.com/8oH5k1g.png

52 / 130 = 0.4c

Number of dreams exploding survived:

http://klonoa.the-comic.org/comics/30/

The Night Sun constantly maintains the existence of the dreams of millions of worlds, making it a multiversal entity by default. Worth noting? It states that all of its energy is being unleashed and Klonoa and Popka are able to endure said energy being released on them despite being knocked back by its power

Calculating the number of universes Klonoa and Popka tanked....

107,602,707,791 humans have ever lived on earth and as a lowball 2,000,000 should work

107,602,707,791 * 2,000,000 = 2.15205416e17 dreams which is multiversal on a scale of 215.205416 quadrillio

I have plenty of proof dreams are equivalent to other universes and realities of their own if more is needed but I believe ample evidence was already submitted here. Also worth noting is that the main villain of this comic empowers himself with a multiversal power source as well

Outrunning light particles:

http://youtu.be/4WwI3Gaho4M?t=190

Klonoa can run past, outjump and even throw moos much faster than the light particles can chase him before they catch up to him. The fastest action possible is Popka tossing him though I can't find footage of this on YT it would be low FTL (I did it while playing the game so I can confirm this secondhand)

Said enemies are referred to as lightbugs (Dark Sea of Tears level) http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/374317-klonoa-2-lunateas-veil/faqs/14435

And the gimmick of the level is that since it has been turned dark, only by destroying the lightbugs to release their light particles can light be restored to certain parts of the area, lighting up as you move along in real time rather than lighting up instantly meaning that Klonoa moved in tandem with them

Nahatomb's power and bare minimum durability:

http://youtu.be/d5H1OAsUops?t=3240

6 dreams serve as Nahatomb's power source, and his purpose is to destroy Phantomile which is shown in the very cutscene to be universe sized. Ghadius knows that he cannot survive its destruction, but Nahatomb indeed can survive the universal destruction

Klonoa is able to tank attacks from Nahatomb and harm his forms before a moon cannon is required to finish him off. Klonoa 2 and onwards era is much stronger and able to straight up beat Nahatomb and harm him in a volleyball game (canonically Nahatomb is the final boss)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hro3nxJ8p-E
 
Well, I am not the best person to ask, but the dreams of a human are ephemeral things. I am extremely doubtful that Klonoa should be rated as a 2-B entity, if his regular showings are closer to a 5-C scale. It should probably be treated as a massive inconsistency, or as that the dream energy works very differently from a big bang.
 
The concept of dreams in Klonoa is so far divorced from our own that it really doesn't matter what they are called. Each dream demonstrated has been shown to have celestial bodies of our own world including moons, stars, earth equivalent planet, nebulas, cosmic clouds, etc and are visibly universe sized as well as referred to as their own universes or realities for that matter. IE each character only has one parallel dream which does not fade away even when they wake up nor replaced when they go back to sleep, as blatantly shown in Empire of Dreams.

General showings are not closer to the 5-C scale. The moon breaker was done by absolute fodder in the verse who don't even fight but rather work as artists and that was the earliest game in the series no less. The moon TK was done extremely casually by Ghadius with the moon pendant and maintained for a noticably long amount of time, and Klonoa is leagues above Ghadius, considering he was able to go toe to toe with Nahatomb, who Ghadius admitted he would have to sacrifice his life to.

For the Night Sun's explosion? It is visibly stated that its energy is released all at once, which Klonoa and Popka tank being released. Said Dream Stream had pressure and was not passive, which Klonoa later notes as the Dream Stream's energy released onto him had gotten even stronger. Obviously? It would be different from a big bang, since the big bang is the birth of a universe, not the destruction which Klonoa and Popka tanked. By sheer scale of the objects alone Klonoa and Popka would be very well into the multiversal phase.
 
Well, I am extremely doubtful. Regardless whether 5-C is fodder level or not, the scale difference would be so vast as it is ridiculous to think that any regular characters whatsoever could pose a threat to Klonoa within the games. It should probably be treated as an extreme plot induced stupidity outlier.

I am willing to hear input from other staff members about the other feats though, but am currently very busy with the daily backlog.
 
If you doubt it I would appreciate some arguments that don't have to do with incredulity. As for Ghadius' feat? Honestly it should be far above 5-C considering how long he was maintaining the eclipse anyways, and was capable of doing it as long as he wanted before his defeat.

If the feats are outliers for Klonoa, they would be outliers for Nahatomb, Night Sun, etc since Klonoa is demonstrably above them and has feats on their level, again, without powerscaling. Considering there are two moon to planetary showings that are mere bit feats for both respective fodder characters and 4 multiversal feats along with a very reliable universal statement? I fail to see how there is a gap in feats.

In order to make platforming games playable, enemies are needed to be there in the first place. Furthermore, it would mean that the enemies are strong, not that Klonoa is weak. More on point, the only boss Klonoa was shown to visibly struggle against after the first game was a robot he beat previously while it was in peak condition (which is PIS to make for a chase scene in the first place and doesn't even make sense in the context of its own scene) and a boss in the snowboard levels which only happened because he was cut off from his powers in that scene. Is every RPG character ever not that strong because they fight fodder in mid gameplay which is a "threat" to them? I would go with no on that one, if we go by this logic then an enormous amount of video game characters will need to be moved many, many tiers down.
 
Hmm. You might be right, but then I do not have much time and energy for discussion threads, as I constantly monitor all of the edits within the wiki. I would appreciate some feedback from other staff members before this is accepted.
 
If the feats are consistent, which they seem to be, I don't have a problem with the upgrade.
 
Okay then. Then I suppose that it seems okay for him to perform some updates to the Klonoa profiles.
 
Okay. If you need profiles temporarily unlocked, you can mention it here.
 
I'm sorry, everyone. I was quite busy this week. ProtOrnitierX, if you please, would you mind elaborating in a quick paragraph in what stats you propose for the Klonoa characters you have in mind with very brief reasons?
 
My proposed updates would be (I had a good lifting strength feat in mind earlier but I forgot what it was so....)

Note that I am not accounting for Heroes incarnations of characters as I do not understand Japanese and they are separate anyways. Also I believe the cast may have time freezes in the volleyball game

Ghadius

Powers and abilities: add telekinesis

Attack potency: At least moon level+ (superior to the artists who broke the moon apart) | At least large planet level with the Moon Pendant (could ceaselessly maintain solar eclipses)

Durability: At least moon level+ (superior to the artists)

Speed: At least MHS+ attacking speeds (TK moved the moon at mach 1276.8521)

Range: Thousands of kilometers

Note: I am somewhat skeptical about scaling Ghadius to Nahatomb's general level as he implied he would be killed by Nahatomb's dream destruction and was not demonstrated in cutscenes or otherwise to have given Klonoa difficulty

Klonoa

Powers and abilities: add soul hax as he is able to harm non-corpreal ghostly beings for now

Attack potency: Multiverse level (can damage beings such as Nahatomb and beings on his own general level)

Durability: Multiverse level (was unharmed by the destruction of roughly 215 quadrillion dreams)

Speed: Faster than light (Can outpace light particles in the Dark Sea of Tears)

Intelligence: Quite high. Is a resourceful and skilled fighter and leader, so much so that Garlen planned to use him as the brain of his robotic empire in Dream Champ Tournament

Tenebrae Hue

Speed: Faster than light (his multi-mini-minions gave Klonoa and Popka trouble)

Nahatomb

Attack potency: Multiverse level (Powered by six dreams)

Durability: At least universal, possibly multiverse level (was going to survive the destruction of Phantomile)

Speed: Faster than light (Can keep up with post-Klonoa 2 Klonoa)

King of Sorrow

Attack potency: At least universe level (can harm Klonoa)

Durabilitiy: At least universe level, higher with shields

Speed: Faster than light (On par with Klonoa)

Intelligence: would just add in that he was the prophet Baguji

Guntz

Attack potency: Multiverse level (on par with Klonoa)

Durability: Multiverse level (on par with Klonoa)

Speed: Faster than light

Leorina

Unsure where exactly she stands but I would think her cursed form is in the same general range as the King of Sorrow and even without that her range was pretty high as she could shoot a bell from many meters away and destroyed a lake or sea (forgot which would have to relook at the scene later)

Suiryu

Too much of an unknown for me to comfortably place anywhere TBH though I would say he's above the Wonderswan artists which puts him at moon level

Lolo

Attack potency: Multiverse level (powers the wind ring, can harm Popka)

Durability: At least universe level (went toe to toe with beings like Nahatomb without transforming)

Speed: Faster than light

Pango

No clue

Janga

No clue

Chipple

Same stats at Guntz
 
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